How to kill high valor Kataphraktoi

[ichi]

In every game there comes a time when I find myself fighting the Byz and their high valor Kataphraktoi generals. These guys are tough, and can easily handle low valor spears, swords, and other cav.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/ichijinkats.jpg

Here I have told a unit of Jinetes to melee with a Kat unit, then immediately pulled that unit back. When the Kat chased, I surrounded it with 3 other Jinetes and made very quick work. This exploits the Kats one weakness, which is their slow speed. This screenie is from the end of the game, when all that was left was the Byz gen.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/ichiturcokats.jpg

Here I have done essentially the same thing, but with Turcoman Horse Archers. The Turcos are set on skirmish (as were the Jinetes) so not a lot of micromanagement.

Elsewhere on the field at this time my other 12 units where in standard formation (missiles in front, inf to the rear, cav on the flanks) holding a small knoll against the other Byz units.

ichi

[katank]

aaawwww, don't kill poor innocent katanks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Nicely done.

Doesn't matter how much valor a unit has when arrowheads are going through it.

Some questions:

1.) Your jinettes are three ranks deep. Did you set them up that way. If so, why?

2.) It's an article of faith around here that skirmish is useless for missile cavalry, but you were able to use it and it seemed to work fine, even for short-ranged jinettes. How much micro did you have to do?

3.)Could you have done this if the Kataphracts weren't isolated?

4.) Did you use the "bait" unit to lure the kats head on into a trap, or did the other units close in from the sides?

[ichi]

Jinetes have 4 javs per man, and at 3 ranks deep they last a little longer and survive a charge better.

Skirmish works fine as long as the enemy doesn't have multiple units trying to get your cav archers. In this case there was zero micro, other than the initial melee bait and then back to skirmish.

When I tried to do this while the Kats were still close to other units it required much more micromanagement.

Then I found that by skirmishing just behind the enemy lines at a distance, and shooting at the Kats, they approached my units. Once they were semi-isolated I switched to melee, engaged the Kats, then withdrew the unit, drawing the Kats (ever-so -slowly) away from the rest of the army. Once isolated I simply sent the other units to shoot, and when the Kats went thru them they fell back and to the sides, thus surrounding the Kats.




Quote[/b] ]poor innocent katanks
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Now you know that I have always been a proponent of Porno Cav as the best Byz Cav, but when you get V4 and above Kataphraktoi you have anything but a poor 'lil ol' horsey unit - very few units in the SP game create such a problem as these guys do.

ichi

[gaijinalways]

Actually, I have found that the surround and smash works pretty well with these guys as long as you time it right. Sometimes I find that the missile approach doesn't work as well depending on the armor class of the general's unit. Also, if they are moving, the number of casualties seems lower, especially for jinnettes who I often have a problem with firing accurately (question, what is the morale and valor of your jinnettes in the battle pic you posted?). Sometimes a unit in front as a magnet and the javs behind works better, but just the magnet with several axes falling behind often does the job for me. I have plenty of general scalps on expert to prove it The problem is timing and sometimes using a strong enough unit as bait so that the general's unit will rush it. I have even used crossbows for this purpose; shooting at that unit with spears or swords nearby but not close enough to catch the rush, close enough though to hit the Karp's flanks

[ichi]

The Jinetes are each Valor 2

ichi

[mfberg]

Horse x-bows, rent 'em, bribe 'em, build 'em.

As turks, vs 7* byz heir in lithuania

2 v2 80 man horse x-bows took out 96 v4 silver kats (of 210 kats in the battle) and 110+ byz inf and spears before the melee even started.

Just catch them in a crossfire and keep backing away from the main force.

mfberg

[Kristaps]

hehehe, i once had an unhinged loon kat prince while playing byzantines. however, in addition to chasing shadows in the moonlight, the guy was brave beyond belief. i sent him on a suicide trip to a sicilian infested province.

i managed the battle myself and to my amazement, the loon with his body-guards routed the whole norman bunch (about 1000 mixed unit type army including a couple units of royal bodyguards). of course, the first to fall was the enemy general who charged foolishly uphill against the kats.

the next turn, i sent the doomed heir to an island garrisoned by 600 sicilian spears and feudal men at arms. i autoresolved but still came out victorious and kickin...

[katank]

yep, katanks are amazing in SP. they can kill through entire armies.

however, what about boyars? if they are not wiped out by the rebels, their royal family can be very powerful.

once in a nov game, my boyar prince killed 2 katank princes.

jinettes and mtd x-bows probably couldn't out duel the boyar's archery either.

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Boyars rule. They eat the Horde in breakfast. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
_

[katank]

agreed. silver boyars own all in early.

any good counters to them?

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (katank @ April 22 2004,03:26)]agreed. silver boyars own all in early.

any good counters to them?
I realy hate them when I play the danes in early. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[katank]

well, huscarles come to mind at mention of Danes and sacrifice fast cav like steppe or preferably alan merc to tie them up first.

anyone found a more effective way though? perhaps massed archery with protection?

[Brutal DLX]

Pretty standard tactics for both cases. Hold them in melee and kill them with ranged (preferrably arbalesters or xbows, arrows are not that effective against highly armoured targets). In early, you will have to seperate them, draw them away from the main battle, hold with spears and flank with AP units for best results, however, you will probably still have higher losses in most cases.

[andrewt]

Just use Huscarles against everything in early if you use the Danes. I had no problem with either Boyars or Kats. Against Boyars, I just routed the rest of the Novgorod army while making Huscarles chase the Boyars around. After the rest of the army was routed, I just chased the Boyars with multiple Huscarle units. They didn't kill many with their arrows and once they got into melee they were slaughtered.

Kats are even easier. You don't need to chase them around. An equal valor Huscarle unit can take them. They have similar stats in melee but the AP of the Huscarles and their unit size (60) makes all the difference. If I can flank attack with another Huscarle unit, the Kats rout in no time.

In my Spanish game, I conquered the entire Iberian peninsula and North Africa leaving the Almos with only 2 provinces. I sat tight until I got Lancers so Kats were no problem for me.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ April 20 2004,23:24)]Then I found that by skirmishing just behind the enemy lines at a distance, and shooting at the Kats, they approached my units. Once they were semi-isolated I switched to melee, engaged the Kats, then withdrew the unit, drawing the Kats (ever-so -slowly) away from the rest of the army. Once isolated I simply sent the other units to shoot, and when the Kats went thru them they fell back and to the sides, thus surrounding the Kats.
More and more, it seems that putting missile cav far forward and managing them before the main clash is the secret of using the little rascals effectively.

[ichi]

Absolutely. I have trouble when I get to tricky, or wait too long to pull em. I do best when I react quickly, not waiting until they get trapped.

sometimes I bring 4-8 cav archers in the first wave of giant battles. Hold my main force back, and skirmish with the mounted archers. When they tun out of ammo, withdraw them and bring on the next wave to me my army a 'balanced' one.

Then when I attack some of the enemy units are either diminished or tired from chasing.

ichi

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ April 23 2004,00:08)]Absolutely. I have trouble when I get to tricky, or wait too long to pull em. I do best when I react quickly, not waiting until they get trapped.

sometimes I bring 4-8 cav archers in the first wave of giant battles. Hold my main force back, and skirmish with the mounted archers. When they tun out of ammo, withdraw them and bring on the next wave to me my army a 'balanced' one.

Then when I attack some of the enemy units are either diminished or tired from chasing.

ichi
Ah ha. First disruption, then destruction.

It's nice to use a unit that won't be on the verge of routing when its away from the rest of the army and playing tag with a much more powerful unit.

Jinettes start with 2 morale, compared to Horse Archers and Turcoman, which start out with zero. However, jinettes have to get much closer to the big, mean unit to do any damage. Maybe it's a wash. Maybe not.

[edited p.s.: Actually, it's -1 morale for Turcoman and HA]

[katank]

their poor morale is exactly what makes morale upgrades even more important than armor for HAs.

otherwise, the skirmishing without ammo and/or disheartened by constant retreat would have them routing off the map in no time

[ichi]

I think that the Constant retreat penalty is reset when the unit fights, so after a few skirmishes I sometimes let the Jinetes engage for just a second

ichi

[Frankymole]

Quote[/b] (gaijinalways @ April 21 2004,11:45)](question, what is the morale and valor of your jinnettes in the battle pic you posted?).
Tip: you can tell a unit's valour by looking at how many pennants (the small triangular flags, not the unit banner) it is flying.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ April 24 2004,19:55)]I think that the Constant retreat penalty is reset when the unit fights, so after a few skirmishes I sometimes let the Jinetes engage for just a second

ichi
Now that's an important thing to know.

Frankymole, you caught me good. I didn't even look.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[Mablung]

My Ktank prince, nothing This guy without ever being in battle was 15 valour He had killer instinct and pride (he was still a 7star with 7 acumen). Is that a fresh out of the box record or what I call him the battlefield assassin and I am going to try and make him a jedi He already has the Almo Khalif to his name. There is virtually no way to take this guy down without losing 500 troops. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif