Multiplayer Games: Fighting General isnt a good id

[M.Cornelius Marcellus]

Multiplayer Games: Fighting General isnt a good idea?

In Multiplayer Games I always see veteran players using Cav unit for general.
The general is most of times protected and does not engage battle till the final phase as:
1 last resource: to stop final rout of wavering units
2 chasing unit.

But I could verify in almost all the battles fought in MP that:
1) I noticed that In almost every battle the general before being killed or captured begins to run; i. e. the general doesn t die or is captured in melee before routing himself,
2) Once your melee units begin to run 80 % percent of time the battle is lost and
3) the general unit, which was looking at the battle till that moment, could only be employed at last 90 % of time to run after few seconds following all the other troops.

So I want suggest a totally different way of use and deploy your general.

Choose your general as the stronger (i. e. upper valor and morale) unit of your melee shock infantry troops.

Place your general at the center of your line of infantry.

Use your general as any other one of your hand to hand unit , but always in the center of your unit line in the melee phase of the battle.
He will not run as first because he cannot be flanked easily, he is in the center, and he is the best unit on the field in morale and combat capablity.

Now you have one cavalry unit more then your enemy.
It is likely that you can conterattack any of his trying in flanking unit and have one cavarly unit more to cause the first enemy rout.

At this first rout probably your enemy will use his general and will throw him into battle.
But maybe it is too late cause his army is beginning to rout …

I used this tactic many times in MP games even against veterans and seemed to work.
But I couldnt see any veteran thinking of using a different unit type as general than cavalry.

Is this tactic so silly? Or so stupid? Does any veteran think of it? Or do i miss them online?
To all veterans and not: which way do u use ur general?
Good bye all

Marcus Cornelius


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[son of spam]

Well, using a cav gen has the advantage that your gen can run away faster http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

EDIT: Welcome to the forum http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Nigel]

Wellcome Marcus,

Was it you, who routed me and my allies in the battle the other day ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

Anyway, I use my general as cav, as it seems to be what everyone else is doing. If you find your alternative tactic is working, it cannot be so silly.

There are posts around here arguing that you can use any cheap unit for general, if you only use him behind your main army anyway. But if you want him to fight along with your soldiers right from the start, you really want to protect him well. Loosing him sends a big morale penalty (8 poits for the first few seconds) through your whole army and can mean the breaking of your fighting melee troops.

As for myself, my generals seem to keep getting themselves killed well in the middle of the battle. But more than half of the time my troops recover and still win the fight. So who needs a general anyway (j/k http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ).


But I think, whatever works is a good tactic. So there is nothing wrong with a general on foot. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

[katank]

yeah, there is also less need to use your general in wedge which would get him killed. (wedge more for cav).

well, make your general a foot knight or some other tough unit and it should be a good idea.

you should definitely pump him up.

if your center caves, you are screwed anyhow so I don't see much of a problem with this.

all in all, interesting tactic, who needs cav general anyhow? silly rule.

personally, in the SP campaign, I like infantry or even missile commanders as I don't have to risk them. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Navaros]

i always boost my General to the hilt and make him a Cav unit

i am not gonna take a melee unit for my Gen. that means if he gets engaged and happens to lose, it's over for you, FOR SURE. at least with a Cav Gen then there is the possiblity he will be able to retreat once engaged and live to fight some more

[ichi]

There are two disadvantages to making your General a strong infantry and fighting with him:

First, the General has a tendency to get killed prior to the unit routing, and when the General is killed or captured it can break your entire army's morale.

Second, I want to have a very mobile General, one who can provide support to wherever it is needed. The game counts flags and assigns morale penalties, so just moving a General unit into an area where your troops may be flag-outnumbered can help. Having a unit near to a Gen helps its morale.

And despite what you say, most vets do not wait to commit their General until it is too late. A well-timed flank by a General has broken my back many times. A Cav General, held in reserve, can also defend against a flanking cav. There is a fine line between using your Gen last and waiting too long.

By bringing a Cav Gen that is not pumped up, I save florins to spend on my fighters. I love it when I see pumped up Gens on the other side, because I know that money came from somewhere, and its usually from the front lines.

I can almost guarantee you that if you place your Gen in melee, the good players will focus a little extra energy on him, trying to knock him out. Some vets even use their Gen as bait, knowing that there is a high premium placed on killing Gens in this game. More than once I have seen a Gen unit placed on the edge of jeopardy, only to be pulled back in the nick of time and the chasing enemy units surrounded.

I understand what you are saying, that if you do not use your General you are fighting with 15 units. I use mine, I just use him last. I also play the Hungarians a lot, and usually use a Szek as my Gen, and he shoots instead of just sitting, which effectively adds an archer to my army.

I also understand what you are saying about the vets not looking for change. Some vets are constantly trying new ideas, others are refining the tried and true techniques. There is a lot of discussion and comparison within clans and between the best of the best. After tens of thousands of tests, the consensus is to take a Cav Gen, and that you should not fight with him until absolutely necessary.

ichi

[Gregoshi]

Welcome to the Org Marcus. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Like the way you challenge convention. I think there is too much Well, everyone else is doing it mentality in the online community. You get an attaboy from me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

I'll move this to the Jousting Field for further discussion. Marcus, you will be able to reply to any posts in the Jousting Field - you just can't start a new topic there.

[Brutal DLX]

As ichi already mentioned, having an infantry general at the centre of your frontline is a dangerous thing to do. Mainly because an experienced player will focus on it (without losing sight of what is going on in other places) and also due to the fact that this general can die like any other soldier in his unit, and you cannot be sure he will be amongst the last to get killed.
This is especially amplified by the fact that you cannot pump up your general unit beyond v4 w3a3, and there are no V&Vs as in the SP game to boost his health or any other combat stats.
So, trading off the mobility of a cav general for an additional free cav unit whose possible extinction doesn't have a general impact on the whole army isn't worth the unpredictability of a general's unit fighting in the frontline from the get-go.
If you want to take an infantry general, then I'd say he would be best placed in the second line, from where he can give morale support, quite literally, and can be thrown into the frontline to prevent it from breaking. However, then you will likely lose the ability to do the same with a cav general, but also be able to assist quickly in other locations or doing a rear or flanking attack.
What I think is viable in certain situations, is taking a hybrid or purely ranged general, like longbows, handgunners, arqs which can be upgraded more efficiently due to the discount they get. But then you have to change your gameplan accordingly...

[_Marcus_]

Hello all, hello ichi,

I will answer to your post because it is the most detailed and argued. But I thank you all for replies to my post.

You said: “There are two disadvantages to making your General a strong infantry and fighting with him:
First, the General has a tendency to get killed prior to the unit routing, and when the General is killed or captured it can break your entire army's morale.”

All the tactic I described is based on the exact opposite assumption
In hundreds of battle on MP fields I fought the general was not killed before running (unless shot up by artillery). It is obvious that if this is not true my tactic is pure shit. But as far as I saw, unless u dont put him in wedge formation, the general before dying runs.

You said “Second, I want to have a very mobile General, one who can provide support to wherever it is needed”

You got now 1 cav more to support where u want. And u dont fear to loose it because it is not the general. Maybe your added cav can help u to win those cav battles that sometimes take place before the melee phase. All of us know that 90 % of times the army that has cav left for the final phase (or more than the enemy) can flank and wins.

You said “Having a unit near to a Gen helps its morale”
I cannot quantify how much the proximity to a general helps ur units. Someone can tell me precisely the modifying combact factor been involved (maybe it is a good answer for another topic)? Anyway in my tactic as i said the general is in the middle of the melee. Is there any other place nearer to others of your units?


You said: “And despite what you say, most vets do not wait to commit their General until it is too late. A well-timed flank by a General has broken my back many times. A Cav General, held in reserve, can also defend against a flanking cav. There is a fine line between using your Gen last and waiting too long.”

You are right: there is a fine line between using your general last and waiting too long. My tactic tries to make that line very thin, in 1 word to increase the possibility of enemy errors because now is important for him to choose well the exact .moment in which take the decision to throw the general in the melee. Anyway I agree with you: a veteran can do it.

You said:”By bringing a Cav Gen that is not pumped up, I save florins to spend on my fighters. I love it when I see pumped up Gens on the other side, because I know that money came from somewhere, and its usually from the front lines”

My general is pumped and is there in the middle of front line. No money is subtracted to my fighters.

You said that: “I can almost guarantee you that if you place your Gen in melee, the good players will focus a little extra energy on him, trying to knock him out. Some vets even use their Gen as bait, knowing that there is a high premium placed on killing Gens in this game. ”

It is good: my general is pumped up. If they put 1 unit more on him they are substracting it from another place. As my general is pumped up probably will resist till his front is breaking somewhere else. My way of employing general is similar as using it as a bait as u said even if he is fighting and, I admit, there is some risk more ... but he is pumped up he should resist enough before running.

Anyway I admit that my tactic is not superior to the “veterans cavalry general”. It is only different. But I did not see anyone trying to apply something similar on-line, or I missed that.

You said: “I also understand what you are saying about the vets not looking for change.” Never said that: I see many veterans trying for new and coming into games with fool armies at a first look but very enjoing and unexpectedly effective, even if the traditional general cav 4 pav 6 inf 5 cav has “security” on its side.


Marcus Cornelius

[CBR]

Hi Marcus and welcome to Org http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

I have seen generals being used as a pav or even a peasant that the player then withdrew when the battle started. Maybe extreme ways of doing something different heh.

If the general is something like a v3 CMAA then he will be in a good unit so I dont see that as big disadvantage.

One good thing about a cav general is that he can always move out of trouble. You will always have some kind of reserve and that might as well be your general.

I wouldnt say its a bad thing at all. Battles are different and sometimes most of my cav is wasted first (including general) and sometimes my general acts as the reserve, used in the final phase breaking the enemy and chasing.

Having him as a good infantry unit means you can worry less about sending all cav out to fight. Im always good at wasting my cav general so maybe I should use something different.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


CBR

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Hi Marcus,

First, as you are new to this forum, may I recommand the use of the quote /quote function? Made post much more readable when quoting people

Here we start;


Quote[/b] ]You said: “There are two disadvantages to making your General a strong infantry and fighting with him:
First, the General has a tendency to get killed prior to the unit routing, and when the General is killed or captured it can break your entire army's morale.”

All the tactic I described is based on the exact opposite assumption
In hundreds of battle on MP fields I fought the general was not killed before running (unless shot up by artillery). It is obvious that if this is not true my tactic is pure shit. But as far as I saw, unless u dont put him in wedge formation, the general before dying runs

Honestly, it'll depend on florins levels, general tactics, etc... At high florins, with a general unit (or rather high morale / valour) facing one ennemy, with flank protected, it's likely that the general will die before routing.

At low florins level, with a general hobilar at v0 wandering alone, routing is way more likely.

Marcus, the option you present actually makes it way more likely for the general to die than to rout. In many MP games you'll see the general feeling mainly because its unit is NOT used as you present it.


Quote[/b] ]You said “Second, I want to have a very mobile General, one who can provide support to wherever it is needed”

You got now 1 cav more to support where u want. And u dont fear to loose it because it is not the general. Maybe your added cav can help u to win those cav battles that sometimes take place before the melee phase. All of us know that 90 % of times the army that has cav left for the final phase (or more than the enemy) can flank and wins.


I'd agree with that. Whether the support is a general or any other unit does not make a difference.


Quote[/b] ]You said “Having a unit near to a Gen helps its morale”
I cannot quantify how much the proximity to a general helps ur units. Someone can tell me precisely the modifying combact factor been involved (maybe it is a good answer for another topic)? Anyway in my tactic as i said the general is in the middle of the melee. Is there any other place nearer to others of your units?

I have yet to see any evidence that Gen helps morale for nearby unit.

A pumped up general is not invicible... and is a great target.

I like to have a fast horse archer as a general... something like a turcohorse v1... As CBR puts it, what I really look for is the ability to run out of trouble fast

Also, esthetics matters; let's face it a cavalry general looks better than a halberd one.

Louis,

[t1master]

kerns make a 'pretty' general http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[M.Cornelius Marcellus]

HI LUIS,



Quote[/b] ]Honestly, it'll depend on florins levels, general tactics, etc... At high florins, with a general unit (or rather high morale / valour) facing one ennemy, with flank protected, it's likely that the general will die before routing.

At low florins level, with a general hobilar at v0 wandering alone, routing is way more likely.


I must add some specification, maybe it wasnt clear before that i was talking about 10000k/15000 games.

QUOTE]Also, esthetics matters; let's face it a cavalry general looks better than a halberd one.[/QUOTE]

My general is never a spear unit:
10000K - Fmaa v3 or Cmaa v3or Militia seargent v4
15000K - Fmaa v4 or Militia seargent v4.

Never alone always in the center of the front with flank protected.

Marcus Cornelius

[shingenmitch2]

Hi Marcus

"All the tactic I described is based on the exact opposite assumption In hundreds of battle on MP fields I fought the general was not killed before running (unless shot up by artillery)."

Your assumption is incorrect and you must be very lucky http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif. Your general can be the first man to die in his unit. It has happened to me many times.

My understanding is that the game skews things so that he won't be as likely to die, however, he can die from arrows or fighting and it is not a given that the unit will be routing before he dies.

-------

If a general is fighting he may die at any time. Front rankers are fighting immediately for the whole duration of battle, thus ur general is susseptable to dieing at any time during the WHOLE fight.

With a reserve cav. gen. I am fast, and thus can get into the fight wherever i need to quickly, but because I've held him back, I have not exposed him to death for the whole battle. I don't have to worry about the "General die, Army morale hit" at all, until I actually commit him.

And that is a morale hit worth worrying about -- it is the only way your entire army can take a negative penalty at once. And we all know that the game is all about breaking morale.

[Dionysus9]

Marcus, I've been doing that for a year and a half and it's always worked ok for me.

Funny thing is that when your v3-4 CMAA general actually does die, it seems to be at the begginning of the battle more often than not-- and it doesn't tipe your units over the rout threshold immediately.

Now I've been using a high valor cav archer, since [Prophet|ofDeath has shown me lots of tricks with it :)

[Sulla]

I feel you only should commit your general when all of your units are fighting. He is at risk during the fight, but better to commit him and win then not to commit him and get reared. Another approach is to get a horsearcher (szekely, byz cav) general. That way he is still fighting but not at a huge risk.

In the end its 16 units vs 16 units. You'll need him every battle. (if its a good one that is :))

Sulla

[Dionysus9]

The risk of a elite infantry gen is that he gets flanked by cav.

The risk of a cav general is that he gets attacked by anti-cav.

If you keep a high valor infantry general in the center of your line, and engage him with your front line units-- then if he gets flanked by cav you will have lost already anyway.

Cav generals on the other hand are much easier to draw out, bait and switch, or just pin and engage with anti-cav.

To me, the target on my infantry gen's "achilles heel" is much smaller than on my cavalry.

Plus, its fun to lead the charge with your own forhead

[M.Cornelius Marcellus]

Hi shingen,


Quote[/b] ]All the tactic I described is based on the exact opposite assumption In hundreds of battle on MP fields I fought the general was not killed before running (unless shot up by artillery)."

Your assumption is incorrect and you must be very lucky . Your general can be the first man to die in his unit. It has happened to me many times.



I tried it in hundreds battles: my general fmaa v3 or cmaa never died in action before routing. I can assure it.

You can try it 20-30-40 times in custom battles if u dont want practise it on MP: fmaa v3 vs fmaa v3. Or it is not possible that at this honour values ur general dies before routing or the probability to die before routing is so slow that you can forget it and if it happened once is pretty good for all the times that not happened.

Hi Dyonisus,
thanks for ur reply. CDould u teach me ur tricks with cav archers.
I tried general HA but Im very bad in using horse archers ... to much to click perhaps ... im too old.


Marcus Cornelius

[Puzz3D]

I have seen vets use the infantry general to good effect. They make it a strong unit such as v3 cmaa in a 10k. As CBR points out, there is no counter unit for that, so the risk is minimal. It's just that, if you make your general a strong unit, you really have to use him at the height of the fighting. As long as you wait for most of the shooting to subside, there is still minimal risk to using him because he has 6 lives. When I see a general like that moving forward to fight, I know I'll have a problem stopping him from breaking through my line. I'll probably hold an xbow in reserve just to shoot at him when he does come forward.

I normally use a cav gen, but he's not my strongest cav. He's my weakest cav kept in reserve and used to flank the enemy if possible often causing the enemy line to collapse. This means I'm controlling the unit most important to pay attention to especially after many of my units have suffered losses lowering their morale when death of the gen will cost me the battle for sure. Since my gen is in reserve in the opening stages he is also automatically out of harms way from ranged units. Given that battle strategy, I don't think switching the gen to one of the front line infantry really buys me anything. The disadvantage to my approach is that I can end up having to confront a superior enemy cav unit coming around my flank which often happens. So, the idea of using an infantry gen appeals to me if I make adjustment in my army to boost up that weak cav to a stronger one so that my flanks are more secure, and I'll focus more on breaking the center of the enemy line with my inf.

I do often see what Marcus is saying about the gen dying after he routs. There are severe combat penalties associated with routing and turning your back on an enemy fighter. Simply trying to extract your gen from a poor matchup will usually result in him being killed or captured (same thing for morale purposes). I see this because I'm often running my gen around by himself without support. If I had him in my battleline with protected flanks and as a strong unit, I'd probably not see it much and I certainly wouldn't be trying to pull back out of the fighting. If I used this idea, and it has crossed my mind to use an inf gen, I'd try to get away with just making him one of my regular units, and not the best unit on the field. I'd also have the tendency to put him just behind the center of my line rather than right in the line, but that might be the mistake by not going all the way to the hilt with this idea. You can't play 100% safe. You have to take a risk at some point to overcome the opponent.

[Orda Khan]

Hello Marcus, I have seen you achieve success more than once using a General on foot, well done, do what suits you. I have tried once or twice and I have also used a withdrawn peasant once in a while.
Sulla raises a valid point regarding a mounted archer unit. This unit can sit behind your lines, giving a bit of morale while firing on the enemy. I always use a Mongol Horse Archer unit for General when using the Golden Horde, for the reasons you offer..it leaves me another Heavy Cav unit that I can use to full effect.

Welcome...and may I say, a very good posting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

....Orda

[tgi01]

I regularly use alternative generals, and very rarely weak units , if its cav than its a hvy cav , generally being able to use all 16 units in the melee phase is worth the risk of loosing the gen .... ( remember that when yar armyis winning the units are getting a morale bonus ...even
if my gen dies my army rarely routs )

In selecting a general think about the morale bonus you are getting, to translate it into money :
( the same unit at 1 more val would be better of course as it gets +1 att/def too but for comparisons sake the amounts work ...)

Byz inf at val 3 as gen costs 983 8 at val4 it would be 1670 ya save:683 ( as gen they get morale 8 )

Swiss pikes at val 0 costs 750 at val 1 1275 ya save 525
( as gen they get morale 8 )

Order foot at val 2 costs 1156 at val 3 1965 ya save 809
( as gen they get morale 8 )

On the other hand

feudal knights at val0 costs 425 at val1 723 you only save 302 and as feudals at val0 already have enuff morale you are basically throwing the morale bonus away

chivalric knights and such which are the most common generals cost 675 at val0 and 1148 at val1 the saving is 478
but you benefit less from the morale bonus as their base morale is already 8 ...

Besides elite units are more difficult to rout anyway ...

Cmaa at val3 costs 1228 at val4 2088 so your bonus is 860 but you dont really need the added morale ....

I wouldnt put any of them in the first row charging cav or even pavs or xbows can kill a gen ...

At 10000 florin having one more strong morale unit can count for a lot , wasting that bonus on a weak unit is a waste of money ....

You will have to be careful with spear generals specially with order foot , swiss pikes work g8 specially as theyre relatively cheap at val0 , it will be very frustrating for your opponent to do a flanking then run into a spear gen which wont run away ....


TGI

[Sulla]

Nice, but swiss are only available in late age offcourse.

Well I guess its just what suits your playing style. Cavalry is flexible (you could get a standard moral 6 cavalry, then you would enjoy the bonus, mounted sergeants val 2 for example..). Allways remember you'll probably end up commiting him, so making him a fast die unit (low defense unit) isnt smart, rest is good enuff :)

Sulla

[KyodaiSteeleye]

I've used val 0 chivalric foot knights before - as the gen's morale is fine, and his anti-cav status mean that a flank cavalry attack on him is likely to fail + he can do some damage as a flanker in the later battle. He is harder to manouvre out of trouble though.

I generally use an elite val 0 unit - as you don't have to pay extra for any valour upgrades, as his morale is adequate anyway, and they are generally half decent at defending themselves. I would certainly agree that a high florin general is more often than not a waste.

Never tried a val 4 heavy infantry front-line unit though - i will have a go this afternoon....

[ichi]

Quote[/b] ]You said: "There are two disadvantages to making your General a strong infantry and fighting with him:
First, the General has a tendency to get killed prior to the unit routing, and when the General is killed or captured it can break your entire army's morale."

All the tactic I described is based on the exact opposite assumption In hundreds of battle on MP fields I fought the general was not killed before running (unless shot up by artillery). It is obvious that if this is not true my tactic is pure shit. But as far as I saw, unless u dont put him in wedge formation, the general before dying runs.

A lot of folks use weak Gens, whose morale breaks and they rout before dying. If you use a pumped up Gen he will probably die before routing, but not always.

My experience, from thousands of MP battles (ROTFLMAO I can't believe I actually said that Gah), is that fighting with your Gen means that regardless of whether he dies or routs your army suffers a huge morale penalty, and that it is not a good idea to use him until late for that reason.


Quote[/b] ]You said "Second, I want to have a very mobile General, one who can provide support to wherever it is needed"

You got now 1 cav more to support where u want. And u dont fear to loose it because it is not the general. Maybe your added cav can help u to win those cav battles that sometimes take place before the melee phase. All of us know that 90 % of times the army that has cav left for the final phase (or more than the enemy) can flank and wins.

Tricky logical point. You don't fear to loose that 'extra' cav because your General is already fighting somewhere else, so what is gained? I try to use my Gen to flank the flankers, which means that I don't hit them head on I wait unit they engage then I engage the flanking unit in the rear. This is very effective and rarely results in the death or rout of my Gen. To Commit him early in a battle would not help me to not worry about him.

You really don't get an extra unit, you simply switch the Gen from Cav to Inf. We each get 16 units - the only way to get an extra cav unit is to drop a missile or infantry unit. At 10K I usually run with 4 Pavs, 5-6 swords, and 6-7 horsies.


Quote[/b] ]You said "Having a unit near to a Gen helps its morale"
I cannot quantify how much the proximity to a general helps ur units. Someone can tell me precisely the modifying combact factor been involved (maybe it is a good answer for another topic)? Anyway in my tactic as i said the general is in the middle of the melee. Is there any other place nearer to others of your units?

I have read somewhere that it is similar to the distance an archer can shoot. Yes, there may be a place nearer to others that need support. You assume that the center is closest, but the Gen may be needed on a flank. If the Gen is Inf he is somewhat less mobile than a Cav Gen, and with a Cav Gen I can provide support on the left, or right, or center. With my Gen as a cav archer he can sit behind the line, provide morale/numerical support, shoot, and charge if necessary.


Quote[/b] ]You said: "And despite what you say, most vets do not wait to commit their General until it is too late. A well-timed flank by a General has broken my back many times. A Cav General, held in reserve, can also defend against a flanking cav. There is a fine line between using your Gen last and waiting too long.

You are right: there is a fine line between using your general last and waiting too long. My tactic tries to make that line very thin, in 1 word to increase the possibility of enemy errors because now is important for him to choose well the exact .moment in which take the decision to throw the general in the melee. Anyway I agree with you: a veteran can do it.

Cool, something we can agree on.


Quote[/b] ]You said:"By bringing a Cav Gen that is not pumped up, I save florins to spend on my fighters. I love it when I see pumped up Gens on the other side, because I know that money came from somewhere, and its usually from the front lines"

My general is pumped and is there in the middle of front line. No money is subtracted to my fighters.

True, up to a point. If you use a V3 CMAA in 10K game then you are spending roughly 1230 florins, compared to my V2 Szek Gen at roughly 725 florins. I have a V3 CMAA unit also, usually in the middle of my main line, but it can die or rout without taking my whole army with it.

In my comment when I used the term 'pumped up' I was talking about the V4 CMAA or the V3 Chiv Knight (again at 10K). The more one pumps up a unit the more expensive it gets (exponentially so - it costs a lot more to go from V3 to V4 than it does to go from V1 to V2), and at some point this takes away money from other fighters.

IMO V3 CMAA isn't really pumped up, it is at the high end of the normal range of spending. True it is more pumped up than a V2 CMAA and better stats/more expensive than a V3 FMAA, but V2 CMAA are (again, IMO) pretty weak for 10K and after I get 4 V3 FMAA I usually get a V3 CMAA for my center.


Quote[/b] ]You said that: "I can almost guarantee you that if you place your Gen in melee, the good players will focus a little extra energy on him, trying to knock him out. Some vets even use their Gen as bait, knowing that there is a high premium placed on killing Gens in this game. "

It is good: my general is pumped up. If they put 1 unit more on him they are substracting it from another place. As my general is pumped up probably will resist till his front is breaking somewhere else. My way of employing general is similar as using it as a bait as u said even if he is fighting and, I admit, there is some risk more ... but he is pumped up he should resist enough before running.

Anyway I admit that my tactic is not superior to the "veterans cavalry general". It is only different. But I did not see anyone trying to apply something similar on-line, or I missed that.

It is different, and I don't disagree with you that it may be effective. The thing I love most about this game, both MP and SP, is that it forces us to make trade-offs. Each trade has advantages or disadvantages. My solution to the question of what to do with a Gen Unit is to go with Cav Archers like Szeks. This allows me to increase my missile fire (over what I would have if I brought a Knight Gen) but I loose a little fighting power.

I don't see a lot of V3 CMAA Gens fighting in the center of the line, but if I did I probably wouldn't commit too many units - maybe my V3 CMAA and focus a couple missile units on him. When I was talking about trying to pick off a Gen unit, I was speaking of the odd Gen caught out in the open. I usually try to work on the enemy unit of the end of the line, on the flank.


Quote[/b] ]You said: "I also understand what you are saying about the vets not looking for change." Never said that: I see many veterans trying for new and coming into games with fool armies at a first look but very enjoing and unexpectedly effective, even if the traditional general cav 4 pav 6 inf 5 cav has "security" on its side.

I was responding to your comment in your original post
Quote[/b] ]But I couldnt see any veteran thinking of using a different unit type as general than cavalry.

Now, I have used V1 FFKs as my Gen unit, but I kept them back until late. I really think that there is a good reason why Gens are usually Cav - and in addition to looking cool and being historical - it is for mobility.

The conventional wisdom is pretty logical. As you said, the game is about flanking
Quote[/b] ] All of us know that 90 % of times the army that has cav left for the final phase (or more than the enemy) can flank and wins. so the idea is to match the enemy assault yet try to hold back sufficient reserves to address the enemy reserves. Since there is one unit that will go into battle last, why not make it the one unit that has the ability to rout the entire army when it routs, ie the General. This allows you to save a few florins, if you so choose, and spend it on a mainline fighter, one of the guys who is going to spend the entire battle sweating it out.

Look forward to fighting against you, maybe you can teach me a new trick. I honestly don't look forward to another long post where we parse each others ideas out. I think that we have a slightly different experience with Gens, and there is no right or wrong here.

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ichi

[M.Cornelius Marcellus]

Hi all,
I want to thank you all for ur answers to my post.
Some of them were very interesting and i learn a lot.
I feel good with an heavy inf pumped up as general.
I fought many battles with cav as general and many as shock infantry. But the second fits maybe better to my style of playing.
Anyway myfinal thoght for 10k is this:

heavy pumped up infantry - good
szek or horse archer with strong morale - good
heavy cav - good

low morale cavalry - not good
inf with low morale - not good
spearmen - not good

See u on battle fields




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Marcus Cornelius

[t1master]

it's all about personal preference and what you are comfortable with... i've done the heavy cav general, the cav archer general, the camel general, the pikeman general, the highlander and the kerns.

now i can see the benifits and drawbacks of each unit and after numerous games i've found i like the kerns the best. i'm not even gonna try and explain it or justify it, it just fits for me at the moment and i have fun and get a good laugh when they happen to win or lose....

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