How to pillage and burn?

[Ulair]

Hi folks,

Here's something that annoyed me so much last night I reloaded http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

The sad remnants of the Byzantine Empire had stuffed Khazar with six stacks of peasants, spears and other rubbish so I thought, for fun, I'd send in a single stack of archers and Armenian heavy cavalry to see what I could do. 'Course, the Byz retreat and I conquer Khazar. Fine, but I never actually wanted it so I follow the plan to raze everything in sight and withdraw.

And of course I get a loyallist rebellion - fair 'nuff, not unexpected. But it's two stacks of Pronoiai Allagion, Kataphraktoi and Varangian guards led by a 5* general. I mean, do me a favour Where'd they come from, hiding in the grass?

Now scorched earth is a valid tactic, but how can it ever work if withdrawing from a province you don't really want to own sparks a free multi-thousand florin army for your totally broke enemy? Am I missing a trick here, or are rebellions somewhat broken (as hinted in many other threads)?

Cheers,
Ulair

[Lord Ovaat]

You're not doing anything wrong; that's just the way it is. Totally unrealistic, but it does make the game more challenging. At least, if you razed the province, the pop-up troops won't have any upgrades. Just wait until you see what the Pope can accomplish in a stripped province. Makes your hair stand on end. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Shamus]

I love taking advantage of such a situation when the computer attacks a province, even if it isn’t on my border. If I have a number of florins in hand (and if the territory is worth my wile), I will buy out the new rebel “super army”, getting a new province with it’s own healthy standing army. I have found this can often be a great boon to my inter-sea trading economy.

[Bhruic]

Well, I find that if I move in, raze a province (which I rarely do), and move out, one of the computer players will move in and take the province, so it doesn't revolt. But yes, when a revolt happens, they tend to get some nasty troops.

Bh

[KyodaiSteeleye]

my impression is that the level of the revolt is proportional to the amount of your troops in the province. If you don't have enough troops to get loyalty of 100%, then move all of your troops straight out - the next turn's rebellion will prob's be v.small.

[Doug-Thompson]

Another important factor is, how many provinces does the opposing faction have left?

If you invade just a piece of a large empire, then abandon it, you shouldn't get much of a rebellion.

If you invade the faction's last province, or one of it's last provinces, and get a rebellion, the rebellion is likely to be more serious.

[son of spam]

I dunno about scorched earth, it seems, to me at least, that I always give the enemy more florins (in the form of high tech troops) then I take away. Thus, I've developed a form of "scorched earth" in which I simply invade a province with a medium-sized army and force the enemy into a castle. Then I just sit there, and when the castle is about to fall, I move out. The years that I sit in the province- he's not getting any money from it.

Also, I sometimes "bait" the AI, though it's tricky. The AI usually tries to relieve sieges by sending all of the troops from the adjoining territory into the sieged province. Then, I usually just attack a weakly defended territory adjacent to the territory I'm sieging, and siege the other territory instead. The AI then chases me across its empire, getting weaker every year because it doesn't get that much income http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Oaty]

Heres the big question were you really hurting enough that this was a necessary tactic to cripple the A.I even more. I never raze buildings unless if it looks like I have a good chance of losing that territory and the only 1 raze is the building that is currently being built because the A.I. automatically razes that building(same with the human player no way to control it just automatically happens). The other reason is the A.I. isnt designed to do this. Only if I'm struggling would I ever think of this tactic.

[solypsist]

Quote[/b] (Lord Ovaat @ April 30 2004,08:31)]You're not doing anything wrong; that's just the way it is. Totally unrealistic, but it does make the game more challenging.
well, it is very realistic. in war, there is no such thing as "unwanted territory," especially if that territory has the potential to earn income (and in this game, it always does).
the mindset of the medieval times was that land, any land, was desireable. so no one ever gave up land for any reason, streategic or otherwise, unless forced to. you move into enemy terriroty and take a province with a crusading force? it's yours. the law of the age dictates it.
i would love to see a massive loyalty/influence penalty for losing territory for multiple turns - it might keep players within the context of the game that land is life. no crusading army would ever just fight across 5 or 6 hostile provinces, abandoning each afterward to press forward; there would need to be supply lines, room to retreat, and the need to keep an enemy army from forming on the flank as soon as the crusaders left.

don't ever give up land once you have it, consider it a part of your kingdom forever

[gaijinalways]

Well, actually I use scorched earth with spies sometimes so that the resulting revolts are not so bad. With the new patch and newer versions you can't use this strategy so efffectively, but still the spies should stabalize the province so that the rebels are not so forthcoming after your departure. What I find fun is when another faction comes in (greedy AI) and they deal with revolt after revolt after revolt.

Pillage and burn is sometimes useful for supporting large mercenary armies. Also if the Ai gets more troops but loses income producing buildings, it can't do so mch as this adversely affects its cash flow.

[MalibuMan]

Quote[/b] (solypsist @ May 01 2004,01:05)]don't ever give up land once you have it, consider it a part of your kingdom forever
But sometimes it's your only real choice.

In my current game I'm playing the Danes, who start in a very weak economic position (unit support can rapidly overtake income). My usual tactic with them is to slowly build up trade and then expand, but this time I thought I'd try rushing the HRE. It's working, as vikings outclass all their troops, but the only way I can keep my economy afloat while I keep conquering is razing and ransoms.

[katank]

as for bribing loyalist armies, it's a very good idea as they are usually quite low loyalty and thus relatively cheap to bribe, particularly for such nice troops.

a full stack of katanks and varangs when you aren't even byz for 6-7k is pretty good.

sure you might be paying a bit of a premium but they are quality unique troops.

spy flood to keep the rebellions away.

if you abandon the province, take everyone out. if in VI, there are no longer such huge rebellions and they get 2-3 units. In original, you can look forward to 3+ stacks regardless.

[Ulair]

Well, good to know I'm not missing anything, but it's a shame it works the way it does.


Quote[/b] (solypsist @ May 01 2004,07:05)]

Quote[/b] (Lord Ovaat @ April 30 2004,08:31)]You're not doing anything wrong; that's just the way it is. Totally unrealistic, but it does make the game more challenging.
well, it is very realistic. in war, there is no such thing as "unwanted territory," especially if that territory has the potential to earn income (and in this game, it always does).
the mindset of the medieval times was that land, any land, was desireable. so no one ever gave up land for any reason, streategic or otherwise, unless forced to.

Unless they were raiding along the coast, say, or over the border (which was my intention here). Ride in, slaughter the defenders whom you've caught napping, steal all their stuff then set fire to the barns, poison the wells, slight the fortresses and out again - unless you've got a bit more time to plough the fields with salt, of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Carving your way through an enemy's homelands leaving a trail of destruction but no garrisons certainly wasn't unheard of: Edward III's chevauchee through France at the start of the 100 Year's War is a notable one.

MTW doesn't model this well, but son of spam's approach is the closest I've come, too: carve 'em up, chase 'em into a fortress, deprive them of income for a while then quit. I tried again with my archers/AHC vs Byz peasants/fanatics in Khazar, and this time they didn't run 5,500 peasants plus 40 Kats vs my 900 strong invaders: shooting up the general, charging again and again, routing them off the field again and again - excellent fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

I lost 200 men; they lost 2,500 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif Then I went home again

Cheers,
Ulair

[Ulair]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 01 2004,16:48)]as for bribing loyalist armies, it's a very good idea as they are usually quite low loyalty and thus relatively cheap to bribe, particularly for such nice troops.

I'll watch out for that - as you say, a stack of good stuff for a few thou could be worth the hassle. I'm just starting to learn about spies (just fomented my first rebellion in Sicily http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif - feeling very pleased - better go and buy it now, with my handy emissary).

[solypsist]

raiding a neighboring province is fine; i was referring more to the concept of crusades taking a new province every turn, and then abandoning it - and people complaining about it being under their ownership when an ally decided to move in later.

[Oaty]

Quote[/b] (solypsist @ May 01 2004,02:05)]
Quote[/b] (Lord Ovaat @ April 30 2004,08:31)]You're not doing anything wrong; that's just the way it is. Totally unrealistic, but it does make the game more challenging.
well, it is very realistic. in war, there is no such thing as "unwanted territory," especially if that territory has the potential to earn income (and in this game, it always does).
the mindset of the medieval times was that land, any land, was desireable. so no one ever gave up land for any reason, streategic or otherwise, unless forced to. you move into enemy terriroty and take a province with a crusading force? it's yours. the law of the age dictates it.
i would love to see a massive loyalty/influence penalty for losing territory for multiple turns - it might keep players within the context of the game that land is life. no crusading army would ever just fight across 5 or 6 hostile provinces, abandoning each afterward to press forward; there would need to be supply lines, room to retreat, and the need to keep an enemy army from forming on the flank as soon as the crusaders left.

don't ever give up land once you have it, consider it a part of your kingdom forever
Better yet Soly the world has heard of your attrocites and will have nothing to do with you and when you finally decide to expand major rebellions occur as soon as you march upon there territories.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (solypsist @ May 01 2004,01:05)]don't ever give up land once you have it, consider it a part of your kingdom forever
That's a good general rule, and maybe an ironclad one for Christian factions. However, I'd insist on an exception for Muslims. After all, you could never declare a Jihad if you never let go of a province.

True story: after a long period of stalemate, the French had left most of the English provinces ungarrisoned. I was playing Almohads. One force of about four Faris units, landed by sea, took control of Northumbria, Mercia, Wessex and Flanders at different points in the game. Each time, they deleted buildings and moved on, fixing my money shortage during the long stalemate.

Then I launched a wave of Jihads that marched through the other western French province on the way to Flanders. I took Brest, Normandy, Lorraine, Isle De France, Anjou, Provence and Burgandy before the Jihads finally took Flanders. All those troops were free upkeep while they were in Jihads.

The French were destroyed as a major power, falling into a civil war during the invasions. Bribery and more Jihads conquered all of England and much of what was left of Europe.

[meravelha]

GAH

The designers totally lost the plot with revolts.
Not only do rebels turn up with the best armies on the map, but with troops that cannot possibly be recruited there

GAH Time for for my first mod I think. Which is the most realistic?

[katank]

GAH how do you destroy uber revolts? change all revolt probabilities for good units to 0?

it woudl require lots of work.

at least this is a nice challenge.

particularly in medmod where the suddenly you are facing down several full stacks of knights templar http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[solypsist]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ May 03 2004,17:39)]However, I'd insist on an exception for Muslims. After all, you could never declare a Jihad if you never let go of a province.

Jihads are for land that is taken from you. There's no honor or glory in a jihad meant for a land that you willingly gave up.

If you never lose a defensive battle, then consider yourself the sort of ruler who doesn't need Jihads (but you should keep a good stack of them handy anyway) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (solypsist @ May 06 2004,10:49)]There's no honor or glory in a jihad meant for a land that you willingly gave up.
But there's lots of troops. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[katank]

don't agree with soly either.

keep at least 4 spare jihads lying around.

once a new sultan in on the throne, hurl them all at a province and take it.

then retreat and let the province rebel so you can do this again later.

this makes the sultan very good in the stats and boosts his influence to max which makes for very good heirs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 06 2004,12:40)]don't agree with soly either.

keep at least 4 spare jihads lying around.

once a new sultan in on the throne, hurl them all at a province and take it.

then retreat and let the province rebel so you can do this again later.

this makes the sultan very good in the stats and boosts his influence to max which makes for very good heirs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif
Well, to make soly happy, one, as a young sultan, could set his eye on a target province a few enemy provinces from your border http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Once your young sultan's army has marched through the closest enemy's provinces, it is highly likely the province will rebel (or sally from the castle) as soon as your armies leave. The pesky locals won't be deterred by the unit of peasants you could afford to leave benhind on garrison/seige duty http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Voila, havin'g your garrison run over by rebels gives you a glorious reason to declare a few jihads against the province http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 04 2004,21:08)]GAH how do you destroy uber revolts? change all revolt probabilities for good units to 0?

it woudl require lots of work.

at least this is a nice challenge.

particularly in medmod where the suddenly you are facing down several full stacks of knights templar http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Well, as of the VI expansion, the revolts are rather pathetic (including loyalist revolts): nothing like it used to be in the last version before the expansion.

at times i feel tempted to use the "old_rebels" switch

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ May 10 2004,03:12)]at times i feel tempted to use the "old_rebels" switch
I completely agree. The rebellions are lame indeed. It especially bugs me that I can conquer a province of an completely different faith and it usually just requires to leave 2-4 companies bahind for a couple of turns and within 3-5 years one can actually leave the province completely undefended.... and nothing happens.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ May 10 2004,03:11)]Once your young sultan's army has marched through the closest enemy's provinces, it is highly likely the province will rebel (or sally from the castle) as soon as your armies leave. The pesky locals won't be deterred by the unit of peasants you could afford to leave benhind on garrison/seige duty http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Voila, havin'g your garrison run over by rebels gives you a glorious reason to declare a few jihads against the province http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
One of the things I really like about Jihads is their ability to take just about any fortress.

Invade a province. Drive away the defenders, except for a garrison. Retreat the next turn. The enemy automatically pops out of garrison and you lose the province.

Declare massed Jihads on the province you retreated from. One of two things will happen.

1. You get lots of troops, which will drive away the enemy army and can besiege the fortress indefinitely. You pay no maintenance costs for them until the fortress falls.

2. You get lots of troops and lots of great siege equipment. If you have any kind of siege workshop anywhere in your kingdom, you'll get siege equipment. Even more, you'll get better siege equipment than you could have built yourself. Bye bye, fortress. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Finally, you can also hire mercenaries and put them into Jihads -- great for storming fortresses. Again, you pay no upkeep costs until the Jihad's over, and then you can simply disband the surviving mercs. It's one cheap way to take down a fort. I routinely build inn in the same provinces that have ribats.

[Mount Suribachi]

There's some very powergamery tactics in this thread.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flat.gif

And thats all I have to say on the subject.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] ]In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns. -- Sun Tzu.

[solypsist]

good quote.

bad translation.


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Perhaps you'll like this one better:


Quote[/b] ] "So long as victory can be attained, stupid haste is preferable to clever dilatoriness." -- Chang Yu.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[solypsist]

Well I'm currently playing a campaign, and sticking to what I said. I haven't given up squat, despite those times when it would be strategic to do so. It's getting tough near the end of the 14th century.

[Doug-Thompson]

Oh well.

An actor:
Quote[/b] ]I should think you'd want to fall back and regroup.
George C. Scott, portraying Gen. Patton.
Quote[/b] ]No. I don't like paying for the same real estate twice.

[katank]

well, it's different with jihads where you get another shot at awesome troops for cheap.

[Doug-Thompson]

The only time I ever get worthwhile numbers of Alan Mercenary Cavalry is when I send Jihads through Georgia and Khazar. I get hundreds of them.

[katank]

really? jihads through georgia and khazar for alan mercs?

cool, gotta play another turk game and try that then.

hmmm.

I usually just mod them to be buildable there with horse breeder's guild. seems fairly reasonable. then lots of them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

however, jihads to get hundreds of them sound more economical.

[Doug-Thompson]

I got about 300 or so once the Golden Horde invaded Georgia. I swamped them with a dozen Jihads at once from all over the empire. Control of the sea and multiple Jihad are too powerful.

I play on huge unit size, which might make a difference.

[katank]

yeah, that might.

hmmm, I should play on huge although that would make my graphics card blow up and my BGs would no longer be as strong.

would help against aragonese and danes who spawn heirs like rabbits though.

[solypsist]

300 jihads sounds like fun
except
once they convert back to armies, you have to start paying for their upkeep

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (solypsist @ May 14 2004,12:46)]300 jihads sounds like fun
except
once they convert back to armies, you have to start paying for their upkeep
Whoa. Obviously, I didn't word that clearly.

I received a total of 300 Alan Mercenary Cavalry -- they made up three full 80-man huge units when merged, plus a fourth unit in change -- when I sent a bunch of Jihads into Georgia.

I've never sent 300 Jihads. Sorry for the confusion.

===========

Massed Jihads usually aren't necessary to repeat. One round pumps up your ruler's piety, so subsequent Jihads are bigger. Alims also help pump up province zealotry.

[katank]

I only mass jihads once per sultan.

I think of it as a grand coronation ceremony that incidentally makes him rock

I also used massed jihads once against the Mongols when I got tired of 4 hour defenses.

I autocalced and won with the massed jihads

also, not so much upkeep necessary when most are killed.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 14 2004,18:20)]I only mass jihads once per sultan.

I think of it as a grand coronation ceremony that incidentally makes him rock
That's a good way to describe it.


Quote[/b] ]also, not so much upkeep necessary when most are killed.

Upkeep is not a problem. Delete units you don't want.

That's the beauty of Jihads. It's like having thousands of troops standing ready, but with no upkeep cost.

[katank]

that's why I don't see the perceived weakness of the muslim factions.

while their units may not be able to stand up in a slugfest against late game catholics, the better desert combat forces and unique power of jihads enable one to win through attrition.

the lands are also quite rich and enable winning through trade/farming.

[Crash]

When I think of "scorched earth" tactics, it's more of a defensive tactic, like the Soviet Union against the Nazi invasion.

My classic "scorched earth" defense is against the Golden Horde. If I hold the eastern provinces - Khazar, Georgia, Armenia, and Volga-Bulgaria, I will withdraw from those provinces the turn that the GH arrives. Before withdrawing I will destroy the border forts, build churches or mosques, and leave spies and priests, bishops or imams.

When the GH armies leave these provinces to attack westward, move in more spies and religious agents. This will cause the provinces to rise in revolt behind the GH hordes. You can then squeeze GH armies by hammering them from the west, using the rebel armies as the anvil. After wiping out the GH, bribe the rebel armies, and you will end up with the same provinces plus the additional rebel units.

This, of course works especially well with Jihads, but crusades can also be sent against the Mongol provinces.

Classic pillaging and burning is fine too, but don't stop for castle sieges. Only take castles that can be easily taken in one turn, then destroy everything and move on. Chasing a cowardly King across his empire will eventually cause a civil war or rebellion, even if you don't take and hold his provinces.

[katank]

well, I use a combination.

I will often chase enemies throughout their land and raze their buildings for cash.

I've rarely found it necessary to raze my own provinces though.

I do raze master horse, armourers, and churches occasionally in the GH appearing provinces but often I simply garrison the fortresses with gold gold joms (I modded them in) from Sweden and let them take on the siege cannon towers (let the upgrades be buildable before gunpowder isn't all that overpowered).

funny how the horde seem to die. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Ulair]

Pillage and burn as an offensive tactic can yield utterly awesome results. If you own the seas it becomes pretty easy to destroy any opponent in a matter of a few years.

Just the other night, the Spanish were massing on my borders, huge ex-crusader stacks with another crusade on the way, but... they have no boats. I have boats all round their coast, so I take a single stack and drop it on Castile. Because all their troops are on my borders (in Tunisia) they have nothing to defend their heartland with. I take Castile, razing the chapterhouse (pouf goes their crusade) and moving to Leon and Cordoba. Bang, bang, down they go and then it's civil war time for the Spanish. They went from the most powerful western power to rabble and ruin in three years, because I tore their heart out.

Didn't seem fair, somehow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif . In recompense, I invaded Tunisia and gave those huge stacks a good fight.

Moral #1: own the seas

Moral #2: if you don't own the seas, watch yer back

Cheers,
Ulair

[katank]

that's very effective although I've played as early Danes and sent my 4* prince with 2 full stacks of vikings and mercs rampaging through Europe.

I razed most of HRE and Italy and then down through the pope and finally into Sicily.

I almost managed to cut my way back before he was stopped in Swabia, finally overwhelmed by the attrition.

it's funny that I was fighting the civl war rebels instead of the HRE though as the AI HRE can't seem to stomach the loss of half their territory and repeated defeats. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif