Winning in VI

[Axeknight]

I'm playing my first serious VI campaign (as the Irish). I can win battles, but not without losing half my army.

The battles go like this: Line up armoured spearmen in tight formation (shield wall), skirmish with Kerns, Bonns and Dartmen, till they're out of darts/spears/javelins, then let the enemy shield wall attack mine. The two lines merge into one, and I send Gallowglasses or cav (or the skirmishers) round the back of the enemy. Their line crumbles, they rout, we win. In a 1000 men v 1000 men battle, I kill about 700-800, but lose 500 or so men. It's slowly crippling me.

My question is: in an even battle, how can I win without losing half my army?

[Coldstream]

Charge first.

[nightcrawlerblue]

That's why it's called an even battle In games the good guys don't always win.

[bighairyman]

Don't just stand there and take the darts and arrows, charge,and flank them. you can still pepper them with darts while you're fighting. also, ALWAYS FLANK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[katar]

stay mobile and use hit and run tactics on the enemy, take advantage of height and trees whenever possible.

standing in a static line is just inviting disaster, charge, pin and flank the enemy, then wipe him off the face of the earth

sorry, got a bit carried away there at the end. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

try to co-ordinate your attack as well, hitting them one unit at a time has less impact that attacking from all directions at once.

also try luring enemy units away from the main enemy force, isolate it and destroy it, repeat as necessary.

[MalibuMan]

With jav-like weapons you can throw into combat if you do it e.g. from behind i.e. when it's a clean combat and your guys are throwing towards the enemy. So don't have a softening up phase - just charge and then flank and throw with missiles. And remember Bonns are excellent up close as well.

[katank]

exactly, bonnachts can be thought of as melee units that can take out half a unit for free before they engage.

they are actually quite capable of mowing odwn half the unit if you manually throw and at point blank range.

throw and charge.

no HAs in VI which means not as much tactical maneuvering and luring. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[octavian]

perhaps you could post a replay so that a few more experienced players could have a look? they might be able to give you a few additional pointers.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif Octavian

[solypsist]

not losing half your army is usually where strategy comes in.
take the high ground, work on flanking maneuvers, etc.
there are several guides here at the Org, as well as friendly users, who can be of service.

[Bhruic]

Katar mentioned my favourite tactic. Unless the enemy is extremely missile heavy (in which case, charge), my attack of choice is to use cavalry to "lure" the enemy towards my army. Usually I can get one or two units to follow the cav, at which point I hit it with infantry. I can easily sandwich it from all sides, resulting in a quick kill.

Bh

[Oleander Ardens]

Playing with Irish is pretty much about learning to use Javelins/Darts/Heavy Spears. It takes time but pays off.


One note about the Irish: Try to fight in the worst possible weather. The don't have archers or so heavily armored troops like most other factions so they get little penalty in bad conditions.

I personally simply love to fight with them in a hefty Snowstorm where the enemy tires so much quicker....

Use Trees as cover against archers and enemy cavalry, as you have a supreme swordsman as the Gallows which can take on most enemys there.

Use the speed and the sheer masses of cheap units to your advantage by skirmishing with your enemy as long and as much as you can against all enemys strong in infantry.
Destroy them with your missiles....

Don't fear Husacerls. They are the best targets for your Kerns. An unit of Kerns can take easily take out a third of them when throwing all Javs, and costs so much less.

Spearmen are fooder for your Gallowglasses or Bonnachts, Cavalry is dangerous but protected javs can handle them to very well.

Units with little armor are your targets for the Dartmen;

Enemy archers are a pain, but that's why you should attack under the right circumstances http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[MalibuMan]

Enemy archers are what the irish cav is for. It's not good for much else Failing that, a good tactic if any cover is available is to use the fact that kerns are fast. You can sometimes sneak up on archer units from the flanks if you've got a convenient wood, and get in jav range with very few casualties from archery. Then you're faster than them so you can keep in range whilst keeping them running away from you, not firing.

[Mablung]

In the middle of your shield wall have to units of Gallows (if facing other spears). This should work ok as they have the same morale as armoured spears but should make short work and break them in the middle. This allows the 2 units to split either way and absolutely shred the enemy shield wall. Against Huscarles use horsemen to lure them away and tire them out, this in conjunction with fast javelins should be able to take them - or possibly a fresh gallow charge with horse flank. Don't forget Gallows have AP so the will chew armoured spears. You have to rely on flankers - either fast or high charge, preferably both. Set up a few inns and higher archers, this may lessen casualties. I haven't actually tested my own advice (I prefer the original campaigns) but it should work. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[MalibuMan]

Yes flanking (and coming from the rear if possible) is the key to dealing with Huscarles. Get several units on one. Irish actually have it a bit easier than some factions because although gallows aren't as good as huscarles they're in the same league, ish.

Oh yeah, shoot beserkers from afar

[Houston]

I am playing my first serious VI game with the Irish as well. I also use my Cav to lure off a few units. The rest of the enemy force then attacks me (or I attack them) with a few units less, making it easier for me to win the flanks. I can usually time things so my skirmishing cav arrive to attack the rear of the main line causing a rout before their lagging units can catch up.

I hated those Bonns at first, but now that I have more experience with them they are my favorite unit. They are quite effective killers when you tech them up.

My problem now is the Vikings are my only rivals left. I managed to bribe one of their home provinces from them which resulted in a massive 20 year war with several battles every year. This climaxed in an Irish civil war that I didn't survive. I had a great time even though I lost, so I am going back 20 years to try some new tactics.

[Oleander Ardens]

Ah I forgot: When playing the Irish armor is far more important than weapon, especially with Dartmen and Kerns.

It allows you build up veteran Kerns and Dartmen with high valor. As valor helps missiles with low accuracy far more than the ones with high accuracy both jav and dart profit from it far more than archers.

But most important it messes the A.I up so that he often doesn't attack you. In this case the Javs can be placed with minimal risk and great accuracy.

[Doug-Thompson]

I'm not much of a Viking player, but how many prisoners are you taking? It sounds like you're getting a lot of kills but the routers are getting away.

There's some things that could fix that.

[Axeknight]

I get quite a few prisoners, as my flanking force chews them up as they try to escape http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[katank]

massed kerns are the key to irish victories against huscarles.

manually targetting the javs for right timed throw can easily take out 10 huscarles in a volley. this basically pays for your unit of kerns 3-4 units of kerns will decimate a huscarle unit in no time and you gallows can deliver the coup de grace.

[Oleander Ardens]

True:

From the HA-thread


Yes, changing the direction of the facing can help if you see that the enemy charges a unit nearby.

I too switch the jav to "hold position" and turn "engage at will of". Javelins are black gold and must get used with care. To achieve the best you have to get full control over the unit.

Sometimes very stupid things happen when you forget to disable fire at will. I did once loose a heir of mine thanks to friendly fire from Kerns

BTW Yesterday I had I great day against the Saxons, playing with the Irish. Outnumbered against a vast Saxon army with six full units of Hus plus some smaller ones, 8+ armored spearmen, many many Fryds and Roundshield, Archers...but no cav The odds: 4:1

The Saxons waited on a ideal position on a giant Hill; Snowstorms and thick fog created a great atmosphere and the ideal cover for my high-valor silver Kerns.

I let first spend the enemy Archers spend their arrows on a cheap spearunit, than it was the turn of the Kerns and Dartmen (5+3). Keeping my main Army with the Gallows (4) and Kerns away I did only micro two/three Kerns at once.

After spending all my missiles almost all Hus were reduced to a third of their former strengh, some Armored Spear heavily hit. The enemy general lay dead on the battlefield. Than my fresher men charged eliminating first the isolated once, than the rest of the enemy. I was a great slaughter "