Naginata Cavalry

[dedmoroz]

I mean is it me or Naginata cava is a complete waste of koku?

i dont quite understand the purpose of this unit in the game.

it's cost is 450 koku, only 150 less than heavy cavalry, but they loose 4 out 5 times even to yari cavalry, not to mention they die to monks and naginata one on one.

they are slow moving and worse even more in rain conditions.

does this unit specializes in some kind of particular action i didn't quite understand?



http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Hmm they are my favorite cav http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

They have highest morale of the other cav and the best attack...better charge than heavy cav...they will cut down enemy ranged units the fastest and are the best for flanking enemy units and hitting them from behind. Also they are the cheapest http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Togakure]

Are you using the "off-the-shelf" version of STW/MI, dedmoroz? They are not as effective with the original stats, and are quite slow. With the 1.02 patch for MI, they are much better (the speed increase is the most significant improvement). Online in multiplayer battles, they are the most popular type of attack cav. Most use NC for general units because of their mobility and high base morale (higher than any of the other attack cav types).

They do best when hitting the flank or rear of a unit. They do better than other attack cav when frontally charging muskets (though this is not recommended unless they are at least honor 4 and the muskets have been attritioned and/or quite tired). If their honor is high enough, they beat no dachi and monks of similar cost. They are beaten by yari sams and ashi, yari cav, heavy cav, and sometimes naginata foot soliders if they attack them head on and the naginata are not fatigued.

The key to effective use of NC is sufficient honor, flanking and correct RPS (rock, paper, scissors) match ups. The shape of the unit's formation is also an important factor in many cases (square formations do better for manueverability and lower attrition rates, though the impact of their charge is lessened).

[Oaty]

1 extra about them there weapon is a heavy slashing weapon wich is armour piercing but unfortanately the A.I alomost never techs up enough to field those heavily armored units wich does not allow you to use them to there fullest abilty

[insolent1]

NC are the best melee cav in STW, think of them as NoDachi on horse back but with better defence & armour(probably closer to monks). They should primarily be used in flank attacks like ND's. They are also the best cav for beating samurai archers as they kill them quick unlike Heavy cav also yari cav & cav archers sometimes struggle to beat archers & take a long time.
1.02 is the way to go http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Btw Oaty there is no armour piercing melee modifiers in STW

[DeadRunner]

They do the same that heavy cav but they do better,with a nice punch in charge and with some backup they break the enemies lines with eyes closed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif .
They are much better then the heavy cav and they are nagitana with horse =P

[dedmoroz]

ok guys thx for the replies but now i am really confused http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

TogakureOjonin:
i use MI with 1.02 patch.
i play SP campaigns and custom battles.

DeadRunner:
these are results of test i did yesterday in custom game 1:1 units of 60 with morale 2 and base attack//defense (me as attacker) no wedge formation:


Heavy Cava (attacker) // Naginata Cava (defender)

test 1 56 heads taken // 35 heads taken
test 2 50 27
test 3 54 48
test 4 54 28
test 5 58 30


Naginata Cava (attacker) // Heavy Cava (defender)
test 1 15 59
test 2 16 60
tets 3 23 59


i stopped here because its quite obvious that heavy cava is far more superior to naginata 1 on 1.

i will make further test aginst other units and report them here...

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Nag cav stats: Charge 11 , Attack 4(5), Defense 1(2), Armor 4, Morale 8(10).

Heavy cav stats: Charge 9, Attack 2, Defense 7, Armor 6, Morale 6.

However Nag cav I believe come at a base of hon1 when you train them due to the required famouse horse dojo while heavy cav do not, so you can add 1 to attack and defense and 2 to morale.

As you can see heavy cav will beat nag cav, all agree on that, but nag cav are the better attack unit (for use against ranged, flanking) while heavy cav are the better h2h unit (straight on against naginata, monks, nd, other cav).

I generally use my cav for flanking and vs ranged units and so prefer nag cav, really it depends on your style of play.

The attack and defense stats have nothing to do with weather the army they are in is attacking or defending...units with a high attack low defense (no-dachi) will kill fast and die fast, units with high defense low attack will kill slow die slow(naginata).

[Cheetah]

Basically, what Shinano said. But here is the common wisdom about all 3 type of melee cavs:

Heavy cavalry: primary defensive cav unit. Slow, good attack and defense values, somewhat low charge. You can expect HC to give a good fight against any other unit types, monks and yari cavs can give them a good fight, and of course yari sams (or pumped up ashigaru) will beat them, even though they will give a good fight even against yari sams. (of course it all depends on the honour upgrade so I am talking about equal koku units) In general, HC is a good melee cav. The only limitation is its speed, HC is not really suitable to hit enemy ranged units, not to mention to chase horsearchers. If you can get them to flanking position it can be devastating but it takes time, thus gives chance to your opponent to react. Best to use as a 2nd line unit to plug gaps in your line and stop flanking cavalry or infantry. HC general is a good choice and it is very popular in MP.

Naginata cavalry: the prime attacking cav unit. Faster than HC, have a reasonably good attack and defense and better charge than HC. Since NC have better charge and faster than HC it is the best cav to hit enemy ranged units and hit flanks. Since it is weaker in melee it is not really suitable as a line cavalry, it will lose to HC, yari cavs, yari sams, pumped up ashi, naginata, monks. The only melee unit against which it shines is nodachi. NC is almost as good against nodachi as HC. Since it is the prime cav to hit enemy ranged units it is always a good idea to have at least 2 or 3 NC in your army. Not really suitable as a reserve since it will lose the HTH fight against any other inf or cav except nodachi.

Yari cavalry: the prime anti-cav cavalry. It has spear thus gets the anti-cav bonus. Fastest of all three but the weakest in melee against inf units. It can beat NC and can give a good fight to HC (for equal koku you can expect yari cav to win, but it is not a clear cut win). Because its speed it is ideal to stop enemy HC or NC flanking moves and the only melle cav that can keep up with cavarchers. The weak melee means that you should keep your yari cav away from the inf fighting it will lose to any melee inf. Still it is a good idea to have at least 1 fast yari cav in your army.

Of course it is all for 1.02 patch.

Patch 1.03 has a bit different system, yari cavs are stronger.

[dedmoroz]

Hi Shinanao and Cheetah,

thx a lot for your tips, now things are much more clear for me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

Today i had a huge fight against Mongolian Horde, they had 4000 + most cavalry archers and heavy cavalry.
i had only 800 men - yari, archers and some naginata. my men stood very well against waves of cava archers till mongol heavy cav came in and slaughtered all of them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

i guess orda heavy cava is completely different story they are nearly unstoppable http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[HicRic]

Quote[/b] (dedmoroz @ April 29 2004,14:53)]Today i had a huge fight against Mongolian Horde, they had 4000 + most cavalry archers and heavy cavalry.
i had only 800 men - yari, archers and some naginata. my men stood very well against waves of cava archers till mongol heavy cav came in and slaughtered all of them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
ouch, sounds nasty I wouldn't like to take that lot on


I've found that NC are great-cheaper than other cavalry, but good morale and a nice punch to them. I always try and stick one unit in every army I have. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Also good for cleaning up routers, or just generally charging in wherever you want (although the same can be said for all cavalry, I suppose).

[hoom]

For me Nag Cav are all about concentration of firepower.

Hit any slightly isolated unit with 3 NC on 2 or 3 sides & it dissappears fast.
Reform, reposition & repeat.

In many single player battles the bulk of my armies do nothing while 6-8 NC sweep the field clean.

With their low base defence NC survivability benefits substantially from armour upgrades.

[garion]

I also notice that naginata cav's honour goes up very fast, almoast as quickly as kensai-honour. Has anybody else noticed this

[hoom]

Only because they do lots of killing... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[barocca]

because of high morale, high charge bonus and decent speed they make excellent flankers,
they are less likely to rout if they are without supporting units (although i usually use them in pairs),
a pair of nag cav charging into the rear of engaged enemy units can make all the difference,

I often use them for my general, pump them up enough and the general can be a match winner.
Do not deploy him alone, a unit of yari cav supporting the general can intercept any cav your opponent attempts to flank him with.

Six units in one of my battles (on sunday) cleared one of my opponents from the field, 3 nag cav (including my general), one yari cav,`a monk and a no-dachi - unfortunately i was outnumbered 3 to 1 by that time and the rest of my army could not hold my other 2 opponents at bay...though a lone unit of my muskies killed 243 and lost not a man - armour does help http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Medieval Assassin]

They are my favorite cav on the game. They do awesome against most things
Charge into the flank or rear of the enemy units, Withdraw, Repeat.

[solypsist]

Quote[/b] (Shinano @ April 27 2004,16:40)]Hmm they are my favorite cav http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

They have highest morale of the other cav and the best attack...better charge than heavy cav...they will cut down enemy ranged units the fastest and are the best for flanking enemy units and hitting them from behind. Also they are the cheapest http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
they are my fav cav, too. i always use them as soon as i can get them.

with a few upgrades, they're more than a match for anything but heavy cav.