Flags Again!!

[Barkhorn1x]

There is one screenshot here;

http://www.gamezone.com/gamesell/screens/s21482.htm?Num=0

…where a Julian Faction army is facing a Carthaginian force and the units on each side have many, many flags ( the Julian force looks like it’s marching down Red Square with all those banners)

I guess the sub-flags signify unit valor, huh?

OK – it is STILL my considered opinion that the main flags are WAY too large and the sub-flags are just DUMB.

Now, if you feel that they serve a purpose – for you – then by all means use them. But please CA – give us the option to turn them off - so that those of us who want a more naturalistic tactical experience can get it w/o trying to see through a sea of canvas.

Barkhorn.

[Orange]

I agree the flags are many, too many. However, considering the small flags represent valour, this may not be a common sight in single player games, where most units have considerable less valour.
In multiplayer however, I dare not say, since I lack the experience thereof.

So, I do not mind that much. They have been in the game always, and serve a purpose. But I have of course nothing against options.

[Kraxis]

It is highly likely that we will only see one or two per unit, this is far too many. It has always been like this in the screenshots we have seen (back since the STW days), extremely high valour units duking it out.

If the banners are bad, what then do you want representing the valour?

[Hurin_Rules]

Shouldn't we just have one flag for each unit? Perhaps the relative size of the flag could indicate that unit's valor. Why do you need a separate flag for individuals within that unit?

[The_Emperor]

Maybe we should have a line across the base of the main flag to signify unit valour instead?

Sort of like a tally. After all if Valour is capped more in RTW Compared to MTW (as has been implied), it could work without having too many tally marks.

[Kraxis]

If small banners are too unhistorical, then I doubt a line across the banner would be better. And personally I like the small banners much better than a line across the main banner (to be honest it would just look very fake, sorry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif).

Banners are already rather big so we can more easily select the units. If they then began to grow as well, I fear MP would become a horrible sight with giant banners all over the place, even SP would possibly become unpleasant as we almost always have a single unit that grows a good number of valours, 5-6 valours (outside a generals influence) are not uncommon in my games...

Small banners at least present in a very obvious way that this unit if highly regarded by the enemy as they are allowed to carry many ceremonial banners along with them. And it is not that unhistorical as certain legions managed to gain a lot of fame for themselves and were presented with more banners and aditional titles. If they carried them into battle is more than just unlikely, but is it really that bad?

[Sir Robin]

Actually I believe this option is already built in.

Have you seen the latest Gamespot trailer?

There is a part with a marching Roman army that the camera passes over.

You can actually see a unit flag fade out and disappear as the camera gets closer to the unit. A little later you can see the unit flag fade back in as the unit gets further away.

I am all for big unit flags. Anything to make controlling and identifying them my troops more easily.

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (Barkhorn1x @ May 05 2004,15:56)]There is one screenshot here;

http://www.gamezone.com/gamesell/screens/s21482.htm?Num=0

…where a Julian Faction army is facing a Carthaginian force and the units on each side have many, many flags ( the Julian force looks like it’s marching down Red Square with all those banners)

I guess the sub-flags signify unit valor, huh?

OK – it is STILL my considered opinion that the main flags are WAY too large and the sub-flags are just DUMB.

Now, if you feel that they serve a purpose – for you – then by all means use them. But please CA – give us the option to turn them off - so that those of us who want a more naturalistic tactical experience can get it w/o trying to see through a sea of canvas.

Barkhorn.
About the 'subflags': handy things they are. Especially in MP they allow you to destinguish what units of the enemy are valorous or not, so you know what to concentrate on to and what to pin or keep busy.

Personally it just looks like two extremely valorous armies are about to give it to each other... it would be nice to see it in motion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Nope, no oppressive atmosphere to me here. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif



~Wiz

[Barkhorn1x]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ May 05 2004,11:49)]If the banners are bad, what then do you want representing the valour?
How about the NUMBER on the unit in the army panel below? When I was playing M:TW it was a fairly simple matter to identify who it was that was good/better/best.

I don't play MP - don't have the time. And I am interested in a historical/simulated experience on the battlefield. All I ask is an OPTION to turn all flags OFF.

Barkhorn.

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Barkhorn1x @ May 05 2004,14:07)]
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ May 05 2004,11:49)]If the banners are bad, what then do you want representing the valour?
How about the NUMBER on the unit in the army panel below? When I was playing M:TW it was a fairly simple matter to identify who it was that was good/better/best.

I don't play MP - don't have the time. And I am interested in a historical/simulated experience on the battlefield. All I ask is an OPTION to turn all flags OFF.

Barkhorn.
So, you have never run into that Byzantine army where a single Byz Inf unit had Valour 6 and the rest Valour 2 (due to the general), and never taken a careful look at the Byz Inf unit to make certain where it was? I have many times... It simply doesn't look too good for you if you try to block it with a Valour 1 Feudal Sergeant.

Now, I'm not against an option to remove them, I would actually like it to more or less play a more Iron Man game. Along with the line of sight command style you can play, it should prove to make the game much more challenging (along with the AI being better as tehy claim in the video interviews).

[Barkhorn1x]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ May 05 2004,14:38)]So, you have never run into that Byzantine army where a single Byz Inf unit had Valour 6 and the rest Valour 2 (due to the general), and never taken a careful look at the Byz Inf unit to make certain where it was? I have many times... It simply doesn't look too good for you if you try to block it with a Valour 1 Feudal Sergeant.
Actually no - and my resoning is that I would never really know that information at the unit level on the battlefield.

Besides I consider myself a tactical genius. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Barkhorn.

[RisingSun]

Barkhorn, you may never play MP, but the point is that other people do. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Barkhorn1x]

Quote[/b] (RisingSun @ May 05 2004,15:50)]Barkhorn, you may never play MP, but the point is that other people do. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Did you miss the phrase OPTION TO TURN OFF in my posts?

Perhaps you should read them again.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Spino]

I don't have a problem with having flags but I do think the valor flags are way too large. They really do clutter up the view. I much prefer the smaller, simpler, triangular valor flags in Medieval. Having the option of disabling the unit & valor flags would be a real plus for those of us looking to create the most realistic atmosphere possible. Besides, it shouldn't be so damn easy for you to tell at a glance precisely how experienced a particular enemy unit is Talk about unrealistic

However I really like the fact that, per the most recent trailer, all the flags disappear when you zoom up close to the units. Nice touch CA, it makes things seem much more realistic.

[RZST]

this would be fixed if there was a on-off witch.

personally i would want them off, the more harder it is and the more historically accurate imo.

[Nowake]

Dunno if you people realise the importance of those banners; it is not about your troops, but about the enemyes. In the game you can't look at the soldiers and see how sure they are of themselves, how old they are etc. And you have to know the valour of the enemy soldiers, otherwise you'll be very likely to lose. Even the MP will transform in this kind of unrealistic tactical surprises. So sub-banners must be in.

[econ21]

The sub-banners in MTW are rather unobtrusive and informative, whereas those in RTW just look too big. Maybe it is because the men in RTW appear larger than those in MTW, so the banners are scaled up too.

I agree with the Emperor that notches on a single flag or some such (stars? laurels?) would be a more aesthetically pleasing way of giving this information if we need it. (Not sure we should really know the enemies' valour - our own we can tell from the display of all our units on the horizontal bar at the bottom of the screen).

[The Wizard]

People, look at the latest official trailer of RTW. You see unit, yes? You see flag, yes? You see camera panning around battlefield, yes? You see flags dissapearing when camera comes near yes? Good boy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif



~Wiz

[Barkhorn1x]

Quote[/b] (Nowake @ May 06 2004,02:49)]And you have to know the valour of the enemy soldiers, otherwise you'll be very likely to lose. Even the MP will transform in this kind of unrealistic tactical surprises. So sub-banners must be in.
I don’t get this at all. So…you’re saying that w/o the sub-banners - basically giving you WAY more information than you would actually have on the enemy, and an unfair advantage – you w/ lose the battle?

Hey – all I want is realism – and realistically a spy may be able to find out the unit make-up of an enemy force – but not the details on each unit.

[Barkhorn1x]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ May 06 2004,06:17)]People, look at the latest official trailer of RTW. You see unit, yes? You see flag, yes? You see camera panning around battlefield, yes? You see flags dissapearing when camera comes near yes? Good boy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif



~Wiz
Yea, the flags disappear when it gets up close and personal. I just don’t want to see the flags at ALL – just give me the OPTION to kill them and I will shut up.

Barkhorn.

[The_Emperor]

If you guys want to see the valour rating shown, why not in a tooltip alongside the usual information (Marching Standing, etc)

It doesn't even need to say the word Valour.

Roman Velites
(Faction/Player Name)
Marching
V4

There you go, no need for little flags.

[Barkhorn1x]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ May 06 2004,09:27)]If you guys want to see the valour rating shown, why not in a tooltip alongside the usual information (Marching Standing, etc)

It doesn't even need to say the word Valour.

Roman Velites
(Faction/Player Name)
Marching
V4

There you go, no need for little flags.
We have a winner

Barkhorn.

[RisingSun]

But unless it is a permanent piece of info like the name, you'll have to wait for it to cycle through to that info, which means wasting a lot of time.

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (RisingSun @ May 06 2004,15:16)]But unless it is a permanent piece of info like the name, you'll have to wait for it to cycle through to that info, which means wasting a lot of time.
Exactly I'm totally for this option.
Now you would have to use some time on the units, much like the scouts of an army would, to determine their worth. How likely is it that you could just pan over an army and instantly know how good they were? Not very. But if you spent some time watching them march. Were they confident, were they in good order, were they clean ect ect...
Of course this would be much shorter but it would make a good simulation of it.

But I still like the smaller banners, so an option for this would be nice, and a great Iron Man option.

[mfberg]

Battle flags/standards were very important for signalling as were trumpets and drums. If the commander facing them were good he was able to get a grasp of a units skill from these signals and ability of the unit to respond. I think the valor flags are a way to show this.

mfberg

[Knight_Yellow]

i doubt these are final.

look at MTW pre release shots and look at the game now, completely different.

although i would personaly like to see 1 main flag and like in MTW smaller valour flags....

[Nowake]

well, RTW is in alpha now, not so many things will change from now on.

[The_Emperor]

I'm still hoping that there is an option to turn flags off... After all didn't Time Commanders feature long distance shots of units without banners?

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Nowake @ May 07 2004,00:39)]well, RTW is in alpha now, not so many things will change from now on.
I think it has advanced into Beta, but plenty of things like that can change.

Just look at the screenshots of the Starcraft Alpha, a completely different game from the one gamers love now. So things do change a lot.

The Alpha basically is used to test if the engine is running properly and if the animation (or in this case the polygons) are acting like they should.