View Full Version : which unit in Shogun the strongest?
Gan Ning
05-01-2002, 07:17
which unit in shogun the strongest?
the nagenta? thats what i think, they can "dodge" arrows/bullets! Well heavy cal. are strong 2. wat u think?
Well as a matter of fact, those who are supposed to suck, rule. That is: Ashigaru
SuperYA and guns.
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MagyarKhans Cham
05-01-2002, 07:36
depends also on the player commanding it
our Khans best "value for koku for fun" unit is the honour 0 horsearcher
it costs not much, its fast after u dropped the arrows it can fight as well
Papewaio
05-01-2002, 08:00
Quote Originally posted by Gan Ning:
which unit in shogun the strongest?
the nagenta? thats what i think, they can "dodge" arrows/bullets! Well heavy cal. are strong 2. wat u think?[/QUOTE]
Koku for koku YS are the most versatile and have no real weaknesses. They make a good core for an army and then you just add other units to change the effectiveness of the unit.
Quote Originally posted by Papewaio:
Koku for koku YS are the most versatile and have no real weaknesses. They make a good core for an army and then you just add other units to change the effectiveness of the unit.[/QUOTE]
Well. They're slow and their morale is shaky.
They're normally first to rout in MP games and they're too slow to be really used in flanking when you have to do it fast.
But they are best defensive unit overall...naginata have a much better defense value but they cost more than twice the YS, have low morale compared to the monk/nodachi and cavs, slower and they tire easily. Having a melee bonus of -1 they're very difficult to use and not good for many situations.
For my style of play there is no real better unit, but I regard cavalry to be determinant on flat maps.
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Papewaio
05-01-2002, 09:32
Quote Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
Well. They're slow and their morale is shaky.
They're normally first to rout in MP games and they're too slow to be really used in flanking when you have to do it fast.
But they are best defensive unit overall...naginata have a much better defense value but they cost more than twice the YS, have low morale compared to the monk/nodachi and cavs, slower and they tire easily. Having a melee bonus of -1 they're very difficult to use and not good for many situations.
For my style of play there is no real better unit, but I regard cavalry to be determinant on flat maps.
[/QUOTE]
YS are good at fighting Calvary and for koku value are ok against archers (better then shock units). But I wouldn't say they are my favourite unit... just the most likely unit to be found in my armies because they are good at holding the line and work well to enhance other units like SA and allowing shock units time to flank.
Sort of mobile sandbags while Nags are more like mobile bunkers.
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Victory First, Battle Last
Major Robert Dump
05-01-2002, 22:28
Ive beeu using h2,h1 and h0 Heavy Cav lately to guard my archers/guns and it usaually works remarkably well for my playing style as long as my opponent doesnt charge me with ... errrr...spears.
what are super ashigaru,i never really went into the thread about them but now i need to know,what are they?
Muneyoshi
05-01-2002, 23:05
Honour 9 w3 a3 is a super ashi. I prefer H5 W3 A3 myself, but thats just in defense
The super ashi kicks in at about H7 W2 A2 for 790 koku. That's where they beat H3 monks at 770 koku and H5 no-dachi at 823 koku, and have high enough morale to operate fairly independently, although, morale is less than these other units. The H4 naginata at 833 koku should still be able to hold it's own, but the super ashi can continue to add to it's strength above H7 W2 A2 for less cost than these other units in the weapon and armor categories.
As purchased at H2, the naginata is the strongest, but it kills slowly, moves slowly and fatigues faster in wet weather.
I edited this post with the correct costs because I miscalculated the cost of the upgrades as Tosa pointed out, but the conclusions are still valid.
MizuYuuki ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 05-02-2002).]
Muneyoshi
05-02-2002, 00:10
Actually SuperAshi's morale still suck and they cant act independently
You're not trying to challenge Yuuki ey http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
But probably one of the few weaknesses of the SuperYA is that when put under great pressure it doesn't take long to waver and run away.
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Mithrandir
05-02-2002, 00:43
It's the secret unlockable Elf Force, a small group of elves,armed with bow's never miss and have magic at their side,in The Elf Force, here are also several very powerfull wizards and combined with the power of the Kings Of Old they are an undefeated force to reckon with.
and there's the kensai of course...
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NI
YagyuMuneyoshi,
An H7 ashi has morale of 10 which is the same as an H4 YS. That's not low morale. The unit will beat anything not costing more excluding the NI. You have to gang up on these things to rout them or hit them with something more expensive.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Gan Ning
05-02-2002, 02:02
heavy cal. are a good flanking unit if uve got a little time.
Konnichiwa,
H7W2A2 YA only 790 koku. The superYA is the strongest unit, without any doubt. If I recall right, the YA won the most annoying unit poll.
The only weakness of an ashigaru, regardless of its honor is that he is more prone to routing units/dead of taisho. In other words, ashigaru armies will cascade rout faster.
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1dread1lahll
05-02-2002, 05:44
Super ashi? Did I not start a thread that got 65+ replys on that subject? And again some seem to hate them because of their combat abilities, and others seem to say they suck because their morale is still low....Combat ability? but likely to run? sounds like the unit has somthing that others lack, like balance? But someone else said it already, its now you use them.....try play with "super ashi" if u like but if you dont no how to manage morale like really well you be be disappointed...
and to save you all time,,, the most cost effective formula for ashi is h8,w3 a2 within 20 koku of h4 monks
Papewaio
05-02-2002, 06:21
If you really want to break superashi.
Play them.
Play friendlies against each other.
Go overboard and play 4v4 one side all superashi. The other side anti-superashi. Play each other 1v1 on the field and see who wipes out who first.
Finish up. Then the other 4 go Superashi vs Anti-superashi.
I'm sure someone will be able to find a combo to take them out pretty quick.
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Victory First, Battle Last
Dionysus9
05-02-2002, 08:12
MONK!
I think for overall killing power the Monk is the best unit. He moves quickly, has high morale, kills quickly, and is not vulnerable to any other hand-to-hand units.
A unit of monks should be able to take out any unit of equal or lesser honor in hand to hand combat-- even heavy cav.
The reason, I think, nobody else has said monksthat they are vulnerable to ranged units-- monks dont do well vs. bullets and arrows. Plus, they are pretty expensive and so you cant have too many of them, especially in a lower honor game.
Need we revisit the monkrush?
In old STW Monks were the problem Dion..we all agree on that. But we can do nothing now.
In MI/WE 1.02, monks were revisited and now HC and NC beat them (HC really well) and they are balanced now.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
But probably one of the few weaknesses of the SuperYA is that when put under great pressure it doesn't take long to waver and run away.
but Tera,if you take morale of they would become super super ashigaru
Krasturak
05-02-2002, 22:51
Gah!
The most powerful unit is the unit under command of Krast's Awesome Clanmate, RageDevil.
Unit type not matter.
Gah!
BomilkarDate
05-02-2002, 22:53
I always shoot ashis in mp. If 40 Superashis attack, and you hit them with your ND, they will break. Or attack them with a H0 kensi (he will break through their line and fight inside) and then hit them with ND (Here Krast would say GAAAAHH).
BTW No Dachi rule. If you know to use them, they are awesome.
Or my favorite Anti Super Ashi (works only against guys who only win because of super ashis and not because of skill) Hit them with ND, or block them with YS and then, when they are fighting, rear attack them with NC or even funnier with YC http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif. One line will die and the others try to run home, but of course cav is quicker than a Ashi. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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Strength and honour
Bomilkar Date
Yes, a good old nodachi Hon5 Wep1 Arm1 will nicely slaughter any SuperYA below H8.
But you're forgetting one thing, while the SuperYA will most times cost below 700, an H5 nodachi alone without upgrades already costs more at 823! Now to beat the SuperYA you have to upgrade the nodachi with wep/arm, and that's hell of a cost, over 1000.
Tera.
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This quote from another thread brought to me a revelation!
QUOTE]Originally posted by BSM_Skkzarg:
The ultimate victory is not having to fight at all. - paraphrased from Sun Tzu.
Thus, in SP - build your economy, bribe the enemy taisho and his units, and take provinces one by one without a fight, all the while adding more and more to your army. When you have the overwhelming horde (4-5 16 unit stacks) then charge the enemy and watch him retreat, retreat, retreat until you reach another easily defensible area where you should solidify, regroup and repeat.
Q!
Skkzarg
[/QUOTE]
The most powerful unit is...
The jesuit priest! At a cost of only 50 koku, you field more of them than Ashigaru! Watch the enemies fall as their feeble minded peasants give in to the brianwashing of your cult. They will rise up against your foes in hoardes like minions of the living dead.
Sure, your foes can send ninja against them, but at 50/50 odds, you can afford to lose some...you may well cost him more in ninja than he costs you in priests.
(In reality, I have never bothered doing this, as I actually prefer to fight battles than to bribe enemies and insight revolt..and anyway, I just have STW, not MI and thus cannot bribe even if I wanted to)
NagatsukaShumi
05-03-2002, 01:58
I'd say for combat the No Dachi, HC or WM's are good, for long range, I'd go with Musk's or Archers
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Gan Ning
05-03-2002, 04:02
No-Dachi are good at making units waver.
Gan Ning
05-03-2002, 07:14
but there also good at dieing 2!!!!
Quote Originally posted by Gan Ning:
but there also good at dieing 2!!!![/QUOTE]
Death in battle is the ultimate show of honor for a samurai. So, No-Dachis are just excellent at this. That means they are closer to reaching Nirvana and communing with Buddha than other units that are encumbered with such silly things as 'survival'.
Wavesword
05-04-2002, 03:05
If only there were no unit maximum you could have 90 H0 Ashis, being 'motivated' by a H5 No-Dachi Sheepdog. Amidst the lag, just alt-click on the enemy general and victory will follow.
Zen Blade
05-04-2002, 03:59
Personal opinion:
I hate muskets.... they are the most annoying unit in the game b/c they are not balanced. They are too powerful.
try taking out a person with a reasonably (4musks +4spears+4horses+4dachi/monks)balanced army with musks... vs a balanced army (6horses+4spears+6others) without them.... and the army without musks is almost guranteed toast. You can take out musks and use tricks... but on a completely flat map it is very tough if the person with guns has any experience....
2 H2 musks +1H2spearman vs 1 super ashi.... who would win?
-Zen Blade
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AggonyShim2
05-04-2002, 10:32
we all know the naginata rule http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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Such simple question. Strongest unit is a unit of H9 warrior monks with full weapon and armour upgrade. Which other units have the best mix of attack + defence rating, armour rating, honor rating and mobility, and bonus (or no penalty) vs other unit type?
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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An h9 HC without upgrades would beat that Tootee. Maybe even at honour 8 with some upgrades.
Tera.
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Yes but HC doesn't have the best mix of strength as a WM.
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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All units r strong depends and when and how u use them.And maps terrain weather all ply a important part in battle.
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FastCub
You're right to a certain extent Tootee...monks have great morale, good defense and good melee plus don't suffer any real penalties except their low armour, they're the best mix for sure.
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Gan Ning
05-08-2002, 03:24
All units have there advantages in battle, some more impotant then others!
Dionysus9
05-08-2002, 04:29
I agree, Gan, lately my archers have been suffering from impotence too. :P It's really a shame to see them strike out w/ the Geisha's after a victorious battle.
My monks on the other hand are as virile as a bull on Viagra. Watch the hell out!
B.Ninja are almost invincible inside a forest. Only very high honour monks or naginata can hold out against them.
Gan Ning
05-10-2002, 05:37
Hc are i think one of the "strongest" units is some cases but in others i think the nags or wm, but the REALY BAD thing about wm is if ur up agaist a enemy who has like 300archers and u got mainly monks, the Best and Only choice is to riot and run. Unless u dont mind watching ur men on a suicide march!
(and theres some weirdos that prolly do)
Gan Ning
05-16-2002, 03:13
Support the "Bring The Classics Back Campaign"
started by M-E
Gan Ning
05-17-2002, 07:44
waitin for support!!
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(if theres no more dots its cause i died of bordome)
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