Odd or not?

[SpencerH]

Yesterday I was being flanked by 20 royal cav (spanish/late era/expert). I started my 40 chivalric knights (gold weapons and armor upgrades) charging at them proabably a few seconds after their charge started. When I looked back I was stunned to see that I had lost ~20 knights to their 2 or 3. I charged the same royals with swiss halbs (all upgrades). It cost me 38 chivalric knights and 50 halbs (I think) to kill 20 royals. If it had been a king unit I could have understood (if not agreed with) the bizarre results. Maybe it was a prince?

Heres another one.

I sent a steppe heavy cav around a lake to come up behind the attacking byzantinies. They counter with arbs. Thinking it was easy pickings, and not wanting a missle duel, I charged. Unfortunately, I got chopped to pieces Seems a little strange to me.

[ichi]

What was the valor of the units in questions?

Remember than 1 valor adds 2 morale, 1 attack, and 1 defense to a units stats, so if you were running a valor zero unit against a valor 4 unit (which isnt out of the ordinary for the some factions) then no doubt you got hacked to bits.

[CBR]

Yes big differences in valor will mean some units, that are supposed to be weak, will be a lot stronger that one might think.


CBR

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] ]Heres another one.

I sent a steppe heavy cav around a lake to come up behind the attacking byzantinies. They counter with arbs. Thinking it was easy pickings, and not wanting a missle duel, I charged. Unfortunately, I got chopped to pieces Seems a little strange to me.


When the comp attacks you with ranged troops then they are usually quite good and can chew up your units quite badly.

[Lord Dazed & Confused]

Yeah I've even had zero valour units hacked to bits by high valour peasants (hangs head in shame)
Are you playing on expert ?

[SpencerH]

Yes the campaign is expert. I dont think there's any way my troops could have been 0 valor. I cant swear to it, but I guess both the chivalric knights and swiss halbs were at least 2 or 3. Of course, the royal knights they faced could have been very high valor but IMO the results are still a little odd.

As for the steppe heavies vs arbs, it shouldnt happen. Even without weapons, 40 horses formed into a double line charging 60 men without spears is a massacre. AFAIK it will be better in RTW since the effects of the horses will be better accounted for.

[katank]

well, the arbs are deadly in their missile fire and the last volley could have mowed down an entire row of 8-10.

besides, the valor thing is always there.


also, on expert they get +30% combat bonus which corresponds to roughly 1 additional valour and their +4 morale means they don't rout.

[son of spam]

Are you shi**ing me? They get +1 valor in expert on top of their +4 morale bonus? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Holy crap no wonder all my units get chopped to bits unless I flank like crazy and still some of their units fight on.

I just finished a battle against the scilians and a 1 valor copper armored scilian pavisier held off practically my entire army. It was actually pretty funny watching it. I sent in my swabians, heerban, and contandina inf around the flank while a spear held it in place. Then I charged a knechte and a Knight Templar from the rear. the Pavisier still refused to rout, and was even winning. When I looked, the pavisier had formed itself into a lopsided square, and was holding attacks from all sides. It finally routed, but only when it was down to 10 men or so.

Oh, and did I mention that their general was halfway across the map with the main scilian army kicking the crap out of my allies the papists?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[katank]

how did you get both heerban and contadina cav?

bribes?

BTW, it's the engage feature that allows for fantastic shapes for units.

I don't complain since a byz inf of mine was once able to hold off no less than 4 Danish RKs at once using some similar contortions.

that byz inf suffered heavy casualties and only have 30 some men left but routed all 4 RKs and killed in total some 240 men that battle.

granted it was with help of my treb archers shooting nonstop but routing 4 RKs at once is quite an accomplishment for a sword unit that costs less than a single RK

[SpencerH]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 10 2004,16:38)]well, the arbs are deadly in their missile fire and the last volley could have mowed down an entire row of 8-10.

besides, the valor thing is always there.


also, on expert they get +30% combat bonus which corresponds to roughly 1 additional valour and their +4 morale means they don't rout.
I'm >90% sure that the arbs didnt even get off one volley. They were marching toward me I was walking toward them then charged at just the right moment.

I did notice in another battle that my arbs/crossbowmen I was looking at (up close) were wielding axes in a melee against some horsey-types. Since the game thinks an axe is some type of magical anti-armour or (anti-cav maybe) weapon it may explain the result.

[katank]

I don't think X-bows get axes.

Is that a bug in animation? Did you check in gnome?

I'm certain they don't get anti cav bonuses and fairly sure that no AP ability for x-bows or arbs.

[SpencerH]

I zoomed right in at pretty high resolution and they looked just like axes and the animation action was consistent with swinging an axe rather than stabbing with a sword (which surprised me). Next time it I see any of these lot in a melee I'll pay close attention to whether its pavise, arbs, or x-bow that seem to have this.

Assuming Im not suffering from a seventies flashback http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif , axes would mean they would have a bonus vs armour (as does every axe-wielding unit).

[CBR]

Yes crossbow/arbalester uses small axes in the animations. But they are not treated as having axes/armour piercing weapons.


CBR

[son of spam]

I got all those weird troops together because it was a crusade army.

But byz inf are swords, and can do engage at will, but Pavisiers are spears, and so they should die without that ranks bonu http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[katank]

so true for pavisiers.

while medmod is quite a good mod, I really do think the Italians are OP wiht their inf.

they shouldn't be able to beat off entire armies with just one unit.

[SpencerH]

Quote[/b] (CBR @ May 11 2004,13:10)]Yes crossbow/arbalester uses small axes in the animations. But they are not treated as having axes/armour piercing weapons.


CBR
Whew, I'm glad I'm not losing my mind. I looked this morning while attacking some arbs with some sword-swingers and they just ran (with no axes in sight) so I was starting to think I had seen them swinging their arbs/CB in an axe-like manner against my horsies.

[SpencerH]

After some testing with custom battles, the key to the odd chivalric vs royal knight result appears to be two factors. First, my chivalric knights charged while in 4 ranks while the royals were in line. That alone will allow the royals to win pretty handily with no valour differences. With a 1 point valour benefit for the royal knights(and the difference in formation) they crush the chivalric knights. I havent thrown the halbs into the test yet.

Given that the best formation for the knights is a single line, this suggests to me that 20 man formations may be more effective on most battlefields since they are less cumbersome to maneuver in that formation.

[katank]

tip: switch to wedge for maneuvering.

the wedges turn faster and can charge through small gaps in enemy lines etc.

when you charge, use wedge also. after the wedge hits, switch to close and you see your kngihts unfurling nicely into a 1 line formation which also flanks the target unit most of the time.

also, for cav on cav, wedge is ideal counter for 1 line formation due to haivng two fronts and no flanks, only 1 back.

you can punch through the one line formation with a wedge and come back to recharge.