How and when to use Naginata

If one takes a look at the stats of the Naginata one would notice it has a defense of 8. Now that's the highest in the game! It also has a very high armour value of 6. However it has a melee of -1 and its charging speed is of only 8. The morale is of 4...not too bad altough not much compared to a nodachi/monk. Hence I would say that Naginata are the defensive units par excellence. They're heavily armour and they would kill very slowly but die very slowly - excellent for holding tactics. (Is my analysis correct first of all?)

My question is, how to exploit their abilities to the max without being too much disadvantaged by their terrible melee value?

How much they must be upgraded (honour/upgrades) for them to be effective at 7-10k?

They should be in hold position apart from hold formation?

How they should be used on a fast game on a flat map??

Thanks. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

The naginata are rarely used online but I'm sure they have their good points...altough I don't think I will ever use them coz my army is full of cavs/nods, not the best place for the slowest unit in the game. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Tera.

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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif

[This message has been edited by Terazawa Tokugawa (edited 05-17-2002).]

[Dionysus9]

I think your conclusions are correct.

I rarely use naginata--I prefer mobility--and they are generally too slow for me. Another problem with them, as you have noted is that, alone, they are not a "winning" unit. What I mean is, given long enough, the naginata almost always lose a one-on-one fight. What they are, as you note, is a "stalling" unit. They can tie up one or maybe more enemy units while you flank, or concentrate elsewhere.

I've experimented w/ them a little bit, and I've found that an H4 Naginata (10k) or H3 Naginata (7-8K) will usually stand up for long enough that it's "stalling" effect can be exploited. SuperAshi probably require a H5 Nagi, unless you can work REALLY quickly to get Monks/Dachi behind them. At H5, Naginata are too expensive for me--another reason I rarely use them.

One thing that they are great for is being a rear guard--and you may be able to incorporate them into a "mobile" army for this purpose; Sometimes I find myself in a BAD BAD place and I need to fall back or withdraw. Of course, this is dangerous as you must turn your back to the enemy. It helps if you can throw a couple of units at the enemy as a sacrifice. He will normally stop and fight them, giving the bulk of your forces a chance to escape from certain death. It works like this:

Naginata are slow, so they naturally fall to the back of your withdrawing troops. At some point, while the enemy is just out of "morale" range (1.8 tiles, see morale threads), you should stop and spin your nagi's to face the enemy. This will confer a "support" bonus to your withdrawing troops as well as slow down the enemy on your heels. Sometimes these nagi will hold on for a long time, giving you ample opportunity to regroup, rest, or obtain an advantageous position.

As for your question re: Hold Form / Hold Position--

Hold formation keeps the men in the unit equally spaced from eachother. Hold position keeps the men in the location you tolkd them to stand, until they route or are ordered differently. Hold position means that they will not chase a fleeing enemy, and they will not engage if an enemy is standing directly in front of them. I usually use hold form and hold position together, for this reason:

I've noticed that sometimes in hold formation, the troops are trying to do too much at once. They are trying to fight, move around, and order themselves all at the same time. If they are in hold/hold, they only try to fight since they are basically stuck in the same place. Some experiments in Custom Battle show that units in hold/hold defend slightly better than units in hold formation only. From watching the fighting, it looks like units in hold form only will sometimes advance or fall back (as a unit) based on the position of the enemy they are fighting. This movement means that for that animation frame they are not attacking, and may even have their back to the enemy. BAD BAD. Units in hold/hold do not move at all (except to close ranks when someone dies). Therefore, I think naginata, when used defensively (almost always) should be in hold/hold, because who are they going to chase down anyway?

Movement is a liability to naginata.

So, how should they be used on a fast flat map? Of course the answer depends on the situation, but generally naginata should be used as a "stalling" unit. Park them in front of an enemy charge, hold/hold, while your other units flank the enemy. If done quickly enough the poor melee value of the naginata is not an issue.

Another trick to using naginata is to string them out in a 2 or 3 unit deep line. If you are lucky the nagi will be able to stall 2 enemy units at a time, or if the enemy only attacks with 1 unit they will take a VERY slow rate of casualties (only 1/2 to 1/3 of your nagi are even at risk on any given animation fram).

Second, I've seen heavily armored naginata defend ranged units effectively by STANDING IN FRONT of the ranged units. They are so heavily armored that bullets and arrows tend to bounce right off. In fact, if the enemy is not careful his archers will empty their quivers just trying to get a few kills. Meanwhile the you are pounding on his ranged units. The enemy shoul ignore your naginata, and concentrate on taking out the ranged units from a distance...firing over nagi's heads. Using nagi to defend ranged troops can work in place of spears in guarding against cav charges, but I haven't done any experiments with the number of friendly-fire kills or the fact that they are obscuring friendly lines of fire. Not to mention that it tends to piss people off and seems a little unrealistic to me -- I dont use this tactic, but have seen it used effectively.

Finally, I've seen Naginata lead effective charges, albeit slowly (again I dont use this technique as they are too slow for my army). The idea is for the naginata to draw the fire from the enemy ranged units while the bulk of your army follows behind them. Their excellent armor helps them take less casualties than other units (monks, say), and thus they are able to advance w/out as much risk of routing--with your army behind them. This type of "charge" is best made at walking speed until you get really close. Might beef up their armor and honor a bit if this is what you are planning. With some luck you can get the attacker to hit the nagi's with H2H troops before they get blown away at close range (hit Halt/hold/hold and use as stalling units).

Finally, finally, you mention that they are rarely used in multi-battles. The reason is that there is a LOT of movement in a multi-game...if you kill your enemy, you go to help your ally, if you kill his enemy, you go to help the next ally, etc. In a recent game, I attacked too early, thinking AMP was right behind me....I didnt realize his army was heavy on Nagi...by the time they arrived my army was routing and he was faced with multiple enemies (not to mention my route penalties). Needless to say we were wiped out-- all my fault.

Again, thats why I prefer mobility.

BUT if you are one of those folks who is scared to death of Super Ashi, get a couple H5/H6 Naginata and park them in Hold/Hold in front of a Super Ashi charge. Flank quikly w/monks/dachi and waatch those ashi run. Expensive, but it works.

[pdoan8]

Here is one of my tactic of using nagitana online against people who likes gun alot.

I use 2 to 3 units. Set up in 2 row of 30 men. Loose formation. Hold formation. Walk them back to back in echelon into the enemy. Just as they about to make contact with the enemy, change to close formation. What I hope for is to hold the front line keeping a few enemy's range units or a few enemy's H2H units busy so my other units can work their way to the flank.

Haven't bring me any victory yet, but I can last much longer now.

[Wishazu]

definately dont pick naginata on a flat map with lots of open spaces because u dont want them to move too much(open maps favour fast moving armies) plus there isnt really any advantageous ground for them to hold(which is what they are designed for).

as stated by u guys earlier naginata are the best stalling troops in the game and their practically immune to missile fire. i used them to great effect in the mikata ga hara battle on the tokugawa ieyasu historical campaign. 2 units of naginata tied up about 5 or 6 units of takeda cav whilst my daimyo and the other spearmen regrouped with the rest of the army on the other side of the map, allthough the naginata`s were completely wiped out, the enemy cav was exhausted and quite badly mauled.

if anyone wants to use nagi as they were meant to then ur gonna need to play games with at most 4 players and at least 20k each

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Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your toops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical......Sun Tzu the Art of War

[theforce]

Naginata!
I haven't used them for a long time now. Well they are good when you are defending 1v1 and if you deploy in woods naginata can hold many units. I have attacked recently someone in totomi and he had 4 naginata units of good honour and l attacked with yari and got wm flanking now before they die it took me 3 minutes to just kill them(flanking and everything) and they routed some of my ys and damaged my monks. I use them when attacking nagashima since many battles are faught in the forest. Also naginata tire the enemy units a lot since they might fight a long time before routing. I have also seen if naginata are properly supported they rarely rout.
Just use the hold formation and hold position and dionysus said.
About putting nag in front of the charge... well guns work nice against them and if the naginata are not supported they shall run. About making monks to attack first with monks, nd following. Well since they are so slow they shall give the defender more time to shoot at monks that follow behind.

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I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!

[Wavesword]

When playing in SP as Mongols the closest I came to a proper defeat was when I routed an army and 3 Nags came on as reinforcements at top of a hill. It's Ok, they'll rout aannnyy second, aannny second (better order some of those unengaged units in), aaaaaannnnnnnyyyyyyy second (where's the frigging general?), aaaaahhhhhh my beautiful army... They routed in the end but at grievous cost. I suppose in MP their main value with limited mobility is a psychological one- a redzone on one side and 2 Nags on the other will secure your flank as your army rotates.

[Kocmoc]

i personal love naginata, but this unit is vs my play-style http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

in good games (1v1) i need 1 hour to come to the end, but i always love to be very offensiv and mobile...


anyway in unit vs unit naginata is a pretty good unit, but in a little chaos and some doubles this unit is weak, and run easy...

yes, they can hold a lot and yes, u can win with this unit, but if u look at the stats this unit is to expensiv to come close to a h7 ys...

and upgrades are to expensiv...

koc

[Jemasze Toda]

Dear Koc

From the statistical point of view you may be correct about the Naginata and its costs in comparison to the H7 YariSam or other units, but is this game mainly about statistics?
Its about having fun!
I heard many people argueing about the dominance of Über-Ashis and gun/spear-armies.
Yes, the gun-spear-army may be the most effective one and yes! the Über-ashi is a powerful unit. This game limits our imagination due to the programming aspect, the set "technical" frames, there is no way denying that.
But as i see the things the by far greater limitation takes place within our brains!
The gun/spear-army is statistically considered the best, let's all use it! You can't play otherwise or you loose all the time! Not true!
Its fun to demonstrate that you can win with other arrangements as well! It gives me big laugh when i see my Iron Guard approaching the enemy line on a slow pace but with an immense psychological bonus!
Take this psychological side of the game into your analysis too, Koc! Its NOT two robots fighting each other, its two humans!!If you want to know the truth, thats why i play Shogun online, certainly NOT because of technical frame-sets given by the programmers. The programm gives only live to a game between humans, no more but admittely also no less!
Can you imagine why humans STILL beat even the best chess-programmes more than they loose? Human imagination? And remember, that chess is a mathematically limited game, ideal for a computer to demonstrate his undoubtely impressive skills! One day the chess-programmes will win against the humans easily i guess, but i take pride in the fact ( http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif ), that the human mind defended itself soo well and soo long on a battleground litterally MADE for computer-power. And another point: Would you consider a game against a CPU, may it be the very best up-to-date technical wonder more interesting than a game against a human opponent with his personality input? Don't forget the psychology of the game! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

And one personal comment at the end, Koc. I saw too often that certain excellent players simply set their personal preference in gameplay as a kind of morale MUST for all players...using Naginata or all-cav ( like your Khan does also so well) or any other seemingly unorthodox technique is simply a small statement of independence...hehe

yours Jemasze

[Krasturak]

Gah!

Krast applies Nag Inff troops in three ways, although not often.

1) Standing on the crucial ground.

If there's a point in the terrain that is so important to winning the game, there's no better way to hold it: put a Nag on it.

Think castle gates, but it can also apply to others maps with hilly terrain.

2) Protecting the line.

Use two or three Nag in a line to hold your center. The enemy will almost certainly go around, giving you greater control of his movements.

3) Attacking.

Using a group of Nag on the attack can have interesting effects. Unless you blow it by having them rout, the Nag can do wonders on the attack.

Of course, you have to combine them with other unit types, and their slow movement rate must set the pace of the attack.

But it can be a decisive method.

[Jemasze Toda]

Behold! Its Krast!
GAH! and i bow to you, you great warrior!
You demonstrated JerichoPrime and me once in that legendary battle of Yamashiro in the midst of a cold, snowy winter of what unbelievable deeds the Naginatas are capable! They holded the line against our major downhill attack almost on their own, until you decided the battle with your Heavy Cav, coming uphill from the flank, just avoiding contact by metres (translated into reality) with a desperately pursuing YariSam-unit. Great victory, Krast!

and excellent analysis, Krast!
Behold! A true warrior!

yours Jeamsze

[Krasturak]

Gah! Jemasze! Gah!

Yes, that was possibly Krast's greatest victory, and Krast owes it to the Naginata troops.

Good work from Naginata can break the enemy's main effort, giving you the initiative to decide the course of the battle.

Gah!

[Kocmoc]

hmmmm, jemasze...

somehow u got me a bit wrong....
i didnt talked about the best setup nether about wich units u should u use to have a better army...

no i just talked about naginata and how good this unit is...

i personal play often without guns or just with 1 or 2.... i dont use ashis...

i use ys, yes nd... cav...i play so often with a max3 army....

and i cant understand this shit about "überashis" yes, some units are a bit better, and thatswhy u lose games?

LOL, thats not true some units are better as other but thats not the reason if u lose or win....

i give a shit of wich units my opponent takes, it isnt less fun if he has more guns or more ashis....

just play other maps as iron board and u can always win...

koc

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Grey Wolves (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl/)

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa,

SuperYA isn't a bit better.

H7W2A2 YA 790 Koku

8 melee 8 defense 49.3 koku/combatpoint
+8 vs cavalry 32.9 koku/combatpoint

10 morale 79 koku/morale

2 armor 395 koku/armor

H3 WM 770 koku

8 melee 5 defense 59.2 koku/combatpoint -> worse
+0 vs cavalry 59.2 koku/combatpoint -> worse (which would be good as YA is supposed to be a cheap anti cavalry unit).

14 morale 55 koku/morale -> better, but 4 points won't help the WM much.

1 armor 770 koku/armor -> worse

YA have only one weakness -and that's a strong point too- ashigaru status.

I won't deny that individual skill doesn't play a role, but there's a huge statistical fluctuation in every combat. Pit two units against each other under identical conditions and outcomes vary from big win, equal to big lose -> are you sure you beated the guy or did the dices decide that you should win?

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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.net

And some say Ashis are not unbalanced http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif

[BomilkarDate]

Well the ashi is unbalanced, but that is not the point. I already won games with 12 cav against a gun spear army with 8 superashis.
The point is that this topic is about the use of Naginata infantry I think. I really like this unit, but as I never learned to handle it to its best I seldom use it and thats why I really want to learn to use them better.

Naginata (in my eyes) have just one really strong point, their sllloooooooowww dying rate. My tries with armys that had 4 Nags as main force always failed (if they failed) with my Nags running away because of their not too great morale. If my attempts succeeded it was my Nags standing strong in the center, the enemy running with his head against a heavily armoured wall.

What I found until now is that you always have to keep their flanks and their rear save. On ironing bored this can be a really difficult task, but if used on "hilly" maps Nags can really be strong. Well I think the best I can do is go and try to find out more about this guys, so I am off to play and learn.

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Strength and honour

[Kocmoc]

lol,


i won games vs 3 other players, and?
this means nothing!!!

i think http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif it always depends vs whom u play.

we talk about weak and strong units now we moved to the old thing...about ashis and sams, but the topic started about naginatas...

i think if we go back to 7k games or 6k, some units will be back in bussines... like the monk and the naginata too...but with high koku games it cant.

naginata is a nice unit, and if some guys wouldnt play just iron board it could be possible to use this unit...

also a possible solution would be to go to a max of 2....or create setups wich the players have to use....

koc

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Grey Wolves (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl/)

[AggonyShim2]

well tera http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif since you started it... over a few weeks, as most of you know... i have learned to use these walking tanks... BUT i only use them in defending and sometimes i used them in attacking a fun game against a friend... in defending i put them behind my musket line in the center... if your center line can hold then you are in good shape... secondly i put them in ATTACK AT WILL... i have learned that putting them in hold formation does make them lose men slower... but it is HORRIBLE for killing your enemy... and if the fight continues on and your nags cant get any help while they are in hold formation... they will eventually route because of having to fight so long... also i never take a nag to battle unless i have 4 honour on it... nags will fight as long as their friends fight... if their honour isn't high then their friends will make the nags route when the friends run... this is one of the most effective units in the game in my opinion... and anyone that has allied me in a defending battle has watched the utter horror that they plague on our enemies... also... when i defend i take a nag gen... plus one armor (its like a walking brick wall) they are almost IMPOSSIBLE to kill unless attacked from all sides... if you are attacking me expect to see atleast 2 maybe 3 nags holding my center with fast movers on myr flanks...

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Whether a man is in upper or lower ranks, if he has put his life on the line atleast once, there is no cause for shame.

AggonyShim2
http://www.kaneyashi.com
Fear the pain =-)

[Tankdogg123]

shim if we play u we would expect to win :-)

[theforce]

komoc winning against 2 or 3 players can be a great deed but l have won these games and l know you are much a greater general than l am. Well most of the times since some times l am very lucky http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
For exaomle if someone attacks you and u win him and the other attacks oyu from the same direction of the fleeing men his men will also flee without much of a problem.
But is a lot of fun to make fun of people who loose in such games http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Anyway the info here are very nice. I used naginata in not a very good way by now but the info here is nice. I might start using them again sometimes. Also blocking troops like ashis and monks and nd and HC(all shock troops seem to be weak against guns) can give time to your guns to cause more damage.
I can understand naginata since many times flee so easily and other times can be in a very bad situation and hold their ground.
I think naginata should be beefed up a bit like being able to kill HC and NC much easier since there is not way someone with a sword to reach someone on a wall of naginatas. YC shouldn't suffer from this.
This will make naginata more usable. The bad thing about naginata is their speed. Nowdays most battles are shoot at the enemy send cav to take out guns. Well naginata must be supported by other spear units, too. Thing l don't like is that they lost their blocking power against cavalry that they should own.
Nag suit my kind of play which is counter-offencive most of the time. About hilly maps, well naginata are so slow. Imagine 2v2 games. Naginata's speed is more obvious at those games http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
I wish only they were a bit stronger against cav. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

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I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!

[Jemasze Toda]

Dear Koc

The point is that you can win with Naginatas
in 10.000 koku games on ironing too! Hehe

I love Naginata and you seem to like them too...thats good!

yours Jemasze