New RTW screenshots (including new campaign shots)

[AlanH_30]

WOW

http://www.mastersgames.de/xploring_rtw.php?action=gallery

http://www.mastersgames.de/xploring_rtw.php?action=strategie

http://www.mastersgames.de/xploring_rtw.php?action=stadt

http://www.mastersgames.de/xploring_rtw.php?action=belagerung

http://www.mastersgames.de/xploring_rtw.php?action=schlachten

http://www.mastersgames.de/xploring_rtw.php?action=gebaeude

[Rosacrux]

Ahg... ohmm... *gasp* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Me want Me Want ME WANT NOW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

Damned, the pics and article are just tooooo much. It looks fanbloodytastic... I don't care about funny knightraiding druids, bullshite naked fanatic Argyraspids, or pharaonic falxe bearers in Roman tunics... I WANT THE BLOODY GAME http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

[Knight_Yellow]

Notice the horses necks are back to the old buckled version?

3 possibilites

1. Old screenshots, that have just never been posted.
2. These units havent had their models corrected yet...
3. CA have gone back to the stupid models....


id say #2 becuase some of the campaign map screens look very detailed, much like the ones on PC zone.

[Monk]

I've seen some of these screens before. I think half of them are old as they seem to be using older models and old flags, the red/black flag was in a screen shown a year ago but hasn't been shown for a faction since. The screen showing the desert city and cavalry is old and was on the Rome main page for a long time.

Even if they are old screens though, they still look damn nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[CBR]

Oh juicy

Hm some of the horses have proper necks while others dont..


CBR

[ShadesWolf]

VERy very very interesting

Now allI need to go is learn German http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif (or get a good translator)

[[DnC]]

Yep seen them. They look pretty darn good

[Sir Robin]

Are those dotted lines on the first pic national borders or plotted travel paths?

Several seem to be old unreleased pics. The helmet styles don't seem to match newer models.

Still I think I can safely say... OMG http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Shahed]

Sweet pics, thanks for posting. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes5.gif

Did anyone notice a horse-strich around here ?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

They look like they are old pics. Notice the thickness of the Pilum? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

Nevertheless, it's always good to see pics of RTW. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

[Spino]

Relax people. Most of these screenshots must be of an older build of the RTW engine. Take note of the octagonal shields and lower resolution/less detailed textures. As TC progressed we saw less and less octagonal shields and more circular ones. Many of the new units posted at the official site possess circular shields and higher resolution textures than the ones on many of the units in those screenshots.

The game still looks great though. I'm dying to see a few chariots racing around the track in the Circus Maximus... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Myrddraal]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
On this link (http://www.mastersgames.de/xploring_rtw.php?action=belagerung) 6th screenshot down, a group of men are using a battering ram to destroy a wall. The wall is collapsing a huge chunks of stone are falling on them.

Is it just me or shouldn't they be crushed. I can see the bannermans banner sticking out of a piece of stone??? He seems fairly unharmed for a man whose just been crushed
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stars.gif

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ April 27 2004,13:01)]Ahg... ohmm... *gasp* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Me want Me Want ME WANT NOW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

Damned, the pics and article are just tooooo much. It looks fanbloodytastic... I don't care about funny knightraiding druids, bullshite naked fanatic Argyraspids, or pharaonic falxe bearers in Roman tunics... I WANT THE BLOODY GAME http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif
Omg Rosacrux has gone crazy Quick, get the straight jacket, he doesn't care for the historical innacuracies anymore http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

OMG, that is SO sexy I want this game now Look at those supersleek hoplites, Romans, barbarians, eastern factions, EVERYTHING GAH now I understand why Rosacrux is going mad

Oh GOD, I don't care if this is old or not, this looks too sweet



~Wiz

[Myrddraal]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ April 27 2004,16:18)]OMG, that is SO sexy I want this game now Look at those supersleek hoplites
Whatever floats ur boat http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[The Wizard]

You know what I mean http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Voigtkampf]

Only few months more… But sometimes it looks like an eternity And if they postpone the release, I'll think I'll just… http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-end.gif

[Scipio]

is there anyway to see the site in english?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[AlanH_30]

If it doesn't come out in Q3 this year then they need to give us some kind of demo to keep us going. Infact why don't they give us some of the TC battles to play?

I just pray that it doesn't get delayed a la Doom3 and HL2

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Did anyone notice the Elephant rider near the bottom of the first page? It looks like he's about to stab it in the head Maybe this is an effective way to put the breaks on an out of control one, much like the hammer and chisel method. I can't see what he'd be using a sword at that height for anyway

[AlanH_30]

A translation of the link below (although a very patchy translation by google)
http://www.mastersgames.de/xploring_rtw.php?action=strategie

Rome: You over over 2000 years into the past will shift, at the time as an individual city itself got ready to the entire (admitted) world was total to conquer. In the campaign their approx. 250 years before Christ the command over one freely from you will transfer selectable parliamentary group. To the selection thereby still 9 further "barbarian" parliamentary groups more or less stand beside 3 playable Roman parliamentary groups. Only the 3 Roman parliamentary groups: Julier, Brutii or Scipio are open in the campaign of the "Imperatorsieg". The Roman realm is in Rome: Totally was into 4 parliamentary groups divided, the 3 large families: Julier (late Julius Cesar brings out as a hero), Brutii (as a hero they get Brutus) and Scipio (their hero is the famous Scipio Africanus) strive for the Imperatorkrone, but the powerful Roman senate still governs in Rome. If one stresses now the Imperatorkrone for its parliamentary group, then one will have to take the province and city Rome and against the reconditions of the senate, as well as the two other Roman parliamentary groups and all enemies of Rome under own command will keep 10 years long. If this should succeed to you, all Romans will recognize you as Imperator of the Roman realm and huldigen. But before your faithful troops can exceed the Rubikon (border river of the Roman central area), it is a long way there wants alliances to be closed and broken, competitor in accordance with you ELT, rebellions be struck down and plotted. Until one has such an army and the pertinent economy, in order to be able to tackle such a task, it is a long stony way beginnings becomes it as a governor, who prevails over up to 3 provinces and these provinces want now are developed and maintained. Also in order your small armed force remove, the to not many more able der lage be than the order in the province upright too receive, but a attack the over 20 other people will it with not stop can. So that you do not lose sight of as future Imperator thereby everything, meet you all important decisions of the strategy map similar in the basic structure risk. This map supplies you together with the interface via all information to meet it necessarily around your decisions. Thus you recognize exactly e.g. on the basis the banners and colors, who belongs to which parliamentary group. We pursue nevertheless times the cash transaction of a future Imperators. A view of the strategy map shows exactly, how it looks in the own realm. By the province xxx a half-full Legion marches on the road under construction, around which aufstaendische army of the slaves to intercept to the provincial town occupied with few troops approach. Now it must to its frightening determine that the slave army moving in real time advances substantially faster like its own and the provincial town with their palisaden, as well as the garrison of only 200 city guards of the slave army not long resistance to carry out can. A fast decision is necessary, does not want not to lose one its city. Do I send a diplomat of the slave army against and do captivate these to spare the city? Or increasing the cruising speed of the Entsatzlegion by I it by the slow troops reduce? Do I take the way by the mountains, I so far to go around wanted over into no ambush to turn out? A view of the cash holdings shows clearly that a bribery is not possible. Thus remains only the slow troops leaving or by the mountains. With one click on the slave army recognizes it that it has many Speerkaempfer. Thus one should rather leave the fast troop units with the normal. The decision is pleases, the Legion goes over the mountains and hopes that it into no ambush turns out and their goal few Clicks is the route of march still in time reach along fixed and already marches the Legion. Now we have to employ time us with the other tasks. In our other provincial town an epidemic disease prevails and to all abundance steams there the volcano also still threateningly. There with one click on the city gets one fast all information to the city to belong and as we recognize can, is the tendency on a tiefpunkt. God is owing to we a stone Amphitheater built there and to know thus plays hold to let around the population divert and as soon as the cash is again somewhat better filled, we should do something against the epidemic diseases. In the meantime the slaves army the city reached and we to instruct the position hold, our Legion is only few province fields distant. In Rome we give to suggest to our senators still the order in the senate the conquest of the province xxx and ensure that our field gentleman XY is entrusted with the task. Now still the diplomats to the Macedonians, in order to suggest to you an alliance over 5 years and to ask it for Durchmarschrechte, so that we can support the Brutianer. But we offer assistance with your fight against the Egyptians. And the message that already comes our Entsatzlegion on enemies is met and we transfers now in the battle mode the command over the Legion. Thus in approximately the everyday life beginning of a Imperators in Rome becomes: Was total look. But around all this in real time to make to be able, one needs a matured control as well as a system without large expenditure all necessary information fast liefert.So recognizes one e.g. the truppenstaerke of a Legion (and/or army) exactly by the colors of its banner. If it is only half filled out with darkly red as with the Julier, then the Legion is equipped also only to the half with the possible soldiers (max. 4000 men per Legion). If the color of the banner is however completely darkly filled up with the parliamentary group color, as with the Scipio Legion, then it has its maximum strength. But at the different colors and banners one cannot only differentiate between the strategic units. Thus see the armies of the "not Roman" parliamentary groups (Gallier, Egyptian, Greek, Karthager, Macedonian, Teuton etc..) completely differently out. The work facilitates for the future Imperator, since it can with a view recognize, how large the danger is it approaches there. The symbols over the putting ions state still more, each star beside the figures show their ability to kommandieren on, and 6 * Tribun (general) with 4000 a men under its command evenly these 4000 men will be able to insert substantially more skillfully use the battle than a 1 * Tribun (even if steers its that), because the soldiers fights substantially motivate and more courageously under 6 * a general because her evenly the good reputation of the Tribuns to trust. In addition your Tribune has certain characteristics, then e.g. the siege expert in the case of a siege of substantially fewer losses will suffer like another Tribun. If your Tribun flees to often from the battleground, then its people will trust it any longer so much, several hundreds of such characteristics are not Rome: Totally must you were contained and thus of way decide, you entrust your soldiers to whom. But armies do not only move on the strategy map, but are just as important to still so some other unit as the armies. Against each danger one can one approaches also the diplomacy, feeler gauges etc. use. In order to captivate e.g. a hostile army, the player sends its to diplomats loosely, then tries the hostile general on our side to pull, so that he fights from now on for us. Naturally one uses the diplomat also in order to lock trade agreements and alliances. One can negotiate also very exact contracts with its neighbours, all the same whether it concerns thereby around a Durchmarschrecht or a wedding the own fortbestand in the play to secure. Because as said, you play a parliamentary group and/or a powerful family in the old person Rome and should this family for lack of inheriting become extinct, then it is past with the dream of the Imperatorkrone (which if one is very painful a large, well working realm constructed and it falls for lack of inheriting after a round in a civil war). Over however too powerful become to let one still does not have the diplomats in the play the feeler gauges, who apart from the espionage also diplomat, generals or evenly successor to the throne to eliminate quietly and secretly to be able. Not only at the units on the strategy map the future Imperator can recognize like it around its realm stands, also the cities is good to recognize and like it is protected (thus whether they are provided with a stadtmauer or like many troops they protect) as well as the additional raw materials (like gold, iron, elephant etc.). For the protection of its realm or over still in time to react to be able, one can establish some interesting buildings. The awake tower e.g. increases the range of vision and gives the possibility rather to enemies to react, which is also bitterly necessary, since not as in the predecessor Medival, the army in a round of a province can march into the next no matter the province is how large and which geographical obstacles the way to cross (mountains etc.), but each army "points of movement" (a pure rider army is thus substantially faster like a Legion also still the siege weapons carries) had, on the slowest unit in the army to always depend and depending upon heavy of the area be used (on a road in the level it marches itself faster than in closely wooded mountains). Into the "battle mode" one changes only, if 2 armies get over themselves approximately and only 1 province field (a province is divided into several province fields) apart. Therefore one should carefully its routes for the armies plan and also clear up whether enemies there to keep itself hidden. If one marches with its Legion by a valley and on the mountains is above a hostile army, then this Legion has already worse maps her "uphill" to fight there must (which in the battle is substantially more fatiguing). Also the fast the Legion, if them are guessed/advised into an ambush, with difficulty an army those pull away downhill marched should fewer points of movement use than one those uphill are actually marched. Beside mountains rivers with their few "natural" transitions represent a strategic key point, which one can go around however by the building of bridges. The beginning Imperator will thus spend much time on the strategy map around all its decisions to meet, why she is very detailed (the screens are from the early alpha here in that not yet everything are prepared) and with much love made the detail is.

[biguth dickuth]

Well, those translating programs often make some really funny translations... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Anyway, what i kept from it was a sentence in the last lines of the text:

Quote[/b] ]the screens are from the early alpha here in that not yet everything are prepared

I guess that gives the final answer regarding the 3D engine.

[Scipio]

thanx for that never noticed the "language tools" at google. It seems like they are having a contest at that site for some rtw calendars etc but I dont feel like translating the whole site so I can register and attempt to win http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flat.gif

[AlanH_30]

Here are the links translated (by google)

http://translate.google.com/transla....e_tools (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mastersgames.de%2Fxploring_rtw.php%3Faction%3Dstrategie&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)

http://translate.google.com/transla....e_tools (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mastersgames.de%2Fxploring_rtw.php%3Faction%3Dstadt&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)

http://translate.google.com/transla....e_tools (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mastersgames.de%2Fxploring_rtw.php%3Faction%3Dbelagerung&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)

http://translate.google.com/transla....e_tools (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mastersgames.de%2Fxploring_rtw.php%3Faction%3Dschlachten&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)

http://translate.google.com/transla....e_tools (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mastersgames.de%2Fxploring_rtw.php%3Faction%3Dgebaeude&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)

[SwordsMaster]

Google and Master Yoda must have learned grammar in the same place... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif At least Master Yoda had the Force....

[The Wizard]

Well, you can say a lot about the Google translator, but it is better than Babelfish. God, that's crap.



~Wiz

[Sir Robin]

My favorite is the "parliametary groups." http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Ragss]

Im really hating the new campaign map...I hope they have an option to play on the classic MTW/STW paper map style...

[The Wizard]

You mean the slight square-ness of the map? Not pretty, but consider this:

RTW towers miles over Shoggy and MTW on the stragetical level. No longer a risk-esque moving of chesspieces, we can actually carry out stragetical movements Now how about great

Do mind that is a build of RTW that is many months old. It's no longer up to date, and I'm thinking that it'll be better when the game is released.



~Wiz

[Antalis::]

Zitat[/b] (Ragss @ Apr. 27 2004,13:38)]Im really hating the new campaign map...I hope they have an option to play on the classic MTW/STW paper map style...
I also don´t like the new map.

So great battles and a not very impressive, with much too many symbols and low resolutions of the textures when you zoom in, campaignmap.

Hope they kick the whole map and make a new one without giants and better graphics.

[The Wizard]

That is an old build I too hate the screenshot you used in your thread about the giant map units, with the ugly red-black banner and such. But I'm quite sure they've fixed it. At least that's my sincere hope.



~Wiz

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ April 27 2004,09:18)]
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ April 27 2004,13:01)]Ahg... ohmm... *gasp* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Me want Me Want ME WANT NOW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

Damned, the pics and article are just tooooo much. It looks fanbloodytastic... I don't care about funny knightraiding druids, bullshite naked fanatic Argyraspids, or pharaonic falxe bearers in Roman tunics... I WANT THE BLOODY GAME http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif
Omg Rosacrux has gone crazy Quick, get the straight jacket, he doesn't care for the historical innacuracies anymore http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Yeap, a great loss to the ORG community and History afficionados in general... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif

[Swoosh So]

i also dont like the new campaign map but who cares ill be playing MULTIPLAYER

[Rosacrux]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ April 27 2004,16:59)]
Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ April 27 2004,09:18)]
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ April 27 2004,13:01)]Ahg... ohmm... *gasp* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Me want Me Want ME WANT NOW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

Damned, the pics and article are just tooooo much. It looks fanbloodytastic... I don't care about funny knightraiding druids, bullshite naked fanatic Argyraspids, or pharaonic falxe bearers in Roman tunics... I WANT THE BLOODY GAME http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif
Omg Rosacrux has gone crazy Quick, get the straight jacket, he doesn't care for the historical innacuracies anymore http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Yeap, a great loss to the ORG community and History afficionados in general... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif
Don't Cry for me, Aymaaaar, you know I really... oops, got carried away http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif

Seriously, though, I just feel an urge to have that game...

And you can bet a serious amount of money that the very moment I'll get my hands on the fancy red package, and install the bloody game, I am gonna mod the bejesus out of it... bye bye Naked Pharaonic Druids, goodbye Bull Nightraiding Falxmen, goodbye http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ April 28 2004,09:15)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ April 27 2004,16:59)]
Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ April 27 2004,09:18)]
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ April 27 2004,13:01)]Ahg... ohmm... *gasp* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Me want Me Want ME WANT NOW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

Damned, the pics and article are just tooooo much. It looks fanbloodytastic... I don't care about funny knightraiding druids, bullshite naked fanatic Argyraspids, or pharaonic falxe bearers in Roman tunics... I WANT THE BLOODY GAME http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif
Omg Rosacrux has gone crazy Quick, get the straight jacket, he doesn't care for the historical innacuracies anymore http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Yeap, a great loss to the ORG community and History afficionados in general... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif
Don't Cry for me, Aymaaaar, you know I really... oops, got carried away http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif
ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif



Quote[/b] ]Seriously, though, I just feel an urge to have that game...

And you can bet a serious amount of money that the very moment I'll get my hands on the fancy red package, and install the bloody game, I am gonna mod the bejesus out of it... bye bye Naked Pharaonic Druids, goodbye Bull Nightraiding Falxmen, goodbye http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif I would expect nothing less from you BTW, welcome back to sanity... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Kraxis]

Am I really the only one that doesn't like most of the screenshots?

Notice the Spartan Hoplites (there are a two shots of them with their Lambda, not the Alpha). They have a muscled cuirass and not even corinthian helmets, more like Boiotian ones that had fallen out of use even before the Corinthian ones... Take a look at the cuirass again, the muscles are very shady. The hoplites look extremely unfinished, as do the roman legionaries. THe lorica segmentata had far too many bands, other more current shots have them wear a more likely number of bands. Again it is obvious it is a quite unfinished build.
Also the banners they are carrying (besides the fact that there are two old/unknown ones) are quite grainy compared to what we are used to.
The shots in general are griny and in some instances don't even seem to be in 3D, they are but they look quite bad.

I can only say that if it hadn't been said in article that these were old, I would still say they were old and rather bad looking.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ April 28 2004,09:36)]Am I really the only one that doesn't like most of the screenshots?

Notice the Spartan Hoplites (there are a two shots of them with their Lambda, not the Alpha). They have a muscled cuirass and not even corinthian helmets, more like Boiotian ones that had fallen out of use even before the Corinthian ones... Take a look at the cuirass again, the muscles are very shady. The hoplites look extremely unfinished, as do the roman legionaries. THe lorica segmentata had far too many bands, other more current shots have them wear a more likely number of bands. Again it is obvious it is a quite unfinished build.
Also the banners they are carrying (besides the fact that there are two old/unknown ones) are quite grainy compared to what we are used to.
The shots in general are griny and in some instances don't even seem to be in 3D, they are but they look quite bad.

I can only say that if it hadn't been said in article that these were old, I would still say they were old and rather bad looking.
Don't worry. They ARE old... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Sir Robin]

I like the screenshots but with the understanding, as stated in the preview, that these are from an alpha version of RTW. Screenshots shown in CGW and PCGamer, presumably from a beta version, are more complete and refined.

Still any screenshot of my growing obsession are fine and show me tantalizing clues to RTWs final state.