winning against reinforcements

[Arrowmaker]

just a quick question about defeating on coming reinforcements.
I have often encountered the following scenario:

You run the enemy off the field but your men are tired and you have lost, say a quarter of your original attack force. Then the enemies fresh reinforcements start coming on. Do you:
a) retreat back to your end of the battlefield, close to your reinforcements or
b) keep pressing the enemy hoping they will rout through continued pressure and praying that you units don't collapse
???

All suggestions gratefully received http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

[Chimpyang]

I tend to press on as the reinforcements tend to come in dribs and drabs that ca be picked off individually

[Tribesman]

It depends on the situation , but you can be caught out .
In a recent game I pressed on to deal with the dribs and drabs as they entered , suddenly one of my units routed , it was withdrawing but was caught by half the enemies reinforcments entering battle from a different location .

[katank]

Well, if you chased them to the end of the map, then by all means give their reinforcements a nice welcome.

Hitting them from the flanks using counters slaughters hordes of them.

BTW, this is how I finished off the Mongols. After epic defenses of Kiev, I invaded Khazar and chased the first wave to the end of the map where my grizzled vet halbs and arbs continuously picked off their troops as they popped in.

BTW, if you withdraw to your side, enemy reinforcements might turn that orderly withdrawal into a full rout.

[Bhruic]

Depends on the situation. I was fighting the Egyptians in the desert. Easily routed their first wave with few casualties - although a lot of that was due to bow fire. Withdrew my archers once they were out of arrows and brought in fresh troops, and charged their lines, causing the above mentioned rout. They brought in replacements, my units still being numerically superior, I attacked. But by that point, most of my units were exhausted. This lead to a rout, and very nearly the death of my general. Luckily, I had some reinforcements make it to the battlefield and turn the tide.

I've had something similar happen when the AI reinforcements come in over a hill, giving them the height advantage, and making charging difficult.

Personally, I find that pulling back makes the most tactical sense in most of the scenarios I'm in. My reinforcements get to me faster, I can control the lines of battle better, and I have more space to chase and capture routing enemies.

Bh

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
If you're outnumbered, don't chase the routers UNLESS you have killed their general. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
_

[octavian]

my tactics when i am significantly outnumbered......chase them off, if you can get all their routing units off the map b4 their reenforcements arrive, you win the battle. there are many obvious exceptions to this of course, but this is a general rule for me.

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (octavian @ April 24 2004,18:42)]my tactics when i am significantly outnumbered......chase them off, if you can get all their routing units off the map b4 their reenforcements arrive, you win the battle. there are many obvious exceptions to this of course, but this is a general rule for me.
Jepp, I use the same tactics most of the time. Sometimes I just stay back becouse I want to kill more before the battle ends http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[AgentBif]

I don't like the chaos and uncertainty of driving my exhausted units to the edge of the map to take on fresh enemies as they enter... They constantly get flank and rear morale checks when that happens, combined with exhaustion checks, it's just unecessarily dangerous IMO. Generally I prefer to reform an ordered line nearby, allowing my men to get some rest, and letting my archers use up whatever ammo they might have left. This way I usually suffer fewer casualties too.

[katank]

I would say it is definitely risky.

usually, chase only with cav and not infantry. maybe fast inf like javs but only for short distances.

when you set up on edge, use strong melee troops to hit their flanks and park missiles right in from of them to hit them with bolts, arrows, javs, in the face.

[PseRamesses]

I only chase with cavalry, never with foot-soldiers.

[gaijinalways]

It can be a tough call. Sometimes you will get routed even by troops you were chasing who suddenly (or because they are farther away from the bulk of your units) become brave and attack your cav unit(s).

Often I pull back because I have also forgotten about units sitting nearby and you don't always know exactly where reinforcemnts will come in. The majority of them will call in from the same place the retreating ones left to, but I often get some of my reinforcements coming in in some cases even behind the enemy

[Aelwyn]

I usually pull back, but more recently I've been setting up on their side once the first wave is routed. Since I'm playing as the Turks, and the Mongols are my main enemy, I can set up a long line of Saracens and JHI right on the very edge of the map (like all the way across the map) and their units never even fully enter the field. Its almost cheating, as its very easy, but I don't really feel like fighting a 3 hour battle against 3000-6000 men.

[katank]

yep, I did what aewlyn did against the mongols except as russians.

long lines of hard core halbs with pav arbs supporting.

partial units of cav with nowhere to run can't fight V14 halbs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

neither do my V5-6 arbs miss much when hitting them in the face with volleys. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (gaijinalways @ April 25 2004,11:07)]It can be a tough call. Sometimes you will get routed even by troops you were chasing who suddenly (or because they are farther away from the bulk of your units) become brave and attack your cav unit(s).
Oh I forgot to mention that I chase them on "hold formation" like a 3-4 line wall of horses thundering after the enemies scaring the pants of eny man.

[ichi]

Some things to consider:

Your troops: what is their fatigue level? how many heavily depleted units do you have? how many units do you have on the field and how many do you have as reinforcements? are they high valor elites or low quality units? how many shots do your missile units have left? are your next reinforcements cavalry that can cross the map or slower units? Am they organized or scattered across the map?

Enemy troops: how many are left on the field, how many are routing, and how many left in reserve? what is their condition? are the reinforcements dribblig in or can you expect a wall of high valor troops?

Map: huge, hilly, desert? or small and flat? Is there a big hill on the far edge where the enemy can make a stand? or is there a good place for you to push the edge and slaughter them as they come on?

Are you attack or defense? On defense you can just retreat to your edge and rest, make his reinforcements walk a long way.

Conditions: snow? rain? is there a timer on the battle?

If it is early on in a huge battle and the enemy still has a high valor gen and elite troops, comeing in waves from the top of a big hill, and I am reduced to 8-10 depleted units with no missiles and the reinforcements a long way back, then maybe I stop and regroup.

ichi

[katank]

yep, ichi makes good points.

I never chase as defense with inf.

park em and slaughter technique I use pure for attacking and when I'm very sure of my troops.

with defense, turtle formations with inf and solidly packed missiles inside on your side of the map can demolish any opposition tired from marching across the map.

also, you can often arrange it just so that your missile reinforcements arrive inside your protective ring.

[Finn]

I only ever chase down runners with my jinettes and sometimes with my knights depending on the situation, in the time it takes for the old troups to go and any new to appear i re-form up the rest of my army into a nice formation again, archers/arbs on front, spearwalls back up, swordsmen on flanks etc, while my cav chases down the runners and captures as much as possible, if all goes to plan then the cav wipes out any reinforcements as it appears hitting it before it has a chance to fully re-establish, if there are too many for my cav to deal with they have the speed (esp the jinettes) to get back to my main line with minimal casualties, and if it all goes horribly wrong, then at least the only thing i have lost is the jinettes, which arent a main part of my army anyway. while the rest of my army is back into a good formation so i wont be caught unawares

in fact the main reason i keep one unit of jinettes is for running down routers, they have the speed to be able to catch anything including RK gens and have okayish combat too, esp against running foes, they perform admirably at the job

[katank]

yep, they are highest speed cav in the game. they have 24 run, 26 charge vs. 20 run 22 charge for RKs.

their stats are really good for missile cav. besides, their AP javs do a score on RKs.

a single units of jinettes can take a unit of RKs not problem due to that nice volley of javs which would turn the 2-1 advantage to 3-1 or better.

[Finn]

Quote[/b] (katank @ April 26 2004,09:58)]yep, they are highest speed cav in the game. they have 24 run, 26 charge vs. 20 run 22 charge for RKs.

their stats are really good for missile cav. besides, their AP javs do a score on RKs.

a single units of jinettes can take a unit of RKs not problem due to that nice volley of javs which would turn the 2-1 advantage to 3-1 or better.
when the RK are running for there lives the jinettes dont even need the javs to take them down ;)

[Arrowmaker]

Quote[/b] (katank @ April 24 2004,09:20)]BTW, if you withdraw to your side, enemy reinforcements might turn that orderly withdrawal into a full rout.
This brings out another point, namely that sometimes in an effort to be sneaky (tactful), I want my troops to retreat (walk back not the command) then they decide I am wavering and launch into a full scale rout
me thinks the game should allow for this without assuming I am retreating.

Same goes when you attack an army and inflict casualties then leave because you only wanted to cause trouble and your general gets the dreaded "good runner" label. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[The_Emperor]

Very valid points have been expressed so far.

Most of the time the battle is decided in the first wave. You have to bear in mind that any reinforcements from the defeated enemy will suffer from penalties as they enter the field of battle...

The reinforcements will be worried about routing friends as stragglers from the first wave will be running past them desperate to save themselves.
They will also be worried by the death of the General if you got him during the first battle, (singling out the enemy general is very worthwhile).
If you killed enough men during the first wave they could even be "Dismayed by Destruction of Army" (another reason to charge down so many men after the rout)

Another thing to take note of is that on the harder difficulty levels, reinforcements arrive on the field already tired... And they may be exhausted by the time they march over to your men if they are far off.

As such my advice is to take up position on a hill, or in a wood or another tactically superior position and let the enemy advance to you in their piecemeal fashion... Then deal with them one unit at a time.

[Kristaps]

Most of the time, if you seriously defeat the first AI wave, their reinforcements don't really make it to the battlefield. This holds especially true if you were lucky enough to kill the AI general.

BTW, have you noticed that frequently nowadays the AI would have a one-person general (no body-guards) and this bugger would try to walk off the map right at the beginning of the battle.

Since I noticed this, I started placing a fast cavalry unit hiding close to where the enemy army would be stationed. After the battle starts, I use this unit to chase the withdrawing general. If my scouts are successful, the effect is especially profound if the dead one used to display many command stars ;)))

[lancer63]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ April 25 2004,05:02)]I only chase with cavalry, never with foot-soldiers.
I wish I could say that. Yesterday my poles got jumped by the byzantines,outnumbered 3 to 1, after the first wave was defeated I pulled all my units into a new better line of defense, sudenlly I saw a flag flashing on a merc italian inf. unit. I had missed calling him back so he kept chasing the enemy to the edge of the map and now was being chased by the second wave. It was like watch a turtle try to outrun a tidal wave. Soon they were engulfed by enemy cav. and cut to pieces.
I chase cath. armies to the edge with all my men. Never turks, mongols or ortho. armies. They don't understand defeat and keep coming after I have killed more than half their force.

[Sun Tzui]

Chase routers only if the Reinforcements are low valour/morale units (for example peasants, militia, spearmen), if not stay put and choose a hill.
If you choose to chase them, wait for them near the edge of the map, before they reach their rally point, that usually sends them off running.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[andrewt]

I chase routers only when I'm fairly sure that I could defeat the remaining reinforcements without my current troops getting completely routed. Otherwise, I would chase a little with cav only then pull everybody back. If the cavs are reinforcement, I barely chase at all since reinforcements start with only 2 bars of energy left and energy is at a premium in long battles.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (andrewt @ April 26 2004,13:21)]I barely chase at all since reinforcements start with only 2 bars of energy left and energy is at a premium in long battles.
Hehehe, on Expert, it's YOUR reinforcements that start at 2 energy. I suspect the AI's come on the field fresh with full 5 bars :)))

[meravelha]

If I've been checking the enemy stacks diligently before the battle, I'll _know_ when the enemy has only rubbish left to throw at me.

[katank]

@meravelha,

you have no idea how many times I mistaken rallied troops for routed ones and miscounted etc. to find my final glorious sweep of enemy off the field nearly turn into a rout for me when they get hit by fresh reinforcements. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[gaijinalways]

Lots of good commnets. O fcourse things like weather, terrain, defender vs. attacker, valor, morale, fatigue, these are all factors. The type of troops you have makes a big difference too, as sometimes this tells you whether you should hang back. Of course on the defense, generally make him walk/run to reach you, the AI's troops will be much more tired when they reach your troops..

I remember reading in one thread on the defense, some people like to hide on e high valor unit that sometimes can pull off a cheesy win if your other units are routed or killed off.

[andrewt]

In normal, your reinforcements actually do start at 2 bars in really long battles. When I fought off the Mongols, I only chased using the first group. After that, I barely chased.