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A.Saturnus
04-29-2004, 23:08
By an idea of Gawain of Orkeny we have now to threads in the Tavern that are dedicated to conservative/liberal discussions. These threads were created with the thought that only those who identify themselves with the appropriate political "direction" participate in said threads.
The Tavern is a place where people of anywhere in the world can discuss their thoughts. It is a rare possibility to come together with people of entirely different background. However, discussing with people that have a different culture and entirely different viewpoints can sometimes be tiring. Especially when the discussions are about politics. Because that is so, it may be good to have a place where you can discuss only with people that are like-minded. That is where these rooms come into play. People can there stay among themselves and possibly recreate from the tiring of more "hostile" discussions.
Personaly I think this can be a good thing. But the main purpose of the Tavern is still to communicate with all members. Thatīs why we will only allow these two rooms, regardless of the fact that other political varities may feel excluded. These two will cover the views of most visitors of the Tavern and making rooms for every conviction is simply not feasable.
They should be seen as experimental. If we should feel at any moment that they are counter-productive, we will close them.
Note that thereīs no rule that would prevent anyone from posting in a thread he isnīt "supposed" to be in by the inventor. It is therefore your own decision to respect the wishes of those who want to stay among their own. Should someone try to get one of those threads closed by spamming it or other means, we will leave the thread open but punish who tried that. Both threads will be monitored and all forum rules apply entirely. Should one of those threads turn into flamming or spamming, we may close it but leave the other one open.

If you disagree with the existence of these threads, then the place to discuss it is here.

Kaiser of Arabia
04-30-2004, 00:10
CHEERS FOR SATURNUS http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

JAG
04-30-2004, 00:28
I think Dhepee got it bang on with one of his posts :


Quote[/b] ]
As I see it this is an open forum to all org members. Tosa and the other mods grant us all the privilege to post in various forums. Nowhere do I see a rule that anybody but the Tosa and the mods can restrict or seek to restrict anybody's right or ability to post in any given thread, the subhead and the tone of the posts in here seem to violate the spirit of that openess.

In fact the whole concept behind message boards is that they are a free flowing mix of ideas. If you want to limit the ideas posted in a thread I would suggest that you find a board that caters exclusively to a certain point of view. Anybody can post any idea they want in any thread as long it isn't a flame, a lie, derogatory, or defamatory. If you want to ignore them fine, but you cannot seek to exclude them.

I would further say that I am dissappointed in the org conservatives who up until this point seemed more than willing to defend any point to the death. If you set up zones of exclusion you are essentially killing the Tavern's thought process because Redleg and Jag will no longer try and show each other the middle ground, for example.

Instead the forum will be made up of a couple of threads where opposing ideologies spout unchallenged dogma which is neither interesting nor thought provoking. If you are so afraid that the other side will attack your beliefs then maybe you are afraid that you beliefs can't hold up to scrutiny. Furthermore, and this is where I am dissappointend in the thread Gun Control Joke Thread I said that I had never seen a conservative ask that a post be taken down, instead they always debated it. Now you are doing just that. It's like the old saying goes, "If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen." I would urge you to reconsider this thread because while I don't always agree with you; I respect you willingness to defend your point against any liberal who comes along.

Furthermore, these "clubs" seem like more a destructive force than a constructive force. They serve only to seperate two factions in the Tavern and remove the ability to reach or even see a common ground. In many threads you see someone, in the midst of a heated debate, say "good point" or "really, never thought of that" or even just compliment each other. If you establish two seperate clubs you remove that potential for each side seeing that the other might be right in some way or about something and you create a situation of mutual antagonism where an attack can be made in the liberal club and responded to in the conservative club without the two post sharing the same thread. It seems like a situation with the potential for lots of misunderstanding more ill-feeling between members as opposed to less.

The spirit of these forums is open debate, freely meeting each other's ideas head on. If you really want to split off into a liberal club where only liberal ideas are discussed and a conservative club where only conservative ideas are discussed I think that is better suited to a forum that is already established as such. Until Tosa creates a board for conservatives and a board for liberals both sides should try to understand that they have to live with each other and that's life in the Tavern, like it or not.


I really do hope you assess your situation, the tavern should be a place for EVERYONE on the org, there should not be threads which are meant for certain groups and individuals and restrict posting from others.

A.Saturnus
04-30-2004, 00:47
Quote[/b] ]"If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen."

Well, I see it as being out of the kitchen. I really hope this wonīt stop debating between the political directions. But thatīs up to all members. Iīm quite sure that there are threads youīre not interested in. At least most surely have those. You can handle these the same. These threads do not force anyone to anything, they only offer possibilities.
We moderators cannot make sure that these threads work the way they are supposed to do and not create mutual antagonism. It is up to you to prevent this. Only you can make this idea a constructive one, just as only you can make the Tavern and the Org a place worth visiting.

Kaiser of Arabia
04-30-2004, 00:53
The Tavern IS a place for everyone. However, these clubs, so to speak, are a place where people with similar political views can discuss politics without getting crucified, metophorically speaking. It's really just a place where you can have an intellegent conversation between two agreeing parties, also a place where politics don't turn into an argument, but a conversation where you can have fun and not get burnt alive doing it.
Just my opinion.
-Capo

JAG
04-30-2004, 01:04
And if you want that why don't you go to a conservative forum specifically for that? The tavern and org should be about people with different nationalities and different views expressing them together. I think it is a shame that we let groups of people allow themselves their own threads, kinda takes away from what the org should be about imo.

Kaiser of Arabia
04-30-2004, 01:29
Because there are no conservative forums,
Besides, it's not like we banned you from our thread,
we can't.

Gawain of Orkeny
04-30-2004, 01:52
A.Saturnus thanks for the opportunity to make this work. I'm sure that we will get in many arguments even among those of like political leanings we conservatives don't plan on patting each other on the back and saying how wonderful we are we want constructive criticism which I'm sure we can all provide plenty of. But I am sure it will be a far more civil discussion than if we were arguing with the opposite side.


Quote[/b] ]And if you want that why don't you go to a conservative forum specifically for that? The tavern and org should be about people with different nationalities and different views expressing them together. I think it is a shame that we let groups of people allow themselves their own threads, kinda takes away from what the org should be about imo.

So is it you who now decides what the org is about? How about at least giving it a try and seeing what happens before you protest so much. I remember you saying that flaming was going to go on. The only thing I have seen that even resembles it was from you on your question about conservatives being evil in the Liberal club. As far as it is a shame that we let groups of people allow themselves their own threads. Thats what clubs are for like minded people. This doesn't effect the org only these two threads. We should close it just because you don't like it? We may even learn something new on how each side thinks by not getting into polarized arguments.

Malcolm Big Head
04-30-2004, 02:16
The rooms are a good idea as long as they don't continue to multiply like rabbits. Sorry to any rabbits who can't keep up with the club for X posts. Nearly every topic of a political nature breaks down into a right vs. left argument and I don't see a problem with having to posts which can turn into right vs far right and left vs. far left arguments.

Demon of Light
04-30-2004, 03:09
What follows is something I posted in the Conservative room. I somehow get the impression that all of perhaps 3 people read it so I am placing it here.

-------------------------------------------------

Directed towards anyone that might listen to me who posts here despite requests not to:

There are people here who think differently. There is no harm in that. These people are looking to be able to have a place where they don't have to deal with people with drastically different viewpoints. That interaction is something they'd like to escape from occasionally. Even if you don't agree with what they are doing, I would think it almost impossible that any person with an ounce of empathy would be unable to understand WHY they are doing this. (If conducting this empathy exercise, please remember that empathy involves NOT assigning malicious or petty motives to the person you're empathizing with)

The atmosphere outside is venemous and they want a place that is free from it. Many would say that the atmosphere outside is caused by those seeking to avoid it. Blame is not at issue here (and if it were, there would be plenty to go around). What is at issue is who should and should not post here. I understand that no one is obligated to refrain from posting here. There are no rules against it. However, a request has been made. Even if the request seems unreasonable, nothing is lost by honoring. Cities will not fall and the sky will not tumble if Conservatives are allowed to post in one place free of Liberals, Moderates, and Idaho (Whom I will not place in a group as per what I perceive his wishes to be). Can we not show a little respect for these people by honoring their wishes?

Demon of Light
04-30-2004, 03:28
Let me also point something out . Most of the major players involved in this have repeatedly not only engaged in but indeed started flame wars with each other. People have been called heartless, stupid, narrow-minded, inconsequential, hateful, etc. etc. For a while there has been a tendency to disregard entire arguments raised in opposition to a given point based on nothing more than the person raising it. Hell, the atmosphere is getting so bad that I've started to notice a tendency for people to not even read all of the post they are responding to and simply go straight for the jugular. Often, they won't even acknowledge that they misread anything and continue trying to attack their target. When we arrive at this point, it means that communication has ceased and what we are dealing with now is the result of that.

Shahed
04-30-2004, 04:01
Hi All,

Got a quick question for you:
Is totalwar.org a game forum or a political forum ?

Gawain of Orkeny
04-30-2004, 06:18
The org is a game forum. But maybe you have had to much to drink and forgot you are in a tavern http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Dhepee
04-30-2004, 16:28
Quote[/b] (Demon of Light @ April 29 2004,22:28)]Let me also point something out . Most of the major players involved in this have repeatedly not only engaged in but indeed started flame wars with each other. People have been called heartless, stupid, narrow-minded, inconsequential, hateful, etc. etc. For a while there has been a tendency to disregard entire arguments raised in opposition to a given point based on nothing more than the person raising it. Hell, the atmosphere is getting so bad that I've started to notice a tendency for people to not even read all of the post they are responding to and simply go straight for the jugular. Often, they won't even acknowledge that they misread anything and continue trying to attack their target. When we arrive at this point, it means that communication has ceased and what we are dealing with now is the result of that.
Demon of Light I agree with you to an extent but if that is the case I think that these clubs are treating the symptoms not the disease.

I think that what the Conservative Club is reacting to is not so much the debating of conservative issues as it is the attacks on people who have conservative beliefs. I agree the that in the last couple of months the number and degree of ad hominem attacks seems to have increased and the willingness of people to even seek a middle ground has decreased.

A true debate is never an attack on a person, it is a critique of ideas, and any debate that seeks to be useful in nature should ultimately seek to find a middle ground. When I say middle ground I do not mean one side or the other should change its mind rather I mean that both sides should recognize that they come from different backgrounds and belief systems, that in some cases their belief systems are similar in nature but topically different, and that despite it all we are all human.

Many political debates do not recognize either of those principles and devolve into personal attacks that use words or ideas that while not directly flaming serve many of the same purposes. Labels like, "heartless, cruel, blind, naive, do-nothing, appeaser, red, etc", all serve to flame without being the sort of sharp personal attacks usually associated with flaming. Labels with implications behind them like "Euro, American, Muslim, Christian, Jew" when said in a certain way in arguments also serve the same purpose. I also see the frequent implication that certain political affiliations are associated with certain character traits: coward, fool, brute, etc. All of this straddles a line between personal attack and critiquing an idea. This is contributing to a poisoned air in the Tavern. Establishing two clubs eliminates the frequency and intensity of some of these attacks but not what was behind them. The kitchen has gotten too hot and people are getting out.

In the short term this might be a good thing, it lets people cool off for awhile, but in the long term it does nothing. What has contributed to this problem of veiled flaming is a lack of civility between people who are ordinarily civil.

There are quite a few threads that have gotten downright toxic and then you look at another thread and all the same participants are trading jokes. What this proves to me is that all of us are pretty civil people who might well get along pretty well in person but for whatever reason when we discuss certain topics the fur starts to fly.

If the Tavern is going to remain a working part of the Org then those of us who post in the Tavern need to learn to respect one another, if we disagree remember that we are disagreeing about ideas, refrain from even veiled personal attacks, respect one another's backgrounds and beliefs, and remember that none of us are perfect in character or belief.

My long term concern is that having two parallel clubs to discuss ideas might work for awhile but eventually one club will discuss an idea that really gets under the other's skin. The other offended club will start to fiercely debate in their own club against the idea argued in the first club. Eventually these two parallel arguments will escalate to the point where one club thread is flaming the other. If the flaming club thread is closed all of its contributors might feel a great deal of resentment toward the other club thread and this will only further increase the tension felt between the two to a level that I have not yet experienced in the Tavern.

Beyond that new posters in the Tavern might never really be exposed to the interplay of ideas and instead restrict themselves to their respective club and not really be a part of the Tavern itself.

Option two is that everyone will get bored with these clubs and they'll eventually sink like every other thread does.

Gregoshi
05-02-2004, 19:27
Very good points to both DoL and Dhepee. Whether the club idea is going to work or not is up to the club members. They can either use it constructively as a support mechanism for each other or use it to further fan the flames of hostilities between the clubs. As A.Saturnus indicated in the beginning, this is experimental. If it doesn't work, the clubs will be closed down. Ideally, as you suggested Dhepee, the clubs will be a temporary need for the Tavern and will eventually fall into disuse once everyone has calmed down.

Teutonic Knight
05-04-2004, 19:14
I stand together with Gawain and I think it's a good idea and we can make it work...

ICantSpellDawg
05-15-2004, 23:32
i think that it is a good idea

i will just go into the liberal room, read something and responsd to it in a new thread

its a good idea, cuz then i wouldnt be invading their club with biggoted spam

Navaros
07-12-2004, 12:09
i think that you Mods should enforce a new rule, only for those threads specifically: "only Conservatives may post in the Conservative Club thread", and vice versa

this would allow those of like-mind to have good discussions rather than just one big huge hostile argument.

you see, any time a "hot button" subject is discussed at anywhere else, then it is bound to get hostile, confrontational and antagonistic (even if those things are not necessarily breaking the Org rules, which they shouldn't be since we don't live in Carebear land here). while i understand that the Tavern is there so people of differing views can discuss things; it would be nice if there was one thread in the Tavern where people are free to discuss things in a non-confrontational way, exclusively with others who share their viewpoint. that would be a nice change of pace. a "break from the norm", if you will.

letting Liberals post in the Conservative Club thread entirely defeats the purpose of having that thread even exist http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

TosaInu
07-12-2004, 12:56
Quote[/b] (Navaros @ July 12 2004,06:09)]i think that you Mods should enforce a new rule, only for those threads specifically: "only Conservatives may post in the Conservative Club thread", and vice versa

this would allow those of like-mind to have good discussions rather than just one big huge hostile argument.

you see, any time a "hot button" subject is discussed at anywhere else, then it is bound to get hostile, confrontational and antagonistic (even if those things are not necessarily breaking the Org rules, which they shouldn't be since we don't live in Carebear land here). while i understand that the Tavern is there so people of differing views can discuss things; it would be nice if there was one thread in the Tavern where people are free to discuss things in a non-confrontational way, exclusively with others who share their viewpoint. that would be a nice change of pace. a "break from the norm", if you will.

letting Liberals post in the Conservative Club thread entirely defeats the purpose of having that thread even exist http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
Hello,

I agree. But I hate to go as far as say: you are not allowed to post in that topic. It's sad enough when someone is removed from a forum or the entire board.

It would be great if people avoided conflicts (not discussions) instead of making them.

There's also a responsibility for the Conservatives in the Conservatives topic: it's no free ticket to get nasty there. It will be quite pro Conservative no doubt, and that's fine, but plain namecalling Liberals isn't. And perhaps some sound discussion by a Liberal in the Conservative turf is a welcome thing. You know, dropping a way to look at something and not a 5 page long post to persuade including veiled attacks.

Disclaimer I continued using the Conservative topic as example. I have no idea what's going on there at the moment nor whether it's actually used. So, if you're participating there and something happens with your account, it's a technical problem: please mail tosainu@totalwar.org.

Edit: iB code.

JAG
07-12-2004, 14:03
When conservatives of the board feel that a thread named after their ideology is a place to freely abuse the liberals on here, it is a very sad day on these boards. I only entered when there was abuse thrown towards others, and it is very wrong to stop epople posting anywhere on these boards if they have done nothign wrong. Why do you need a special place for your own thought? Can you not say then in the topics already there? And if not, why not?

Navaros
07-12-2004, 14:37
Quote[/b] (TosaInu @ July 12 2004,06:56)]It would be great if people avoided conflicts (not discussions) instead of making them.
yes, it would be great. but unfortunately, that could only occur in an ideal world. which is not the world we live in.

humans are emotional beings. therefore, anytime a hotbutton emotional issue is brought up, humans are bound to strongly confront anyone who has a radically opposite viewpoint to themselves

when passion and conviction are involved, there can be no "neutral discussion" among humans. that is simply reality.

TosaInu
07-12-2004, 14:37
Quote[/b] (JAG @ July 12 2004,08:03)]When conservatives of the board feel that a thread named after their ideology is a place to freely abuse the liberals on here, it is a very sad day on these boards. I only entered when there was abuse thrown towards others, and it is very wrong to stop epople posting anywhere on these boards if they have done nothign wrong. Why do you need a special place for your own thought? Can you not say then in the topics already there? And if not, why not?
Hello Jag,

-That is exactely what should not happen.
-Again Jag, I don't even know who said what where. You confirm the point that it comes from two ways: Conservatives should control themselves in the CC, and Liberals should refrain from going into the CC.

The l33t topic (is there one already) could serve as example. Fine with some, a pain to others to read it when it's used in all topics. Keep it in one topic and keep it nice. Don't write insults to other (outside) members because it's c00l to do in l33t and because it's your turf, and other members should not go there to tell them that l33t suX0rs, that they sp@m and are b@d.

When you ask someone to smoke outside the house because it's bad for your astma, you don't throw a bucket of water when they go outside to lit one. They understand your astma problem, you understand their nicotine requirements.

These Conservatives/Liberal rooms are a bit different of course. Idea is that you can share thoughts with equal minded. There are plenty of other topics where you can mix.

Kaiser of Arabia
07-16-2004, 00:36
1 quick question, if l33t can get its own thread, can jive?
-Capo

Big King Sanctaphrax
07-16-2004, 01:19
Quote[/b] (Caporegime1984 @ July 16 2004,00:36)]1 quick question, if l33t can get its own thread, can jive?
-Capo
Before I make a decision...what's jive? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif

Teutonic Knight
07-16-2004, 15:29
Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ July 15 2004,20:19)]
Quote[/b] (Caporegime1984 @ July 16 2004,00:36)]1 quick question, if l33t can get its own thread, can jive?
-Capo
Before I make a decision...what's jive? https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif
You've never seen "Airplane" I take it?

Gawain of Orkeny
07-16-2004, 15:50
Quote[/b] ]When conservatives of the board feel that a thread named after their ideology is a place to freely abuse the liberals on here, it is a very sad day on these boards

This is not the case. We dont approve of bashing any liberal posters in the CC. If you are speaking of Daves little joke get a sense of humor and that was only after a liberal posted there. As president of the club I will not stand for any intenional bashing there.

The_Emperor
07-16-2004, 16:27
Quite frankly I was opposed to this club idea because the idea is to widen the divisions in the community... Labelling people into being in one camp or the other.

This forum is visited by more groups than just Liberals or Conservatives, and while American politics may well be polarised between these groups, the rest of the world is not.

People are being called "Liberals" it seems just for disagreeing with what someone else has said. You know I agree with Gawain, Redleg and Dave on some matters, other times I disagree.

Does the fact that I disagree with them on some issues, mean I should be labelled as being part of the "Enemy political group"?

Teutonic Knight
07-16-2004, 17:00
Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ July 16 2004,11:27)]Quite frankly I was opposed to this club idea because the idea is to widen the divisions in the community... Labelling people into being in one camp or the other.

This forum is visited by more groups than just Liberals or Conservatives, and while American politics may well be polarised between these groups, the rest of the world is not.

People are being called "Liberals" it seems just for disagreeing with what someone else has said. You know I agree with Gawain, Redleg and Dave on some matters, other times I disagree.

Does the fact that I disagree with them on some issues, mean I should be labelled as being part of the "Enemy political group"?
no, it means you are a moderate/centrist.

*stamps label on Emp's forehead* https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

The_Emperor
07-16-2004, 17:07
Wow, I should start a club... errm on second thoughts perhaps not https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Kaiser of Arabia
07-16-2004, 19:16
Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ July 16 2004,09:29)]
Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ July 15 2004,20:19)]
Quote[/b] (Caporegime1984 @ July 16 2004,00:36)]1 quick question, if l33t can get its own thread, can jive?
-Capo
Before I make a decision...what's jive? https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif
You've never seen "Airplane" I take it?
Great movie. Love the part where the guy from Unsolved Mysteries pulls out some judo on the jahovas witnesses. Or the part with the inflatable pilot blow job https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

Oh, jive is the 1970's African American Sanford and Son type dialect like from the Jeffersons (the Sitcom, not the cartoon) its fun to speak.

Got me into a few scraps here and there though.
-Capo

Gawain of Orkeny
07-16-2004, 19:17
Quote[/b] ]Wow, I should start a club... errm on second thoughts perhaps not

Too late I started a moderate club at the same time as the Conservative club.

Big King Sanctaphrax
07-16-2004, 21:21
Quote[/b] (Caporegime1984 @ July 16 2004,19:16)]
Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ July 16 2004,09:29)]
Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ July 15 2004,20:19)]
Quote[/b] (Caporegime1984 @ July 16 2004,00:36)]1 quick question, if l33t can get its own thread, can jive?
-Capo
Before I make a decision...what's jive? https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif
You've never seen "Airplane" I take it?
Great movie. Love the part where the guy from Unsolved Mysteries pulls out some judo on the jahovas witnesses. Or the part with the inflatable pilot blow job https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

Oh, jive is the 1970's African American Sanford and Son type dialect like from the Jeffersons (the Sitcom, not the cartoon) its fun to speak.

Got me into a few scraps here and there though.
-Capo
Oh wow, stupid me. I have seen airplane, and I realise what you're talking about.

Do it, just no swearing.

Kaiser of Arabia
07-16-2004, 22:20
Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ July 16 2004,15:21)]
Quote[/b] (Caporegime1984 @ July 16 2004,19:16)]
Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ July 16 2004,09:29)]
Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ July 15 2004,20:19)]
Quote[/b] (Caporegime1984 @ July 16 2004,00:36)]1 quick question, if l33t can get its own thread, can jive?
-Capo
Before I make a decision...what's jive? https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif
You've never seen "Airplane" I take it?
Great movie. Love the part where the guy from Unsolved Mysteries pulls out some judo on the jahovas witnesses. Or the part with the inflatable pilot blow job https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

Oh, jive is the 1970's African American Sanford and Son type dialect like from the Jeffersons (the Sitcom, not the cartoon) its fun to speak.

Got me into a few scraps here and there though.
-Capo
Oh wow, stupid me. I have seen airplane, and I realise what you're talking about.

Do it, just no swearing.
Cool thanks.
-Capo