Helping/Advising Less Experienced Players

[ichi]

Let me state clearly that I do not consider myself to be an expert, or better player than others. Those who have fought with me know that I can be routed easier than Elmo (J/K my Muppet Brother).

But there are times when I look over and see my teammate, usually someone I have never seen before online, with 6 V1 Italian Infantry in columns, no Pavs, and 4 V3 Chiv Knights in wedge formation.

My tendency is to offer advice, and gauge the person's attitude. If they tell me to go cram walnuts, then I rarely bother trying to help them. Sometimes they seem genuinely interested in advice, and then I try to help them get through the game and offer to maybe go play a little 1v1 afterwards (not only to help them but so I can actually have a shot at winnig a 1v1).

Usually they are somewhere in between eager and obnxoious, with enough info to fight a little but lacking in the detailed knowledge. So helping them is tricky - don't want to seem like an arrogant know-it-all, but maybe a little help and leadership can win the battle and help a new player learn the game (maybe stick around for a while).

What do you do?

ichi

[Sulla]

I missed the some of the above icon :)

Well generaly I take charge that battle. If they have questions they are welcome to fire away. I did the 1 v 1 thing for a while, but I noticed a change in some of the newer players I meet. Some or very eager to learn, and they end up on the kenchi recruiting list ;), others know it all allready, and I dont really bother with them a 2nd time. I think I dont meet many eager new players (without a clan that is), because there are so many clan's these days. They get recruited pretty quickly.

Usely I just give a couple of tips "you might want to try an army that looks a bit more like mine" and "stay on my flank, dont engage till I engage". Sometimes you can pull of a win because the guy with the order foot seems a natural and stalls the dude on the other end long enuff for you to flank http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

It's hard to give some people advice though. One time I suggested to a guy not to use more then 4 of the same unit type (it was vs 2 clan guys, a newer clan I think), they were on the other side, but only thing I got back was : "looky here, we got a mister know it all".

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

O well, cant save them all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Togakure]

I play STW online exclusively at the moment, but this topic applies to both games, so I'll share my thoughts.

Usually when I encounter a new player in the foyer I offer a 1v1, and I don't offer advice at first. I host a flat map (usually the Ironing Board), and attack. I explain my preferred rules (for STW/MI 1.02--10,000 per player, 4 max, no ashi), and ask them directly if they will agree to this. They almost always do (some ask the reasoning behind the rules, and after I explain they seem to understand).

After the first game, it's easier to gauge the new player's attitude by simply saying "gg" afterwards and seeing what they say (or don't say). If they have questions, I answer them, and I always add: "if you ever have any questions I'l be happy to give you my opinion on them." I then ask, "would you enjoy another?", and offer them the choice of attacking or defending.

Usually after 2-3 games they realize that there is a lot more to playing against humans online than there is to playing against the AI in SP. Some react in a frustrated manner to this and leave (often without saying cya or anything http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif ). Some are frustrated and act as if their egos have been sorely bruised, but ask questions, which I answer as "gently" as I can. Some are neutral in disposition, ask a few questions, and request additional games--displaying a quiet and seemingly grim determination to do better (though usually by applying their own techniques).

My favorite people maintain a cheery disposition, shrug off the losses, ask intelligent questions, and are eager to try new things in our next games--some of their own new tricks and also attempting some of the things I've suggested to them.

I offer information and advice to those who seem to appreciate it--none at first, a little next, and based on how they react I offer more or less as we play more games. To those who seem interested, I also suggest resource websites like the Org, Shogun Academy, and Deadly Shingen sites (among others).

I usually overlook rudeness for the first few ocurrences, and adjust my level of communication as needed. But if they persist in being rude, I just say "thanks for the games m8," and move on to more pleasant players.

So, in relation to the poll, I do many of the things listed depending on the general disposition and behavior of the person(s) with whom I am interacting. This seems to work well for me.

[Pitt_Slayer]

yeah i think sulla has wraped it up well about giving advice

[ElmarkOFear]

Just do what I did to Ichi. I drove by his house and pounded him on his noggin until he listened to me Now he has learned the "Art Of Routing" and is becoming one of my better students It took me forever to teach him the Elmo motto: "Winning Is For Losers" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

As a matter of fact, the other night I turned around and Ichi had already left the battlefield before me I got a tear in my eye, thinking I had a lot to do with his successful rout. *SNIFF*

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[ichi]

LOL Elmo, you did have a lot to do with my routing, mainly it was your army chasing mine

ichi

[Lord Rom]

It can be difficult in the heat of battle to remember that often times the new player just doesnt realize what is going on. A good ally will help when you are being doubled, but the new player often will sit in a defensive position even if you call out for help. I've made the mistake of getting frustrated but not anymore. Keeping a fun attitude even when getting trashed by two opponents is more honorable. (but not easy to do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif )
Rom

[t1master]

i say, if you want to win, do the exact opposite of what i am doing... then i release the kerns.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Sir William Wallace]

hi guys,,thought i would offer the perspective of a new player.. i am a new player in MP ,, only been playing a couple weeks now in MP,, for now i like to let my allies direct me where to go,,it helps me learn what kind of tactics are out there to use and i am always up for tips and suggestions,, always willing to learn more from people who know the game,, it helps alot when your allies are friendly too and not rude or obnoxious. there is a lot to this game and playing in MP is a huge step up from playing in SP, i completely dominated the computer in SP battles but when i got to MP its a whole differnt story, kinda liek college players moving up to the NFL,,,i admit there is still a whole lot more for me to learn in MP and hoepfully there are willing people to teach,,just have patience with us new players and in time we will beating you easily http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif im j/k,, but eventually we will give you some really good battles.
thanks

[Axeknight]

I second that, Maximus. If a vet offers help I'll take it, and so far people have been patient with me. MP is totally different to SP, whole set of new tactics to learn. It's gonna be fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

BTW, what kind of army composition do I need? I keep getting thrashed cause my enemy's got tons of swords. Should I have 4-5 spear and 2-3 swors? Or the other way round?

[tgi01]

I firmly believe that a larger teamgame needs a battle plan so as long as my allies are at least decent ( 16 units, valour that kinda advanced stuff ), I give orders, but try to make them sound like suggestions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif ....

I dont really have the patience with total noobs , they need to learn the hard way ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif , trying to direct some1 who doesnt know how to move around is really not worth the effort ....


TGI

[Nigel]

Well, those who venture into the world of MP would hopefully have learned the "moving around" bit before in SP games. At least I would think that to be sensible. If I encountered someone who still has problems with that aspect, I would try to politely suggest to spend some more time in SP, perhaps do at least half a campaign or try to get up to a point where they can hold their own against the AI in custom battles. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

I would consider myself an "old" noob, slowly, slowly approaching the status of "average skill level" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif. I can spot basic mistakes some new players make, though, and try to point them out without sounding arrogant.

If the other guy appears interested and asks more questions, I will offer a training session. I had one myself, given by Sulla, at my very early days and it brought me a giant step ahead. So I am trying to give something back to the community by doing the same as good as I can. If nothing else, I hope that after playing with me, ppl have learned that they need to buy some valor, that they do not need valour 4 vor every unit and that at least some sword type units are a good idea. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Orda Khan]

I touched on this subject once Ichi, in a thread by RTK Paul. He and I were helped out a lot back in STW days. I was wondering how new players were getting along, was there the same help as there was etc...

A series of 1v1 games explaining movement, grouping, and the like is what I have done in the past....and inviting the new player into team games. At the very least, the new player will realise that not everyone sees him as a pesky noob.

As for myself......I had a private message from a stranger. His name shall remain undisclosed, all I will say is he was the finest player I ever saw on STW, nobody I have played with or against has ever been so much in command of his army. Game after game we played 2v2....it was a great learning curve and I ( and a few others I know ) owe this player a lot. If you are still around....You know who you are....thanks for the time and patience http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

To MTW new players....I hope this sort of thing is still the case

.......Orda

[ElmarkOFear]

For movement 1v1s are good to use in showing a new player how to move his army and the group functions.

In 2v2 and up games it is better to just jump in with a bunch of guys willing to help and to ask questions and try your best to do what your teammates want you to do. Once you get comfortable, you can devise your own ways of attacking your immediate enemy and helping your teammates cover their flanks.

In big games, the most important thing for a new player to know is to cover your teammates' flanks. Do not let an enemy unit get behind your teammates and do not let a teammate be double teamed (unless that is the plan). Cavalry is your best bet in stopping flanks, since they are speedy, and with the right upgrades, very hard to take out.

just remember to have fun. The skill will come later. I think I lost my first 200 games :)

[ichi]

Quote[/b] (Axeknight @ April 26 2004,10:01)]I second that, Maximus. If a vet offers help I'll take it, and so far people have been patient with me. MP is totally different to SP, whole set of new tactics to learn. It's gonna be fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

BTW, what kind of army composition do I need? I keep getting thrashed cause my enemy's got tons of swords. Should I have 4-5 spear and 2-3 swors? Or the other way round?
Most folks do not use spears in MTW VI MP, they just do not have the value (killing power/florins). At high florins they can be useful, but at 10-15K bring men-at-arms, foot knights, pole-arms, or axes for your infantry. Make sure your infantry is morale 8 minimum (for 10K).

ichi

[FearSimbol]

Hello Ichi i use Spears in MP with 10k http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif hehe and i use they as a cover guys... just to flank or kept my enemy busy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

BTW i miss rout you ichi... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

And i miss to cover ELMO as his bodyward http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif

hehe if any guy want help online with his game contact FearSimbol Alias SIMBA or FearHector and we will train you for free of course we dont will teach any Fear trick muhahahaha

[Brutal DLX]

Helping other new players is really tricky.. I play rather infrequently, so when I'm in a game it's usually with guys I've never played with before, but it would be foolish to assume they are all newbs. On the other hand there are some players with clan (or clan-like) tags of whom you'd naturally think they'd be more advanced than simple recruits but in reality on the battlefield this is just not so.
Now, how to determine this? Of course you could go around asking everybody whether they are newbies, but what I usually do is to ask my allies if I see some strange setup or I'll ask about what strat we're going to implement. Then I'll act according to their responses (or lack thereof).
But if you happen to have a real newcomer on your side, there is simply not much time to tell him what to do, especially once the game has started. So, I think Sulla's remark about telling them to act once they see me or other allies act is quite helpful, I wish I had said that more often, because any action, even ill-timed or inappropriate, is still better than idleness. Usually, once the melee starts, newcomers seem to be absolutely frozen and unable to react, other then selecting all and attacking a single unit...
The best way is to invite them to a 1v1 after the game if they still seem to be eager to learn. In the game at hand you can hardly give more than a couple of tips.

[Sulla]

Well, this is the order to learn the game imo.

SP - learn controls, effects of morale (a bit) and units (a bit)

MP - team game(s), get trashed big time, catch attention of someone higher skilled then you are.

MP - 1 v 1 with the dude. Suck him dry (knowledge).

MP - 2 v 2 with the same dude that helped you out. Youll get the idea from there

Thats the base to build.

If you listen to someone and ask questions, anyone can learn the game :).

Unfortunatly, most jump in the big 4 v 4's immediatly and just keep joining those. They are just to big for a newcomer to the game. So they are actually only good to get trashed in the beginning. Afterall, first make mistakes, then learn from them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Sulla

[ElmarkOFear]

One immediate thing you can do to improve your game in MTW and VI is to look at the logfiles after a game in which you got beat or a game in which a player got a lot of kills.

Then copy his army exactly, adding the correct valour for each unit. This will have an immediate impact on your game once you have learned how to control your army. That is the difference between STW and MTW. In MTW, army selection is about 75% of the battle, tactics/strategy is about 25%. In STW it was reversed: More tactics, less about army selection.

Keep playing with this army, learn how to use each unit, then slowly adapt it for your style of play. Then move onto another faction and repeat. Eventually, you will be a good player who can hold his own with just about anyone.

Have fuN

[Sulla]

Hmm, correct imo Elmark, but not entirely.

Army selection IS a HUGE factor if your army is bad. If both army's are even its all about tactics. For example, if you use 6 swords 6 cav 4 archers (both sides) its all about suprise, control of army, one unit body so to speak.

Reserves, flanking and preventing flanking becomes much more important then.

Army selection is the base. I can use many different army's and win with most of them. I could select val 0 spears and armour knights and I would loose, on that I agree. Skill becomes a factor when army's are (about) equal.

Sulla

[ElmarkOFear]

Very true Sulla, but at the beginner stage, I feel it is more important to emulate successful player's armies first and foremost. After you have found a few good armies THEN you can begin to concentrate more on the tactical side.

If you have a bad army, unlike in STW, you will not have a chance to win, even using great tactics. :) If you have a great army, you will win more often, even if your tactics are off a bit. Anyways, I wanted to give new players a starting point for getting better. Army selection is something that can be done by the player alone. Tactics for 2v2 and up, takes lots of play time and discussions in forums such as these. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

[Sulla]

Oké, im no shoggy expert ;) that explains.

Yes, well what we maybe could do at the org here is post a few good armies and make it a sticky? just basic stuff, heavy cav, some light cavalry infantry and shooters

I could come up with a few.. And so can many others. We only have to remember then, that they are just basic armies. If I train someone, I say learn to play with this army. If you feel confident with it, change 1 unit in it. etc etc etc.

Sulla

ps: Moderators, let us know if we can make a sticky on it?

[Rob The Bastard]

If someone wants to make a "Beginners guide to Multiplayer" we could pin it up for new multiplayers to read.

I don't know if that has been done elsewhere?? If you know of a good guide for beginners at multiplayer we could point them towards it.

[ElmarkOFear]

I have my old Elmo's Guide to Surviving Multiplayer, but it does not get into MTW/VI, it is more general. It gives the do's and don'ts when playing MP as well as gives advice on how to handle obnoxious players. It also goes on to discuss if a clan is right for you, and how to go about joining a clan.

I think a sticky listing basic armies and upgrades for different levels of florins and for each of the factions, would be immensely helpful for new players.

[Redleg]

Quote[/b] (ElmarkOFear @ April 29 2004,17:48)]I have my old Elmo's Guide to Surviving Multiplayer, but it does not get into MTW/VI, it is more general. It gives the do's and don'ts when playing MP as well as gives advice on how to handle obnoxious players. It also goes on to discuss if a clan is right for you, and how to go about joining a clan.

I think a sticky listing basic armies and upgrades for different levels of florins and for each of the factions, would be immensely helpful for new players.
I see Elmo that your basic run away tactic is catching on in Medevil.

Now that I have my new computer up and running - I will have to perfect my Elmo tactics once again.



CYA on line sometime

[TotalWarrior]

Hi guys I'm a newbie and have just got Medieval Total War v1.00.

I'm currently playing multiplayer with my housemates on a LAN network.

I'm usually playing 50k games with my two housemates sharing the 50k as defenders with myself as an attacker with the full 50k to spend.

The problem that I'm having is that our fights have devolved into a all spear slug out match.

I've tried using swords and cav against their spears but always end up losing more swords.

Also since they have a total of 32 slots i.e. double my troop size but i have more valour/upgrades, I always find myself committing all my troops to the front line while the rest of their low valour troops flank/rear attack me or end up spewing missiles.

I've also found that in some games my men start routing as soon as they see the rest of the fresh units approach my lines.

I've tried a variety of factions and unti compositions but have been soundly beaten.

I need some help - any suggestions?

[CBR]

When you play with such a high amount of money then being outnumbered 2:1 in units is a killer. You having more upgrades is not enough to make up for them having more units.

Cavalry is also very weak in 1.0 and swords are not that strong units compared to high valor spears.

You can download the 1.1 patch here (http://download.activision.com/activision/totalwar/downloads/patches/MedievalTW_v1.1_US_Euro.exe)

But the patch will not solve your problem of being outnumbered in units. You should persuade your friends to buy only 8 units each heh.

Or play at something like 5k each side. The morale will of course be lower but if they try to outnumber you their individual units will be lower morale/quality and you have a bigger chance of routing them before they rout you.


CBR

[ElmarkOFear]

Hi Redleg :) Yup, I have been spreading my "routing army" strategy to the masses

Total Warrior: Welcome to MTW/VI and the .org forum
A few things about playing on your LAN in preparing yourself for MP play on the gamespy hosted MTW/VI server.

1. In v1.00, spears were too powerful and you are experiencing that. Upgrade your version to the latest VI version (not sure what the number is on it) and you will find that swords and cavalry will be the superior units. Spears were changed drastically for the reason you stated (too over-powering). Unfortunately they were changes slightly too much and are not used often in MP games since they are very weak.

2. At 50000 florins, you are most likely fighting to the death with most units. A better florin level (per player) is 15k when you are just starting out, then move down to 12k and then a lot of MP players play at 10k now. As you move down in level you will find that your men will run away more often and more quickly. So you will have to do a little studying to find out how Morale, Fatigue, Formation, and other battle commands affect your units.

3. If you can buy the Brady guide for MTW. It has all the unit stats. It explains, in detail, how all the factors listed in #2 above are figured in the success or failure of your army.

4. I re-read your post, sorry I didn't see where you were playing at 50k against 2 players with 25k each. This advantage in numbers is hard to overcome at equal florin levels. You could do two things to make the game more interesting:
1. Set a rule that your opponents can only get 8 units each, thus making the possible number of units between you and them equal.
2. Lower their florin level to about 75% of what you get. In your 50k each example: You would get 50k, your two partners would evenly split 37.5k. This will make the game more even.

5. If you still want to take a shot at them at equal florins and them having twice the number of unit slots available, using your v1.0 then try using more gunpowder units. This can scare them away before they get within fighting distance of you. Handgunners at val 4 arm 3 are not only good at scaring units, but also very competent at hand to hand fighting. You have to put them on hold & hold position though or they will skirmish away and not be of any use. So here is what you do: Buy 4 really good spear units to hold, upgrade them to where they will beat any of your enemy's units. (The enemy will probably pick 16 units apiece, so your spears will be more expensive & powerful and be able to hold long enough for your handgunners to shoot away for a bit.) Also buy 3 pavise arbalestor units and upgrade their armor to 3. Then buy 4 CMAA at val 4. Lastly, buy a couple of knight units and just upgrade their armor with what you have left in florins.

Your army is now like this:

4 Handgunners val 4 arm 3
4 Spear val 4 at minimum
3 CMAA val 4 at minumim
3 Pav arbalestors val 0 arm 3 at minimum
2 Cav units upgraded with leftover florin.

Set up your pav arbs in front in a wide line 2-men deep for each unit.

Set up your spear units behind them in a wide line 5-men deep formation. Put on hold formation, hold position.

Set up your Handgunners behind each spear unit in 3-men deep formation. Put on Hold Position, Hold Formation.

Set up your CMAA behind these units but more toward the flanks. (They are your flank covering units to help keep enemy off your flank) Put them in 2-deep formation.

Set up your cavalry behind the CMAA and use them to either protect flanks or hit any enemy weak spots in the later stages of game.


If you get good with this army, I will show you my all-missile almohad army hehe :)

PS. I noticed CBR posted while I was writing this and stole my thunder.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Muneyoshi]

No you guys got it all wrong, you gonna mock them and break them down peice by peice. Or wait maybe not, let me see http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif Ok it turns out thats not how you do it, which would explain a lot.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Axeknight]

I for one would like to see the Elmo guide

[ElmarkOFear]

Let me see if I can find it on the ugli.org site. brb . . . .

Ok this is a PhP website, but I don't think you will have to register to view the guide. Go to Ugli Org site Elmo Guide (http://www.ugli.org) Once there look on the left side of the page at the top. You will see a button which is labeled "Elmo Guide" This was taken from my old website before I converted it to the Ugli MTW/VI Almohad Campaign site.

If you want to participate in the Ugli Forum then you will have to register and make sure you have "accept cookies" for this site checked in your "Internet Options" security settings. Once this is done, you will have full access to all the Ugli Forums and pics and everyghint else.

Have fun and good luck

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[ichi]

Dearest Elmo:

Please start a new thread with your MP guide link and I will sticky it. Linked in this thread I fear it will get lost soon, and it is a valuable resource.

TotalWarrior:

Welcome to The Org http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Elmo and CBR have given you some great advice. Try 10-15K florins per side, allow 16 units per side (menaing the two guys on the same team only take 8 each while the lone guy gets 16).

Simbolete:

You notice I said Most guys don't use spears, but of course there are some highly skilled killers out there who can use almost any army and still rout me. Soon I will have my revenge

ichi

[ElmarkOFear]

It's done Ichi. If you need to format it to make it look better, feel free to do so. :) I couldn't make a direct link, since I am using the old Ugli website to host our 2 campaign games. The page on the Ugli.org site cannot be linked directly too, since it is a PhP site and requires registration.

:)

[tootee]

Things I will do

1. Do not assume someone is new just because his army is unconventional.

2. Someone bringing 16 shooters, 16 spears, 16 arty.. 99% is new.. 1% is to ruin your game.

3. Minimum advice during game.. just ask if (s)he is new to game, can pm me after the battle if wanna improve. Meanwhile play the battle to my best ability and observe how (s)he plays.

4. Do not get angry over loss.

5. Do not assume boss role over the person.. only if (s)he seeks advice on how to fight the battle.

6. If I have time, will tutor personally in a couple of 1v1, highlighting basic concepts only. Teaching too much too fast only overwhelm the person.

7. Wish him luck.

[ElmarkOFear]

Actually the best help I can give a new player is to ban them from my games. That way they won't pick up any of my bad habits or try to emulate my very effective routing of my own troops. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[TotalWarrior]

Hmm, what I did ultimately was to buy units of lancers and knights of santiago, four each.

Then bolstered the spine of my army with order foot and chivalric sergeants.

I then charged my knights into both their flanks while the infantry held the middle.

Classic pincer strategy.

I set knights on loose formation before flanking.

All of them ran away within 5 minutes and the rest was a mop up exercise.

I got this (obviously) from AMPage. So thanks

What I did with the knights was to hold, then runaway and subsequently charge again. Why would the infantry spear run away? Some regiments were still quite strong...

Anyway, I am have also been unable to post topics...

Thanks.

TotalWarrior