Throw things at the new guy!

[HicRic]

Hello fellow Daimyo. I come here to declare war upon-uhh...I mean...request you impart some knowledge unto a poor and humble soul. *nervous cough* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I've often wondered something, and it's about the Dutch: they never turn up for me I once read that they come around 1560 or so, but I've played a game up to 1590 and I saw neither hide nor hair of them. Am I doing something wrong here, or am I very confused about the whole matter? (Likely http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) I'd love to have some muskets without the bother of converting religion and things.

What else was there...oh, yes:

Yari Ashigaru. Uhh, I use them to garrision provinces, and that's it. I once had a unit of them hit "wavering" morale when they were just watching a fight Does anyone know how to use them in battle in some way, or are they really only something to be used a bit at the start of the game and so forth? I can't say I use them in any other situation.

I love routing 240 men with a single Kensai. I was very amused that day. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

It seems I did not install the "throne room" when I installed the game. Is there any way for me to do this now, or will I have to uninstall it and then re-install it? (is it worth the bother?)

Okay, I think that concludes my rambling for now. I await any assistance you can give unto me with baited breath...now...if you'll excuse me...*pulls the map towards him and starts making plans to take over Japan-again*

[Sasaki Kojiro]

You need full install for throne room.

YA can be usefull as support troops...bolster your own men's morale while decreasing enemies. Also the ashigaru cannon fodder tactic for bridge provinces.

[HicRic]

Bridges What an excellent idea...I hadn't thought of that. Waste some enemy arrows and hopefully lure an enemy unit or two into my arrow range...I'll be sure to give that a go

Thanks for the throne room info, too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[insolent1]

The Dutch arrive around 1590ish(its around 50years after the Portugese) & later but you must own one of the provinces they visit. I'm not sure about Hizen but I know they land at Satsuma, Tosa, Bizen, Owari, Izu, Muashi & Mutsu.
The Throne room is cool & I always play with it on. I'm not sure if you need the full install for it but I know there is a check box in the otions area that allows you to put it on or not. I think with MI its turned off by default.
YA are good for the price & make excellent cannon fodder. But with upgrades & produced in Owari or Tosa they be very good. I use them to guard my muskets from cav & once they reach 5+ honour & some upgrades they don't waver.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I don't know about WE, but with MI you must have full install of ORIGINAL shogun.

[Oaty]

Not to sure on this but I am pretty sure the dutch visit only provinces with ports and work a circle around Japan until they hit every port and give it a go again

[HicRic]

Ahh, 1590 for the Dutch? That'd be why then Thanks for the help with things. I'm running STW:WE, I think next time I get the chance I'll install the throne room, it sounds interesting. :)

[dedmoroz]

Quote[/b] (HicRic @ April 30 2004,10:30)]Yari Ashigaru. Uhh, I use them to garrision provinces, and that's it. I once had a unit of them hit "wavering" morale when they were just watching a fight Does anyone know how to use them in battle in some way, or are they really only something to be used a bit at the start of the game and so forth? I can't say I use them in any other situation.
hi HicRic,

from my experience playing with YA, these are few tips for
using them:

* use them as a bait to make enemy units attack and chase them and thus leave well defended spots, like hills, forests etc, making it easier for u to attack and flank.

* Absorb arrows with them in loose formation (if u play unlimited ammo, this will not help though).

* use them in forest attacking downhill - charge them and they will kill some enemy units before they will be slaughtered.

* they have good speed - use them for chasing fleeing enemy.

* some nice tactic i use - i make 4-5 full armies of YA (16 units each) and then i move them at once through enemy provinces - in most cases AI will decide that it can't win the battle and u can pillage rich provinces for koku.

and most important, remember that they are cheap and routing them will not affect morale of your other samurai units, but only ashigaru.

hope this helps



http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Togakure]

The Dutch first arrive in 1561, pretty much like clockwork from what I've seen (in STW/MI anyway). However, you might not encounter them then, depending on what clan you are playing and where they happen to show up first. They and the Portuguese will only present themselves if they arrive in a province that has a port. Sometimes you can see a missed opportunity--a European ship icon off the coast of a province that doesn't have a port.

All European visitors early in the game arrive in the western half of Japan. Owari (Oda) is about as far East as I've seen them arrive between 154x and 1565. So, you are more likely to get a trade offer from the Portuguese or Dutch early on if you are playing the Imagawa, Shimazu, Takeda, or Mori (clans on the Western side of the map, assuming a Sengoku Jidai campaign).

[insolent1]

The Dutch arrive after 1590 its actually more like 1600 as was REAL history. The ships work there way along the bottom(south east) of the map normally taking 2-3 turns at each port(you don't even need a port), they always visit the exact same places as mentioned in my last post. After the ship leaves Mutsu it magically reappears at Hizen.

Edit I just checked in game & the dutch first turned up at 1582 at Musahi, i'm not sure if this is definite every game but i'm sure if its not that its very close to this date.

The way the ships work there way around is Satsuma, Hizen , Tosa, Owari, Izu, Musahi, Mutsu. Ports aren't nessesary. The way the ships work their way around they visit a province from every faction in the Sengoku Jidai period.

[Oaty]

Sorry Hicric I didnt realize we were all off topic here


Quote[/b] ] Throw things at the new guy

I shall take my remaining battlefield ninja and have them throw stars at you.

and as far as them kicking donkey well they just kicked yours

[Togakure]

HicRic ... welcome to the Org, m8. Hmm ... (*throws a half eaten onigiri at the new guy ...*)

Onigiri is a rice ball wrapped in nori (seaweed), which often has cooked fish or picked vegetables in its center. They are yummy imo, and are common lunch time munchies for Japanese folks.

***
Edit: response to insolent1 deleted. Enough words wasted, etc. Didn't catch myself quite in time ... but getting better.

[HicRic]

*recovers from hail of various thrown objects* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Well, I guess I've just been unlucky on the whole, as far as finding Dutch traders goes.

Oh, I've got another question (full of them, aren't I? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ): I installed the Throne Room...I guess it looks nice, but the only thing it seems to be good for is the numerous bits of advice the guy on the left dishes out after a mouse-poking, and being able to see which provinces are controlled by what clan on the map. Does anything else ever happen with the throne room? Alliances, for example, were still offered on the main map screen to me. I thought maybe it would happen in the throne room instead or something. Or is it because I installed the throne room halfway through a SP campaigne?

Hope I'm still mkaing sense. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Once you install the throne room you have to check the enable throne box somewhere in the options menu to get the emissaries in the throne room.

[insolent1]

Quote[/b] ]Edit: response to insolent1 deleted. Enough words wasted, etc. Didn't catch myself quite in time ... but getting better.

?

me thinks I missed something good http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[hoom]

Quote[/b] ] being able to see which provinces are controlled by what clan on the mapThis is the prime use of the throne room.
I think you were going to be able to kill emisaries by clicking the Geisha but it never got implemented/it was removed.

[Oaty]

Quote[/b] (arrrse @ May 06 2004,20:55)]
Quote[/b] ] being able to see which provinces are controlled by what clan on the mapThis is the prime use of the throne room.
I think you were going to be able to kill emisaries by clicking the Geisha but it never got implemented/it was removed.
I think the main reason they left this out is because the comp would constantly have there emisaries head chopped off

[HicRic]

But it would be so amazingly fun to give the Geisha a "nod" and to take out another one of those irritating Portugese salesmen. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I'm such a barabarian. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[solypsist]

It's not a bad idea to just wait for the Dutch.

[Kristaps]

What's the difference: Dutch or Portugese?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

With portugese you have to convert to christianity and don't get muskets until you have a cathedral. With dutch you don't have to convert and you get musks right away.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Shinano @ June 22 2004,14:40)]With portugese you have to convert to christianity and don't get muskets until you have a cathedral. With dutch you don't have to convert and you get musks right away.
aaa, that's a valuable piece of information actually :)

i'm new to stw, same as the thread author here.

[solypsist]

my advice is to wait for the Dutch, unless you're really trying to make for a challenging game (who isn't?) or want to be historically accurate - ie. Nobunaga converted to Christianity.

[EatYerGreens]

my advice is to wait for the Dutch, unless you're really trying to make for a challenging game (who isn't?) or want to be historically accurate - ie. Nobunaga converted to Christianity.


This is certainly something I'd like to try, purely to see how it pans out with things like rebellions in response to religious conversion, no longer being able to build Buddhist Temple for WMs for the rest of the game and so on.

One of the disbenefits of conversion is the sheer cost of all the required infrastructure. I usually have enough troubles with the koku balance as it is, just trying to match the other clans' troop numbers without having to save up for the six castles plus 6 churches, plus large castle plus fortress before you can build the aformentioned cathedral. Usually, by the time I can afford to make a start on the second castle+church, the Dutch have arrived anyway and I can cut to the chase if I want Muskets.

Incidentally, amongst the notes for the V1.11 patch it says that "the Cathedral income is now fixed in the harvest summary". Whether this meant that the OOTB version wasn't crediting you with the income or just wasn't displaying it correctly remains a mystery, I don't recall reaching that stage.

The only campaign I won as a Christian faction was as Shimazu. Lots of fun spamming enemy territory with priests...

Priests also make excellent Ninja bait. Leave them in friendly territory with one of your own Ninja or Shinobi alongside and the honour level of the latter racks up as they catch all the incoming attacks. Well, most of the time ~;)

In the case of the Oda clan, the most galling aspect is that the Gun Factory requires the trading post, "the largest of castles" and an armoury (or just iron-sand deposits??) in the province. Not sure if the Cathedral enters into it. Of course none of his armoury-capable provinces adjoin onto the sea, so he wouldn't be able to build one anywayy. I think only Aki, Hitachi and Sado fit the bill and if Oda can conquer that far without requiring muskets in huge quantities, he's probably not going to need them to finish the job. Something of a red herring in the gameplan, I think. You'd have to be really bogged down in order to go to the time and expense required to develop the gun factory and its prerequisites. Or just really keen on replaying things historically - and the AI probably isn't going to play ball in that respect. ~:rolleyes:

[EatYerGreens]

Nobody else has mentioned it, so I'll throw this in,

one of the less obvious side benefits of converting to Christianity is that you get an additional source of income, in the form of tithes (tithe being an archaic word for tenth, i.e. a 10% tax on everything, paid to the church), gathered from the Christinised population of the whole of Japan. As head of the church, you get to divert this straight into your war-chest ~:cool: In other words, if you succeed in converting a good percentage of the population in enemy-held provinces, you get to earn a certain amount of koku each year from lands you haven't yet captured.

There is a certain amount of 'snowball effect' involved in this. A bunch of 6 priests will achieve 100% conversion of a province in just a year or so but there is a certain amount of 'leakage' as the converted spread the word out into neighbouring lands, so when you move your priest gang along to the next place, you may find partial conversion there already.

Hence the comment on Buddhist Temple buildings about the ability to 'roll back' Christianity in a province and its neighbours. Don't waste your time on these, move on for now. When you finally get to invade these provinces, the Temple usually gets destroyed as part of castle degredation. If not, let the owning clan retake it and they will inadvertently degrade the castle one more level and ruin it themselves ~D

Anyway, begin by converting your main troop training provinces (if you need them to have no fear of Warrior Monks, say) then move them direct to enemy territory. The 'leakage' effect will cause it to steadily work its way back into the remainder of your home territories of its own accord and without taking up your priests' time. Maybe keep one at home to keep conversion % topped up and perhaps position one near a clan border, as Ninja-bait (see my previous post).

With one Shimazu victory, this proved a useful income booster to tide me over until I could afford ports and began to take over provinces worthy of land improvements etc, so it helped get the ball rolling. In the endgame, I was capturing provinces where the crop output had been fully boosted for me, so a lot of that expense was saved anyway.

BTW, I'm referring to STW 1.0 and V1.11 here. No idea how much this was changed in later versions.

[Maeda Toshiie]

my advice is to wait for the Dutch, unless you're really trying to make for a challenging game (who isn't?) or want to be historically accurate - ie. Nobunaga converted to Christianity.

Shinobis solve the problem of buddhist adherents.

"This is certainly something I'd like to try, purely to see how it pans out with things like rebellions in response to religious conversion, no longer being able to build Buddhist Temple for WMs for the rest of the game and so on."

Build your temples first, then convert. Just swamp with shinobis to prevent rebellions.

"one of the less obvious side benefits of converting to Christianity is that you get an additional source of income, in the form of tithes (tithe being an archaic word for tenth, i.e. a 10% tax on everything, paid to the church), gathered from the Christinised population of the whole of Japan. As head of the church, you get to divert this straight into your war-chest In other words, if you succeed in converting a good percentage of the population in enemy-held provinces, you get to earn a certain amount of koku each year from lands you haven't yet captured."

Only from your own churches (IIRC), 200 per church.

'With one Shimazu victory, this proved a useful income booster to tide me over until I could afford ports and began to take over provinces worthy of land improvements etc, so it helped get the ball rolling. In the endgame, I was capturing provinces where the crop output had been fully boosted for me, so a lot of that expense was saved anyway."

Ports appear for me before any church does.

[HicRic]

You only get income from churches once you have built a Cathedral. I'm also quite sure you get 200 koku per church per year from every church in Japan, whether it is yours or not.

[candidgamera]

Dutch Arrival:
The 1561 date seems to be what I remember from 1.12 original Shogun.
1590's date - change from original with WE?

Playing WE though it seems like if you go Portuguese you don't get dutch - only get to trade with one or the other?

Of course if Dutch come in 1590s with the faster tech up then they'd seem to be irrelevant and explanation why haven't seen them - I play slow and with Mori on hard was done in 1578 - taking everything. Going even faster with Hojo.

Original remember being able to trade with both, just couldn't have two different trading posts in same province.

[HicRic]

I've played Shogun loads and have never seen the Dutch, still. ~:joker:

[EatYerGreens]

Shinobis solve the problem of buddhist adherents.


They certainly solve a lot of problems, so I get them anyway. Yet more expense to be taken account of though...

Given that I've only gone the whole hog with this route once, I have to say that, for every church I built (and the castles required to do so), I kept wondering what else I could have got for the money. More often than not, I will just build the Portuguese TP then later on build a Dutch one at the next port, skipping the Church building business completely.

I can't properly recall if the Buddhist Temple disappears from the available buildings page or not, following conversion. I'll look out for that next time.



Build your temples first, then convert. Just swamp with shinobis to prevent rebellions.


Yes, that will work but you'll have problems converting your population - if that's one of your goals - with a BT on your own territory! At least the game doesn't actually prevent you from being an ambivalent-faith Daimyo.

In any case, I seldom can afford more than the one castle + Large Castle + Tranq Garden + Buddhist Temple combination (3500 koku) by the time the Portuguese arrive anyway. I spend a lot of the early phase of the game managing with only 3000-odd koku after each harvest and at least half of that gets committed to catching up troops numbers with the opposition. They still outbuild me but sometimes I manage to out-slaughter them. ~D

The first port is always a real stretch, finance wise. By that I mean it's a bit of a gamble taking the reserve balance down to a few hundred, in case I get attacked and need to remobilise rapidly for the inevitable follow-up attack.



Only from your own churches (IIRC), 200 per church.


Thanks for the correction. I think I realized that I'd recalled this wrongly soon after posting it but, by the time I'd come back, it had already got responses. :tomato:




Ports appear for me before any church does.


With the finance situation, for me it's sometimes a case of "what can I afford?" rather than "what do I want to build?". Still, you're right, if you've made the deal for the guns but you have no port, you have to go for the port first and it'll be 4 1/2 yrs before you get the goods. No time to waste.

One last point: The game manual points out that you can use priests to make alliances with other Christian Daimyo. This seems quaint, reading it again now since I don't think I can recall more than one occasion where one of the AI clans went for it. Takeda, as it happens. It came in very handy for "training up" my Ninjas, which was what gave me the idea of using them to draw in enemy Ninjas to train up the counterspies I protected them with.

In terms of emissary duties for them to perform, this is largely redundant by the time priests become available because the alliances are done and dusted inside the first few years and don't change much for the rest of the game, apart from breaking down as wars break out, with occasional ceasefires going on.