New samurai in town

[Dragatus]

Greeting everyone.

As you've likely already guessed based on the topic title I'm new both to Shogun and this fine forum. And I just so happen to have a question. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I have only Shogun without the Mongol Invasion and I'm playing my second campaign (well, actually it's the fourth, but two of them lasted for less than half an hour so they don't really count) and am leading the Shimazu (or whatever the green guys are called) in their quest to unite Japan.

My problem is that I'm having trouble activating that legendary swordsman event that would allow me to unleash my dreaded No Dachi swordsmen. I read somewhere that one of your troops needs to gain 2 honour and I already had a group of Yari Samurai to that but still no success.

From my first serious campaign I remember that I got the legendary swordsman when I lost a battle. Could that be the trick?

[Lord Ovaat]

Never played Shogun, but welcome to the Org http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Kaatar]

The legendary Swordsmen even happens when a soldier gets a certain number of kills. I find that it's a lot less likely to happen if you auto-resolve.

As far as I know, it can be any type of soldier.

I think you might be able to take the most southern province on the map (I forget it's name). It's on a small island. I think that place already has a swordmen building.

[Gregoshi]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Welcome Dragatus. Welcome to the wonderful world of Total War.

I recall that someone figured out a way to increase the chances of activating the Legendary Swordsman event, but I don't recall the details. I wouldn't be surprised if it was tucked away somewhere in these forums.

[Sun Tzui]

Welcome Dragatus

I too started out with Shogun. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Monk]

Greetings Dragatus and Welcome to the .Org

I havn't played Shogun in a long time, but perhaps your answer lies in the Sword Dojo, hidden by the passage of time. IIRC the legendary swordsman event takes place when a warrior kills so many of the enemy, though i found it happened more often when i fought the battles myself as i always ordered suicide charges against over whelming odds

This talk of Shogun is making me feel a bit nostalgic... Maybe it's time i gave it another go. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Sasaki Kojiro]

It's easiest with cavalry chasing down enemy troops...early on you can't train cavalry but you can use your hatamato unit.

[Dragatus]

Thanks for the friendly welcome. :)

So I need to let a soldier kill enough people? Sounds easy enough, considering my new neighbors from the Oda clan seem to have been cranking out lots of Yari Ashigaru.

Kaatar, I already conquered both of the smaller islands in the south-west if that is what you meant, but unfortunately found no Sword Dojo.

[Togakure]

The rebel province of Tosa on the smallest island, Shikkoku, begins the game with a Legendary () Sword Dojo in one of the campaigns (not Sengoku Jidai, and not 1530 ... I believe it's the 1550 campaign; perhaps 1580, I'm not sure). The Legendary Sword Dojo allows the training of No Dachi samurai with +2 honor, and Kensai as well.

What I try and do in that campaign is take a province next to Tosa first (Iyo or Awa). Usually there are two incomplete stacks of rebels in Tosa when I do. I send a raid into the province, causing the two incomplete stacks to merge into one after the attack (I call off the attack without fighting). Then, I send 3-4 emissaries in and bribe the entire army. If you succeed in bribing all of the units in the province without a fight, you gain ALL of the buildings in the province, undamaged. This allows you to begin production of advanced No Dachi AND Kensai as soon as you assume control of the province, saving a LOT of koku for not having to build a Citadel (requiring a Castle, Large Castle, and Fortress) and the Legendary Sword Dojo (requiring a Sword Dojo and Famous Sword Dojo). That's 4500 koku saved (less the cost of the bribe, but in addition to the value of the troops you gain from the bribe)--almost always a VERY good deal.

Taking Tosa undamaged is especially cool if you are playing as the Shimazu, as they can produce No Dachi for 225 koku each, as opposed to 300 koku each. You usually get a Kensai, some No Dachi, and a couple of good generals in the bribing process as well.

All Yari Ashigaru trained in Tosa also get a +1 honor bonus, which is tasty icing on an already delicious cake.

[insolent1]

The Legendary Sword Dojo is in Tosa in the Sengoku Jidai period(MI/Warlords). If you move fast you can take it in the second year. The longer you leave it the more troops they will build each year so I normally take it straight away(well after Imagawa get the boot). The sword dojo will more than likely be damaged so you will still be able to produce Nodachi there but you really wanna be teching Satsuma for No dachi as it has the honour bonus.
The legendary swordsmen event can be achieved quite easily by using your Damiyo a lot in battle. The main problem in achieving it is that the soldier who makes the 5-7 kills has to survive the battle. Your Damiyo's heavy cav are tough so use them to take on lone archer groups they can also hold their own against low honour ashigaru but beware the Yari samurai.

[Xecthilor]

Ahoy and welcome I actually just got Shogun Warlord Edition a few days ago, until now I've been busy with MTW and VI. I had the original Shogun, but I wanted the mongol invasion, so I've got a campaign going now around the same time you do. Anyways, as long as you're not autocalcing the battles, all you have to do is win some decent victories and sooner or later one of your soldiers will achieve it. You'll know it when it happens, a little movie of your hero training in a dojo will play.

[JAG]

Quote[/b] (Monk @ April 28 2004,17:39)]This talk of Shogun is making me feel a bit nostalgic... Maybe it's time i gave it another go. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Same, I may reinstall and have a bash... If only I coudl find my CD key which I have mis placed :| It is on the Cd case but mine broke and I do not know where the other half is, the most annoying thing is that I have Mongol Invasion but cannot isntall it because of the lack of shogun GAH http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Welcome Dragatus http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Nelson]

I always get the Legendary Swordsman event soon in my campaigns. I'm not sure why, but I do use samurai archers in melee a lot. They are the only foot troops that use swords until you can raise nodachi or teppo.

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Although I'm a Medieval/VI player, welcome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
_

[Dragatus]

As I already mentioned in my first post I only have Shogun Total War, without the Mongol Invasion (or Warlord). Thanks for the advice considreing Tosa anyway, it'll come in handy once I do have it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Got the legendary swordsman event after playing cat and mouse for a while with the rebels that remained after I eliminated the Mori (sent ninja to assassinate the heirs, then killed the damiyo in battle).

I found out that if I captured a province and abandoned it, the rebels would send a single unit to take it back. Then I just sent in my damiyo along with a proper counter for the rebel unit (archers for yari troops, cavalry for archers) and when the enemy started to run for their lives my damyo and his bodyguard would hunt them down. The beauty of it is that there are only 11 men in my damiyo unit, so they don't get into each other's way as much as 60 yari cavalry would.

As a bonus the nearby rebel provinces are now poorly guarded and taking them will be a piece of cake. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


New question: I got a visit from the Portuguese traders and accepted their offer since this doesn't automaically make me christian. What I would like to know is what exactly are the effects of becoming a christian. I know it gives me acces to guns and that I can't use warrior monks, but I wonder if there's more to it.

I used musketeers in my previous campaign, but was not impressed very much and still prefer archers. Maybe I just didn't use them well, but anyway. On the other hand I heard that No Dachi make a good substitute for warrior monks, since they attract less arrows.

[Gregoshi]

I knew it wouldn't be long before the Shogun cavalry showed up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_charge.gif Thanks for the help.

BTW, I recently started a STW campaign - and actually finished it (victory, of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ). It was a lot of fun, but the last opposing factions (Hojo & Uesugi) kind of self-destructed on each other. Kind of a cool thing to see happen (Shinano was littered with bones of the dead) but anti-climactic for my poor Mori. I had a blast playing it though.

[VikingHorde]

Welcome to the Org Dragatus http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[[DnC]]

Welcome and enjoy your stay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Sasaki Kojiro]

When you become christian you can still train warrior monks and your troops still suffer morale penalty from enemy warrior monks despite what the manual says. However you will get significant unrest in any province with a buddhist temple in it and the rebels will include warrior monks in their ranks. The morale effect from guns can be quite devestating though in original shogun neither kind can fire in the rain so the are not as good as in MI. You can get a lot of extra koku from becoming christian, each trading post is 200 extra koku and once you get a cathedral you will get 200 extra koku for each church you have...which can mean a lot of extra koku.

[Dragatus]

I think I'll try becoming a Christian then. I have lots of Shinobi that should be able to keep order in provinces with temples. I can still build temples, right?

How about No Dachi vs. Warrior Monks? In a strategy guide I found on the net there is a chart listing which units are good vs. which units and according to it the two seem to have very similar strengths and weaknesses.

[HicRic]

I've always found Warrior Monks to be more useful than No-Dachi, although ND are cheaper, I find WM can live through melee much better. I like to tie up units with an attack on the front with WM, and then flank with ND. Makes mincemeat of almost anything. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

You know, I've played Shogun SP through five times now, and not once have I tried becoming Christian. Seemed to much of an irritation to me-but I should really give it a try sometime.

[JAG]

It isn't worth it imo, causes far too many problems than it is worth.

[Dragatus]

Becoming a Christian is seemingly good for your koku. Jesuit priests only cost half as much as emissaries and once you have that Cathedral each Church provides extra koku as well.

However, I am already in a state where I have more koku than I need and I haven't even finished that Cathedral.

Also, while Arquebusiers and Musketeers are both cheaper than Samurai or Cavalry Archers they don't seem to be much better. If I understand correctly their main advantage is that they can pierce heavy armour, but that only really matters when fighting against Naginatas.

If I sum up I'd say that Christianity isn't all that great and I doubt I'll ever again bother with it.

[HicRic]

Well, I've been playing around a bit, and it seems Musketeers are really nice on defense. The only problem is, I can't use them in defense in SP very well, as the AI always realises I have them and attacks in rain Alas. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
In my game I'm playing through at the moment I've managed to get a cathedral up and running pretty quickly, so the extra koku I'm getting in is actually really useful. But I don't think getting musketeers in exchange for WM is really a good trade-off-until I can find an effective way of using them in attack (so I can choose dry weather). Morale penalty is very handy, though-and musketeers are utterly brilliant on bridge defense.

[insolent1]

The AI in single player dosen't pick rainy days it just picks the first day regardless of weather, its the same in MTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
I don't bother much with Arquebusiers as they are short range & most importantly they can't fire in rain. Musketeers can fire in all weather(with MI) but they misfire a lot especially if its heavy rain. They have same range as SA & it can be increased with a height advantage. Three ranks deep is the optimal formation but I use different ranks depending on the space available. They also have a lot of ammo so if you are fighting big battles they are more useful than SA. The most important attribute for the guns is the morale penalty they give.... its phenonamal to see what they can do to an army.
Example
Usuegi 1580 Campaign
After a few years I took Shinano from Takeda & laid seige to the castle. I wanted to keep the citadel so I decided to assault. My army was a mix of SA, YS some CA's & 2 monks, the army was lead by Date Masamune(rank 6) so all my units where around 5 honour & the monks where from Kaga & they where 6 honour. The Takeda army was bits of cav units that had managed to escape the previous months slaughter & there where 2 bits of Arquebusiers(1 unit had 16men the other had 15).
I was confident of an easy victory so I decided to despatch a lone YS to clear out the castle. The ARq's where on each side of the gate & started firing at my advancing YS. I thought no problem those YS are 5 honour & they werent taking any casulties from the guns but as soon as they engaged in melee they routed & most where killed while running away. I was a bit miffed at this so I sent some monks to guide them to budda........the monks routed before they even engaged in melee
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
So eventually I brought up my SA & targeted the Arq's, some of the SA routed but they finally managed to kill most of the Arq's. I let the monks who ran, redeem themselves by clearing out the castle.

So don't underestimate the morale penalty of guns in STW.
Btw when you convert to christaninity(i'd reommend at least 2 shinobi in each province as the revolts can be a real problem especially when your army is at teh other end of japan) you can still build temples so its well worth it considering its another 50 years till the dutch show up with their smokin weapons http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[insolent1]

Apart from Guns the other main advantage of converting is the koku. It can make every province worth 600koku every year. For the initial outlay of 2400 koku(small castle(250), port(750), large castle(500), trading post(500) & church(400). So after 4 years it pays for itself(excluding the cathedral) & everything after that is profit unaffected by bad harvests. I always convert unless i'm playing the 1580 campaign & dutch are only 10-15 years away.
If your Shimazu or Mori & have a lot of useless provinces its definitely worth even without the guns.

[Dragatus]

I changed my mind somewhat considering both gunpowder weapons and Christianity.

I used both arquebusiers and musketeers with good effect playing as the Shimazu. I was especially impressed by their seemingly endless supply of ammo. In bridge battles my archers often run out of arrows, but the gunners just kept shooting. I'm also quite fond of the effect sudden gunfire out of a forest can have in low-sight weather like fog.

Also, it turned out that I wasn't just quite in the state where income was unimportant after all, so the churches helped quite a lot.

I missed the Warrior Monks though. No Dachi are nice, but staying alive is not one of their virtues. so I had to do quite some restocking during battles.


And I managed to come up with yet another question: are Yari Ashigaru useful for anything else than canon fodder?

I remember this one battle where my Yari Samurai were wavering and I decided to send in the YA to help but just before clashing with the enemy they changed their mind, turned around and ran. Not to mention that this display of cowardice managed to rout my entire army. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Dragatus @ May 09 2004,15:15)]And I managed to come up with yet another question: are Yari Ashigaru useful for anything else than canon fodder?
Yari Ashigaru's virtues are:

Cost: you can use them as garrisons or any other place were numbers are more important than quality. Like in a bridge battle, or as flanking force against not-very-strong or wavering enemies.

Speed: they are amongst the fastest infantry and good for pursuing the heavily armored samurai if cavalry isn't available. Their name translates as 'light feet'. You can also use them to lure infantry forces into killing zones, but their low morale makes them less useful for that.

Status: samurai look down upon ashigaru, thinking of them as inferior warriors (as they are). So routing ashigaru will not upset samurai (although they do take notice). This non-elite status makes ashigaru even more useful as cannon fodder: if you use mainly samurai, it doesn't matter much for the morale of your army if they run away.

Spears: yari ashigaru are armed with spears and gain a bonus when fighting cavalry. Combined with their speed they can do good damage against unsuspecting samurai on horseback. Yari cavalry and cavalry archers cannot stand up in a direct fight against yari ashigaru. Naginata cavalry and heavy cavalry can, but will probably lose a significant number of men. And that's good, because you've only lost a few cheap ashigaru.

Their weak points are their morale and their bad combat abilities against anything but cavalry or ashigaru arquebusiers. You can't rely upon ashigaru, so you shouldn't use them as a reserve. If things are going bad their morale won't be up to it.

I hope this answers your question.

[Dragatus]

Thanks for the answer.

Acctually I wasn't using them as a reserve, they were supposed to guard my archers against the enemy cavalry before my YS destroyed it.

[neal]

i was recently piled by thousands of rebels in sagami,i had a few no-dachi and two units of musketeers i thought i'd die honourably..but i held the whole army up with my dachi and the musketeers shot the hordes of rebels away, i lost about 30 dachi and 1 musketeer and killed something like 900 rebels,they were reluctant to fight again in sagami... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

[Drake]

Welcome