Social inbalance...

[RageMonsta]

Due to the inbalance with the game concerning the ashi farmer units...Monsta is sad to report that Rage are guilty of unfair employment standards..

We have rejected applications from farm workers to become part of our/their army due to the inbalance caused during play....we fight for the freedom of all people thoughout the world but sadly are unable to allow this plague of rural workers to be included in our struggle.

We must say a heart felt sorry to all those farm hands who will not be taken on our REVOLUTIONARY campaign....we can although advise them that work may be found (not as well organised or practised mind) with other organizations throughout the STW world....for an indication of who is willing to take you (farm folk) on in their army please read the threads within the ORG.

We as a clan look forward to the days when the new stats are complete so that we can welcome our farming brothers back into the armed forces.

On a lighter note....Monsta must say that RAGE will not tolerate any (sorry my keys are broke but the missing letter is before y and after w) se-ist/homophobic/racist/nationalist/fascist/ignorant chat or attitude within the on line game....please if you witness this type of action mail Monsta ragemonsta@hotmail.com

we promote freedom of speech and thought but not at the e-pense of others.

RAGE AGAINST........

[Krasturak]

Gah! Krast offes translation services for free!

What Krast's Glorious and Ever-So-Socialist Daimyo is saying is this:

Gah! Ashi! Gah!

Daxn! Ashi! Gnish! Gnash! Gni!

Gah! RageClan! Ywa! Ywa! Ywa!

Hoql! Erak! Ashi! 1.03! Gorfle! Ywa!

[Jemasze Toda]

Wow, Monsta!
A great task you put on your broad shoulders when you announce yourself as spearhead of the struggle against all the immoral attitudes of unknown but potentially dangerous forces within our community.
Sexism, fascism, nationalism, homophobia, racism...and RAGE will fight all those evil tendencies and many more with its undoubtely
immense might!
Beware! Evil is upon us!

Hehe you might allow the fool to comment on that honourable aim but maybe the fool himself is part of these evil forces and needs to be terminated?
Nevertheless it may be a sign of wisdom to have a closer look at all these evil things you mentioned: Fascim, nationalism....

Would you consider ...hmm lets say the United States a ultra-nationalistic and almost fascistic country?
No?
Why?
Because they are a democratic and christian ( god's OWN country that is!)country? Because they have freedom of speech?
Because the US does not want to rule the world, it is just defending our values against the evil axis ( whoever that might be...) ?

Hehe please excuse the poor fool and his limited understanding of the structures and aspects of life, but from the fool's perspective it may look a bit different:

The United States are a powerful country with a strong "will to power" ( Wille zur Macht). It uses in order to keep and increase that strong will christianity for example as a kind of energy for its fight for political survival AND dominance!
Christian virtues have almost nothing to do with american political and social reality!
The morale which followed in the path of christianity - and our interpretation of democracy is still a basically (pseudo-)christian one - is little more than a weapon in the political ( and militarical! I quote v. Clausewitz: "War is politics by other means") battle for world supremacy.
Of course this is not part of the consciousness of most people, but i saw that you Monsta understood a lot when you spoke about double-morale standards in the "best player" topic.
If a country forces other countries to adapt to its own morale, economical and political standards, is that NOT a sign of a will to power? Not a sign of an "nationalistic" country? Not a sign of a strong will to dominate?
What is dominance else? A father ( a mother as well hehe) who educates his son/ daughter by his standards, is he not using force to do that? He may be the most nicest father of all, but even nicety and wisdom are only ways of using force! If a father is really weak his children will demonstrate his weakness to him....Children need to have respect for their parents. They react very openly to the strong will or the lack of it of their parents.
Back to the US: Is the Us a nationalistic country? Of course it is! Otherwise it would have collapsed long ago...
Is it even fascist in a certain way?
Yes it is!
What is fascism? The fasces were tokens of the auctoritas and might of a Roman magistrate. They were presented by the lictores who walked in front of that magistrate. ( A praetor, consul and a dictator) The italian fascists under Mussolini took that ancient symbol as their own in order to demonstrate that their political aim was
first: to rebuild the Roman empire
second: to create a new/ old society were the "best" shall rule, not the socialists with their aim to level every "social inbalance".
Have a look at the US again and you might see
first: The United States is the direct heir of the old Roman empire - look at the political system and even the political architecture!
second: despite all the talk about god and Jesus ( http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif ) the reality is a different one: The strongest survives! The "best" ( richest, mightiest, loudest) is admired very much in american social life and all try to take part in that struggle for power...
THAT is the american dream! Just do it!
Science is working hard to create "better" humans, for example by genetic research, kloning, etc. Hehe and look at all the beauty-operations. If you don't fit into the common ideal ( which is the most perfect face and body) change your body by chirugic means. Plastic tits and artifical lips.....are they not common in the US and in all their satellites?
Isn't that human to the bones? Human- too human?
Someone may call that fascism..... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

So it would be wise to have a closer look at the morale we drank deeply in with our social mother-milk....

Hehe but a good post nevertheless Monsta!

Damn! I did it again: I spoke in this forum, where we should talk about Shogun only, about morale standards and life!
Life is will to power and nothing else!
( Leben ist Wille zur Macht und nichts außerdem!)
Hmm, but from the fools point of view we can watch almost all the aspects of "real" life within our tiny online-community as well. So in fact we speak about Shogun and the will for supremacy in here at the same time http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Or what do you think why we have clans, Khans of Khans, Demons, Ninjas and other mighty warriors in here....

yours Jemasze

The fool

[RageMonsta]

I think Krast 'hit the nail on the head' with the translation of my ever so tongue in cheek reference to ashi power.

The final section about attitudes toward others on line is not tongue in cheek...we do have alot of younger players these days and sadly they are subject to alot of mass media and stereotyping images.....the internet is/was a decentralized/unregulated forum for free thought and expression and a perfect way in which to maybe even open one eye to the truth about the world and society around us...

You are trying say that Monsta is not aware of the 'Evil Empire' Jem?....I have found to my pleasure that the average American person is quite aware of the inequalities that stem from their government ( indeed majority of 'western powers')...the American system is less facsist but more functionalist (Jem read Parsons) and this is due to the counter socialist feeling during the cold war...the two party system for example ( no real labour movement)....the attitude of America towards the 'commie' threat can be seen in the acceptance of the 'fascist' regime that once held power in South Korea..(anything to stop the tide of communism I suppose!).

Going back to STW....I may not be able to right the worlds wrongs...or stay completely within the lines myself (life time of corrupt socialization is hard to shake)...but if I can help 1 person see that..( for example) Muslims are not all bomb threats or not all gay people carry aids..etc...then I am a better person for it.

It is the duty in many respect for all the older players....to socialize new players to our world...example- not escaping or cheating..and also to try if possible to promote some kind of understanding about minorities....because sadly this may be missing at home and it is sure is from the mass media...

Agree or not fellow STW folk....but Monsta will try....if you dont want to thats fine also...but i would like to think everybody felt comfortable in the chat area no matter their phenotypical (colour) appearance...religion...political ideology...as long as they dont harm others.

If you are for example a devout Christian thats fine....you may not agree with homosexuals etc.....but dont make it a point...if you are American you will sure be upset about the attack...but this doesnt mean all Muslims are evil....you may even like the right wing facist groups.....but that doesnt mean you are free to attack non white on STW...you may think little of women but this does not mean you are free to insult them when present....in fact you can do any of theses things but dont expect me to sit silent...Monsta wont accept it and neither should you....to shogun and the future.

p.s my x is working woohoo.

[Jemasze Toda]

Dear Monsta

and i agree absolutely with you that we need to "socialize" members of our community; otherwise we would not have a community! (which obviously functions as any other social group)

I also agree with you that we should not force our political or general point of view on others, but as i see it, that does not mean that we should stop discussing things.
It should be possible to provoke, stirr up, attack etc, as long as you don't try to insult, threath or don't pay any respect to your fellow Shogun-addict.

Concerning the US, thats exactly what i am saying Monsta! Only i may have a different perspective on terms like "Fascism" or "Nationalism". You said the attitude of the US-citizen towards their own government is more "functional" than "fascistic". It
is functional, i must agree again ( that is why they only USE christianity as a weapon in the global struggle and do not LIVE this irrealistic and sometimes even dangerous religion!) From my point of view though, that is no statement AGAINST my classification, to the contrary!
Don't get me wrong, Monsta, i very much admire the US for their strength and their "will to power", although i also believe that they need a more brighter horizon in the future in order to overcome the coming crisises and desasters...they will come for sure, i foretell!
Maybe thats the task for the "weak" and "tired" Europeans: To give their american heirs some of its old wisdom and as compensation submit in a way to american dominance...hehe you know, like the greek did with the romans. ( i simplify, i know that... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif )
So Monsta, i am very much aware of the fact that you see many things and some of them more clearly than i do, otherwise i wouldn't bother to have a discussion with you....

yours Jemasze

[RageMonsta]

It seems sad really that every 'power' group uses some type of 'god' to control or influence the masses...this can be religion or maybe money....anything....but the most damaging thing about using something such as Christianity is the fact that it is using a good (well hmmm depending...if you take the basic idea about 'goodwill' etc) message for a bad reason.....just like Northern Ireland with the use of Catholic and Prod ideals to gain support for what are on the whole are gangster organisation that exploit their own people in the name of something else.

My worry for STW is that there may be a halt of new players from different areas/cultures or backgrounds because they may feel that the majority of the players are as ignorant as the chat that is often seen in the room. It must hurt the odd person who may be homosexual when they see such comments as 'fag' etc...or the odd misplaced nationalist/racist comment is used....for example a veteran player (from America) describe somebody to me as a 'camel jockey'... not sure what it was because I was on my way into a game but....this is what I mean....did they know before making the comment my origins?.......doubtful.

[theforce]

Open some fast foods mate http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!

[tootee]

BigMac, coke and fries to go for me pls http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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[RageMonsta]

Explain the 'fast food comment'...I seem be to missing something.

[This message has been edited by RageMonsta (edited 05-24-2002).]

[Tankdogg123]

I think they mean the posts are so damn long! lol I can't be arsed reading them :-)

[Papewaio]

It is okay if I treat everyone equal, so is it racism if I hate everyone?

And as a guy am I sexist for preferring females over males? Am I offending every male by not seeing them as a potential sex object? Am I offending females by not seeing every female as a potential sex object just some of them?

Am I ignorant because I am asking questions?

[theforce]

By bringing fast foods in your clan's provinces like McDonalds, Goodies etc then you can also have peasants in your army, too. There won't be any need for rice gathering. Also having them in your army as a "human shield"(for those you have seen south park the movie) will allow you to deplete the enemies projectiles by having them in the first lines to draw enemy fire.
In addition if your enemy attempts to destroy the food transports(McDonalds, pizza hut .etc) then the Yanks will be pissed and help you in your campain against the other samurais with missiles .etc
Dear Monsta you have failed to examine the ashi matter from all the ranges thus have not seen that ahsis can help your army. As you have seen the strategy above will lead you to victory!

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I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!

[RageMonsta]

The ashi issue is a matter of principle....I am sure that most of the veteran players can play an army that will win nearly all battles against the average player....example- supa ashi and supa guns.

The point made about ashi was meant as a joke..lets say tongue in cheek view of our refusal to use a unit that is clearly inbalanced....it would be like camping or escaping in many ways....just another 'cheap' way to gain victory....'force' ashi could indeed 'help' my army...(mainly due to the problems with up grades) but Monsta takes pride that he can gain victory without them..unlike the less 'skilled' players who still insist in exploiting this 'system'.

It would be interesting to compile a list of armies that were used before MI and see how many times the ashi was used...yes indeed some used them..but only as an 'army filler'....this in itself shows how it just another 'arcade style' glitch...the same goes for guns....majority of players at one time used them h0...because we played with less koku....but due to the weakness of alot of the newer breed of player they required higher honour to even stay in the battle for more than a couple of seconds.....

The tactical side of the game has fallen partially due to the need for 'supa' units....I mean why bother to flank an enemy or use a greater tactical awareness when you can just shoot them to bits of over power them with your supa ashi.

[Tankdogg123]

Hmmm ashi I sometimes use these units mainly when I am playing somebody who I know will is gonna take ashi. Although the people who play me should be able to tell u I don't overload on artillery so with me it's not a case of shoot then use ashi. If I am playing someone who I really want to beat I will prob take them and in most cases I only really want to beat them coz they use ashi.

[theforce]

We had a 4v4 today, 4max and 4honor max and l liked it even if it was in green or was it ironing board...my nag trully shined at h4 and hold pos and form were able to stop cav and incoming monkers for a very long time. In higher honor games though the hyper ashi would have killed em. I myself use ashis sometimes cause l know that the other guys is gonna use em.
4 honor max seems like a good idea!



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I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!

[RageMonsta]

Indeed...some of us have been trying to promote 4 honour max lower koku games (6-8K) for a while...when people realise that this is a very good way to play with current problems then hopefully the ashi and gun issue will die.

[Puzz3D]

The beauty of the game of chess is that properly applied logic works. There is uncertainty because you can't see every possible variation out to the end of the game, so you use judgement based on logical principles and prevous playing experience.
Although Shogun has a much higher level of uncertainy, properly applied logic is still the most important factor in winning. Many of the people playing this game are doing so because they want to apply their logical skill to the complex problem that a Shogun battle represents and improve that skill. It's certainly nice to win, but the journey to the win is very important. It's the richness of that journey that makes a win really memorable. Taking advantage of factors in the game that simplifies the logical problem takes away from the richness of the journey and misses out on a big part of the experience.

As far as the social/political commentary in this thread, I agree with Jemasze that ultimately force decides who gets what whether force is actually used or not. If you are weaker you better go to great lengths to appear to pose no threat to the stronger entity. But, this discussion should really be in the wonderful off-topic forum.

MizuYuuki ~~~

[RageMonsta]

Not off topic as it relates to the STW community and the attitude that is often present with many of the ignorant who decide to insult others who dont live up to their 'standards'..such as homosexuals/women/other nationalities/different phenotypical etc.

Removal to off topic of many things that dont fit the 'what is your favourite unit'post is what killed the STW.com forum ....certain issues need to be mentioned now and again.. even if they are not as user friendly as the 'how i killed 100000 in a bridge defence' type threads.

[ElmarkOFear]

It's still ok to call somebody Ugly isn't it? I would hate to have to change my name to be politically correct. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif UglyElmo Monster I have come up with a way to avoid the Super Unit issue as well as the gun army dilemma. I put together the build orders for every type of unit in the Sengoku Jidai era. The info. is contained in a spreadsheet and I can send it to you if you like. My idea was to have everyone (given a certain koku level) create their armies by using the build order from the single player game. To produce an H2 ashi unit you would have to build a castle, Large Castle, Fortress, Citadel, Spear Dojo, Famous Spear Dojo, Legendary Spear Dojo. You would then have to train the unit at its normal cost (100 koku). You can see that there is an automatic cap on starting armies do to the limit created by the building requirement, plus it gets cost prohibitive when you must start building the more expensive Citadel to produce higher honor units. Please go to the Ugly forum if you are interested in trying this. Leave an email addy so I can email you the spreadsheet (please state what format you want it in, it is currently in the Microsoft Works format, but I can easily save it in another type (Excel) etc.) You can also email me at el-marko@insightbb.com

[Jemasze Toda]

Ahhh MizuYuuki, here we have a brilliant mind...hehe
By the way, from my point of view -i agree again with Monsta there - this topic and similar ones should be published in "general discussion" and not "off-topic". As i see it we need lively discussions and arguements in "general discussion". The biggest compliment you can make about this wonderful game is, that it attracts NOT only the usual online-egoshooting maniac ( http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif not meant as an offense ) but also good and interesting exchange of thoughts between capable warriors, called Samurai!
A true warrior needs to train not only his physical abilities but also his mind. He needs to be able to see the many aspects of live and he needs to analyse them.
Constant measuring, weighting and jugding is the essence of the skills of a Samurai...hehe.
How could he be otherwise a good and worthy warrior?
Hmmm, maybe thats another interesting topic on its own:
What is a warrior and do we need them in life?
Is that really "off-topic"? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

yours Jemasze

[theforce]

While honor 4 max prevents ashis, same amounts of guns and arrows remain.
Anyway l think that the biggest problem is the flat maps and the way that people play.
There should be hilly maps that allow the attacker to gain height advantage. Like hilly maps that are hard to defend but also hard to attack thus making AGAIN tactics more importand!

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I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!