FEARLESS ARCHERS

[lancer63]

As a rule of thumb I don't do weapons upgrade for ranged units so that I can stretch my budget a bit more. But every now and again I forget that and send a couple of them to melee school. It pays off.
A few nights ago my Spanish king decided it was time to take back Granada from the Elmo Heads, so he went with all his hosts to make war against the infidels.
In the frirst battle I had (amongst others) two vanilla archers with armor and weapons upgrade level 1. As usual the battle opened up with an archery duel, but to my surprise this time the enemy (which was defending) decided to send his 4 AUM units forth with such speed my archers had a hard time getting out of the way. The AUMs and lesser troops crashed on my spearmen, FMAAs and a couple MSs and the four archer units I had, had all but spent their ammo.
I had to choose between a long,long withdrawal of my 4 archer units so that I can call in fresh troops or comit the to battle too. Since I was desperately short of men I regretfuly turned my archers into melee units and sent them into the meat grinder. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-anxious.gif

To my surprise that helped decide the battle rather quickly, altough all four units suffered heavy loses, at least the ones with weapon upgrades managed to kill or capture some 80 enemies between the two. I witnessed an upgraded archer unit, spank sarracen infantrymen into a nearby forest and then ran them out of the map. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

From now on my bow boys will all sport new shinny lil' swords, so that they can defen themselves better and to use 'em as a last resource melee reserve.
I know it's more expensive to upgrade weapons on units that may never have the chance to H2H combat. But it's more expensive for me to have units that don't stand a chance at H2H combat. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Ah, but by the time I can upgrade my desert archers, I can get Futuwwas instead. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Or have Murabitins from the get-go. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[son of spam]

ya, I usually don't bother with weapon upgrades for vanilla archers either. However, even with a weapon upgrade, I find *vanilla* archers to be quite weak. Unless you charge them in from the rear, I don't think that they'll do that much damage to the enemy. Not to crticize your strategy, but I think you could have won or at least tied the battle anyway with your melee units. Maybe your archers also had higher valor?

[gaijinalways]

Hmm, I think the point here is not just winning the battle, but also the positioning of the foresaid missile troops who were unlikely to be able to retreat off the screen in time to get replacements into the battle. Yes, it might not seem like the money is well spent on extras for these guys, though armor enhancements also help in straight contests of shoot outs with other military units.

Generally, I hold to the same idea already expressed in this thread, using the missile troops to attack a flank or hind position is usually preferable. But sometimes we don't have a choice, as time and position of troops is a factor.

Also, by upgrading or making these guys initially with the upgrades, they are more likely to survive any contest and thus gain higher valor. I have had archers attack knight, sometimes just as a delaying tactic or just because my usual protecting units routed and the missile units had to fend for themselves or perish (can't usually outrun a knight though the AI manages somehow)

[WorkNeglecter]

Note: using this thread to tell cool archer story

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif
Weapons upgrades seem to make a difference.

Last night: attempted castle breakout in Papal States.
Me: Aragon, medmod, early/expert. Enemy: Egypt.
My troops: 0-star general: 16 v2 RK, 50 v0 FMAA, 90 v0 FS, 2 units of v1 a2 w1 Genoese Archers.
Enemy: 3-star general (40 mam cav); 2 full units mam HA; 3 units of 60 archers, 35 crossbowmen, 75 muwahid; 40 bedouin camels; 25 ghulam cav; some small remnants of spear and peasant units.
I was only planning to abandon the province, but when I saw that the enemy has meanwhile removed much of his forces, I decided to try the attack. Because of my pathetic general I didn't expect to win, but I thought I could take out some troops before quitting the field.
Terrain: very hilly, many valleys, few trees. It's the map with a windmill and village on a central ridge (Hill 1) surrounded by valleys, and a wooded hill across (Hill 2).

I'm in a valley. The enemy splits his forces and sends one mam HA with the 60 archers and 35 x-bows up Hill 1, and sends the rest of the troops up Hill 2, in the distance out of range, except for two units of archers, which are in the valley between the two hills.

My whole army starts to climb hill 1. Suddenly the valley archers are in range of my genoas and I start to fire on them and send the FMAA down in loose formation to keep them from leaving the valley. Meanwhile my RK's are reaching the ridge of hill 1 but taking few casualties from the enemy missiles up there. My RK's charge the mam HA's on top of Hill 1 and plow through the enemy archers who are in between.

Meanwhile in the valley my FMAA have somehow made contact with the first enemy archer line (I had been charging the back line). 1 genoa continues to fire on the rear enemy archer line and the other starts firing on the x-bows.

The rest of the enemy army is sitting atop Hill 2 doing nothing.

The Hill 1 Mam HA has withdrawn to the edge of the map. I take my RK's and charge the x-bows. End of them.

Meanwhile my FMAA's have routed one enemy archer unit in the valley, while the second valley unit is retreating up Hill 1 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif I send my FS down on them and capture them all.

My RK's charge the Hill 1 Mam HA unit, which has come back from the edge of the map. It panics, engages, and is quickly routed.

The second Mam HA and the camels start coming down hill 2, but by now my Genoas are on Hill 1 and fire on them. They retreat.

I've got 98 prisoners, wiped out 5 enemy units, and lost maybe 10 troops.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
but the clock is running down and the enemy is still atop Hill 2, and one Genoa unit is almost out of arrows.

I debated stopping there, killing the prisoners and retreating, but I thought luck was with me, so I pressed on.

I approach Hill 2 (which is on the edge of the map) from their right flank. My archers are on the slope and in range of the Mam HA's. We start exchanging fire; I lose some but they are slowly killed. Meanwhile I bring my FS up along their right flank, where there are a few trees.

They are on the hill top but they aren't charging my exposed archers (I have the FMAA a bit behind them). They advance the camels towards me and I take out 25 with my archers.

My FS are in position, facing up the hill. They finally get charged by the muwahids and the surviving camels. I bring my upgraded Genoas to support their right flank (their left flank is the boundary) and FMAAs to take out the spears and peasants which then charge. Then the ghulams charge my right flank. I charge them with my RK's.

My line is holding up well, even though I'm fighting uphill My Genoas are killing everything.

The enemy general, a full Mam Cav unit, is quietly observing from the hilltop.

But my RK is losing badly against the Ghulams, I try to withdraw but I lose all but the general. I can't get him out of the battle and I wait for him to die, and concentrate on the infantry melee.

When I next look, I see a rout of cavalry. I assume it's my general who's fleeing, but he, alone has routed the ghulam cav and is chasing them off the map. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif

At that point, the enemy general withdraws. He's at the edge of the map, so suddenly the battle ends. Big victory for me: lost 20 genoas, 10 FMAAs, 5 FS, and 15 RK's, attacking uphill against a better general.

Moral of story: armor and weapon upgrades on Genoas can turn them into killing machines, even when very tired, against a fresh enemy. Also, never lose hope

Of course, the Egyptians made a fatal error splitting their army, but that's not my fault
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Fortune favors the bold. There's a rational basis for that, but I won't get into it here.

Here's a list of foot missile troops and their melee values, as given on the Clan Berserk site. Fast units are marked with an F. I like fast units with some melee punch. They bag LOTS of prisoners when the other side routs:

Sherwood foresters: 20F
Hashishin: 19F
Almughavars: 15
Nizari: 13F

Janissary Infantry: 10
Futuwwas: 9
Golden Horde Warriors: 9
Handgunners: 8.5

Longbows: 5.5
Murabitin Javelins: 5.5F
Naphtha Throwers: 5

Arquebuster: 4.5
Janissary Bows 4.5
Ottoman Infantry: 4.5
Pavise Arbalester: 4.5
Pavise Crossbows: 4.5
Trebizond Archers: 4.5
Turcomon Foot: 4F

Bulgarian Brigands: 3.5F
Arbalester: 3
Crossbows: 3
Jobbagy: 2F
Kerns: 1F

Slav Javs: 0.5F
Genoese sailors: 0F
Mameluke Handgunners: 0
Spanish Javs: 0F
Desert Archers: -0.5F
Archers: -2.5

[son of spam]

@workneglecter

Yeah, but genoese sailors are already amazingly good melee units, almost like hybrids. (I think they get +3 attack and +4 morale over regular x-bows). I'm not saying that hybrids don't need armor/weapon upgrades, because you are probably going to use them in battle anyway, but vanilla archers aren't worth it.

Good battle tho. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[katank]

for foot archers, armor all the way and perhaps weapons and morale.

for horse archers, morale comes before armor which comes before weapons.

armor is always good for archers but I just can't justify weapons for vanilla archers when you can use the iron for maa or knights

[lancer63]

Quote[/b] (son of spam @ April 29 2004,19:56)]ya, I usually don't bother with weapon upgrades for vanilla archers either. However, even with a weapon upgrade, I find *vanilla* archers to be quite weak. Unless you charge them in from the rear, I don't think that they'll do that much damage to the enemy. Not to crticize your strategy, but I think you could have won or at least tied the battle anyway with your melee units. Maybe your archers also had higher valor?
Yes, my archers had 4 valor due to the general. Like you I don't keep arround my ranged units after they have spent their ammo. But the elmos have the annoying bad taste of charging when defending instead of stand in place, like all well brought up solyers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif , and take their medicine like everybody else. If I withdraw 4 units of archer at the same time, I weaken my force by 1/4th since it takes forever to call in fresh troops, by the time they're available, my army would be routing. And weak melee units as them may be, they're better than thin air to help hold a 1000 men charge.
This doesn't mean my vanilla archers are hybrids now, but now I have an alternative. Thanks for your comments. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

I use weapon upgrades for Vanilla Archers only in very rare cases;
The Welsh with their cheap, high valor Archers being one of them.

A silver weapon/armor valor three "Vanilla" Archer is a dangerous man for those spearmen... and a very costeffective one too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif.

BTW got to love Welsh Bandits after they get upgraded.
Togheter with simple Archers they form the backbone of my Welsh armys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Maychargewithoutorders]

I always upgrade my archers for the viking period games, i think its needed due to the limited amount of troops available and they can turn the tide in heated confrontations. Tho i dont usually bother with the other eras.


Quote[/b] ]BTW got to love Welsh Bandits after they get upgraded.
Together with simple Archers they form the backbone of my Welsh armys

Too right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

When I faced the hords of Scots with my Welsh with two fullstacks of Archers, WelshBandits and two Armored Spearmen.

I Blitzed like madly that (Expert) game, taking out the Mercians and Saxons very fast, even though the Mercians respawned.

The Irish invasion 0f 840 was destroyed, Civil War boke out and Ireland became mine. I slowed down and build up my eco. while waiting for nice powerful Scots.

I attacked a small provinces which name I now forgot http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif from the Sea with no harbour with a 9-star general and this almost purly Archer army.

After three turns sitting the Scots threw all they had, 8500 man with the 5* King, but a good deal of peasents (~1500) among them.

On this bright day I arranged 10 normal Archers three Bandits, the General and the Spears on a impressive slope and waited fo the Scottish onslaught.

The massacre which followed was impressive. While the Scots creeped slowly up the slope the sheer volume of arrows brought havoc into their ranks. The King gets eliminated, his best troops destroyed by the Bandits while the rest is targeted by the Archers.

After the first run out of Ammo I replace them, wave and wave breaks, the Archers cycle until I have only valor 5 silver Bandits and some valor silver 8 archers left, which ultimatly run out of arrows, but throw every wave back with help of the spears. I hardly lost any men, only ~100 against the Scottish 6000... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Had huge luck with the weather, I must confess http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[katank]

that's quite true.

I had similar luck in an English game in which I secured navarre and aragon and defended against the almos hordes with my massed longbows on the almost vertical slopes of the pyrrennes.

massive slaughter.

other time, as byz, I used almost exclusively treb archers and despite torrential rain, managed to shoot down the entire Danish royal family.

I took many arrows, but they fell regardless http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

Yeah massed archers can be devastating sometimes.

But I'll never forget how a unit of valor 8 silver Archers carved through the enemy spearmen like butter http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif

Simply incredible...

Killing the Royal families with arrows needs patience, especially when it's raining. My Bandits too needed a good deal of time to eliminate the scottish Kings http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[katank]

actually, it didn't take too long.

my byz inf got them nice and stationary so I could maneuver my treb archers to the back and shoot from there, negating their shields and 3-4 units of archers at a single 20 man unit reduces it to nothing fairly quickly. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif