the Baburnama

[meravelha]

I'll confess my ignorance - I had not heard of it before.
But it turns out to be really interesting...

http://www.littlemag.com/2000/amitav.htm

[Shahed]

Hi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

This may sound a bit rude, but it's really NOT.

I am quite curious to know what you find interesting in this ? Is it the fact that Babur was Turkish ? or you find it intersting because it is Indian history ?

[meravelha]

really not what?
not interesting?

I thought it was interesting that Babur wrote his own epic bio, and that that it makes such a good story

[Mouzafphaerre]

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"Bâburnâme" is one of the masterpieces of oriental literature, and a primary source of history as well.

Babur was a direct descendant of Timur ("Tamerlane"), who belonged to the Mongolian tribe named Barlas, adopted Turkish language and lifestyle, having been isolated amongst Turk tribes for decades. (That makes calling them Mongolian or Turkish equivalently correct, I believe, or wrong for that matter.)

The empire Babur and his descendants established in India has been one of the three sovereignities that have ever managed to unify the -almost- entire country under a single realm. The other two were the ancient Maurya (IIRC) and the English dominion.
_

[Shahed]

Opps tried to avoid a misunderstanding there but I failed. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

I meant that my comment is NOT rude. I did not mean that the subject is not interesting. Sorry.

It is very interesting for me, as I am South Asian.
I can suggest consulting the following also:

-The Ain -i- Akbari
-The Akbarnama
-The Padshanama
-The Jahangirnama
-The ShahJehannama
-Tuzuk -i- Jahangiri
-Amal -i- Salih

[meravelha]

Oh sorry Sinan, my mistake http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-anxious.gif

I love the knightly romances.
Especially if they are anywhere near true.
Not so many of these heroes actually managed to found a kingdom though...
Of Babur's near contemporaries I can think of only Cortez who did so - and he didn't write about it himself.

I assume the Baburnama is written in Court Persian?
(A language I'd love to learn though it would take a lifetime)

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Not that I truly studied but Persian has a relatively simple grammar compared to many languages. If you have the chance, try it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
_

[Shahed]

The original language of the Baburnama was Turkish IIRC, I believe it was translated into Persian.

Sahrast e daryast, thehay palo paray bast.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Mouzafphaerre does some bookworming...


Aye, the original was in Turkish and translated into Persian in Ekber's reign (16th c.)

Now, if only I could get past the latin transcription of that phrase after سخراست درياست

_

[Shahed]

That's kind of tiny, I can't read that.
Can you spell it for me please, or give me a link please ?

Ohh never mind I think I got it.
It says Sahrast, Daryast correct ?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Yep. Might be erroneous though, didn't check the spelling. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
_

[meravelha]

It does?

I got tsayrd tsarxs

(vowels ommited and x = khaaf)

Does Persian use the Arabic script for different letters?

edit: wtf?
Please don't say it is written right-to-left but read left-to-right.....

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Persian uses Arabic script since 7th century AD. It includes... *counts*... 3 additional characters. Written and read right to left.

I intended to write what Sinan says.

Before the 7th century, Pehlewi script was used, which had been developed from Aramaic IIRC and it was often written "in Aramaic" but read in Persian.

*looks into bookmarks...*

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/index.htm

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
_

[meravelha]

*laughs* I was just going to post that I'd bookmarked
www.omniglot.com/writing/persian.htm


Now, about the ordering of the letters in the quote above,
reading right-to-left gives the letters in the order I stated - what gives?


edit: and www.easypersian.com - free online Persian lessons

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Quote[/b] ]That's kind of tiny, I can't read that.
Can you spell it for me please, or give me a link please ?

Ohh never mind I think I got it.
It says Sahrast, Daryast correct ?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
_

[Shahed]

I like that qoute, it does not have any particular relevance to the topic. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Here is what it means, in Persian: Deserts and rivers, all under our wings.

Great bookworming there Mouz

[Mouzafphaerre]

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I quoted you to reply to Meravelha. Sorry if offended. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
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[Shahed]

LOL I'm really having no luck in this thread to express myself clearly. Np at all man. I am not offended (why should I be ? ) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif , I wanted to translate it completely for you guys, but as I said it was a random qoute.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I have an illustrated Padshanama, it has beutiful paintings some of which I'd love to scan for you. They are very large though, about 30% larger than A4, so it will not be easy to fit in my scanner but I'll see what i can do.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Relieved, thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
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[meravelha]

Quote[/b] ]
I have an illustrated Padshanama


That would be amazing, Sinan. I'd love to see it :)

And Sahryast, Daryast. What is that from?
It sounds like the opening lines from something.

[Shahed]

The two words must have some other poetic significance but I got it from a documentary I watched on the Pakistan Air Force.

Now about the images.
I did find one showing the surrender of Kandahar.

http://www.museeguimet.fr/gb/images/pages/bitmaps/gui_5_00DE24468.jpg

This miniature depicts the surrender of Persian troops- seen on the right, on horseback or on foot-handing over the keys to the city to Kilij Khan whose haughty silhouette appears on the left, mounted on a white steed and wearing a black-plumed turban. The panoramic tableau- heightened by the plunging view over the city that creates an open-air atmosphere- is uncommon in Mughal painting. The painting is typical of the finest productions from the imperial workshop around 1640. The composition includes separate, symmetrical registers, skilfully rendered in a subdued vein. The upper background of this extremely well organized painting shows a citadel-probably Kandahar-treated in casually expert perspective. The surrender scene itself takes place in the foreground, and is inscribed in a virtual square, vertically subdivided into two parts.
Shah Jahan (1628-1658) was doubtless the most splendid of the Mughal emperors. The sovereign's Official Chronicle, or Padshanama brimmed with illustrations by the greatest imperial artists. Certain miniatures (including this one) were in all likelihood removed from the manuscript in the 18th century. This page, depicting the surrender of a city- probably Kandahar- is one of the most interesting paintings in the chronicle. It provides a pictorial account of a key military event which took place in 1637-1638 under Shah Jahan's reign. The great Afghan fortress of Kandahar, commanding a strategic position on the road to India and a hub of trade, was bitterly fought over by Safavid Persia and the Mughal Empire in 1595 and 1622. In 1638, Shah Jahan again forced Kandahar to surrender but the city was definitively re-annexed by the Persians in 1653. The manuscript of the Padshanama is today in the collections of the Royal Library at Windsor Castle.

source:
http://www.museeguimet.fr/gb/pages/page_id18007_u1l2.htm

I hav'nt forgotten I will try to get some better images as soon as I can. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif