How do you start off when playing as HRE

[GoldenKnightX2]

I just tried playing with HRE (first time) I ended up with disloyal armies and provinces, it was horrible I wanted to know how everyone else starts off when the play as the HRE. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Manage my own taxes and drop them to the floor to increase loyalty.

Pay for farming improvements, which increase income and get the "good steward" virtue. That comes quickly with as many provinces as you get with the Empire. The virtue increases both province and generals' loyalties.

You'll be able to raise taxes after a few turns. You should be able to go back to auto-tax. Also, keep marrying off those princesses.

I also economize on units. I rely on Slav Warriors and Slav Javelinmen from Bohemia at first. They're cheap but quite a bit better than plain spears and archers -- if you practice micro-managing the javelins. Also, you can take the barbarian province of Pomerania, which also produces the Slav units.

That will get the Empire up and running, at least.

[Edited P.S. -- Katank's right about the towers and building virtues. I left out that step.]

[MalibuMan]

I've never played HRE, but as a general tip, you need to aim for nearer 200% loyalty than 100% in your provinces.

[katank]

watch tower and border fort in every province for first two turns.

this gets him magnificent builder and is good for loyalty.

you should build only peasants from provence and slav warriors from bohemia with an occasional archer from switzerland.

build purely economy and only mines and farms with expected income 10* or more than percentage.

right click for expected income.

if 230 florins on 20% upgrade, then build it. if 150, then don't.

take pomerania with saxony force and king.

use some spears to keep danes in line and saxony happy.

this is if playing defensive game.

if offensive, then blitz italian states ASAP.

take all of Italian continental holdings and also take Rome when you have enough troops as the popesta actually has a decent amount of starting troops.

I would sack the Danes next for land access to scandanavia so you get huscarles.

stay defensive with french while you knock out Hungarians by taking Hungary and then ransoming their king gives your cash strapped empire a little boost.

hitting the Poles now gives nice 4 province defensive border and access to the steppes.

Grab Flanders for trade and Champagne and Ile de France.

Toulouse serves as nice buffer between you and Iberian foes like Aragonese and Spanish so let the French have it or you may want it for the farmland and bonused chiv kngihts later.

your choice.

[motorhead]

I've played a few HRE/early/expert campaigns and here's what I'd recommend (assuming you have VI):
1) March on scandanavia. Securing Denmark and Sweden are top priorities, Norway isn't critical and can be secured later. With Denmark and Sweden you can start building the various viking units (carls, landsmenn and huscarles). Landsmenn are the equals of FMAA, require just a keep to build (denmark starts with a castle)and they're preferred general candidates (you'll see alot more 1-2 star generals with them). Crank out some landsmenn and use them as border generals. These countries will also help form the core of your eventual trade network.
2) Build watch towers and border forts in "secure" provs: anything on or north of Friesland/Franconia/Bohemia.
3) Be willing to completely abandon : Burgundy, Tyrolia, Switzerland and Austria. Blow up any structures they have for cash, don't build anything there. It's even a good idea to withdraw all your troops, set max taxes and hope you get some nice rebel armies to protect your borders. Rebels tend to be much less aggressive neighbors than AI factions.
4) Try and hold: Swabia, Bavaria and Lorraine. Keep some troops there, but don't hold them at all costs. Eventually, you'd like to be able to build Swabian Swordsmen in Swabia. They're slightly less effective than Huscarles, but cheaper and lower maintenance costs.
5) Next add Pomerania, Prussia, Silesia and Poland to your empire. Pomerania and Prussia both have prov titles that give +1command - tack these onto some of your landsmenn that already have command and you can start using them for offensive operations. Pom. and Pruss. also have trade goods and add to your future trade network.
6) Consolidate your borders - minimally Friesland (trade good), Franconia (iron), Bohemia (iron), Poland and Prussia (trade goods). Start developing Franconia and Bohemia and build weaponsmiths (+attack), they should become your main spear/cav producers. Build trading posts in your coastal provs with trade goods. Build profitable farms in secure provs (don't waste money on provs that are in imminent danger of invasion).
7) Start to crank out ships. Move them only in pairs since the AI loves to pick off lone ships. Slowly expand your shipping network outwards. If you can establish trade with england and down the coast a bit, you should soon be turning a nice 4-6k profit per turn. Use these proceeds to keep developing your economic and military infrastructure.
8) Hopefully, you've now got a secure empire with decent economic base and a good military foundation. You can either push east onto the steppes, south into the heart of europe or west to england.

edit: HRE is always in danger from neighboring catholics. Since the pope only excomms if one faction is twice the size of the other, the HRE is often on the wrong end.

[GoldenKnightX2]

Ive tried alot of what you guys have posted, its working out great, thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[PseRamesses]

You might also find some info in the Guides forum. Good luck

[Kristaps]

don't rely on spears for defensive armies from the start. urban militia and militia sergeants are much cheaper upkeep-wise... when deployed in the woods (HRE has plenty) militia types can do wonders against any attackers :)

as an extra hint: the AI is not likely to throw anything too powerful against your exclusively militia garrisons (including militia sergeants). it seems the AI generals utterly underestimate the power of people ;)

so, bottom line, when playing HRE defensively - militia all the way :) and build them some churches for your empire's sake :)

[katank]

Miltia are awesome in Lorraine but I woudl recommend some slavs for good measure in the east and they also help elsewhere in chasing down archers etc.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 11 2004,17:59)]Miltia are awesome in Lorraine but I woudl recommend some slavs for good measure in the east and they also help elsewhere in chasing down archers etc.
My reasoning against slavs is that they are generally weaker than militia and cost more in upkeep (37 versus 30 for default unit size). And, I have yet to see vanilla slavs defeat royal bodyguards in the woods :) {routinely done by militia} RB's are the strongest units AI throws at you at the beginning of the game :)

As to Lorraine: similar wooded maps pop up in all provinces initially held by Germans :)

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ May 12 2004,09:12)]My reasoning against slavs is that they are generally weaker than militia and cost more in upkeep (37 versus 30 for default unit size). And, I have yet to see vanilla slavs defeat royal bodyguards in the woods :) {routinely done by militia} RB's are the strongest units AI throws at you at the beginning of the game :)
There's valid points here, but I favor the Slavs.

First off, Slav Warriors are simply a bigger unit for garrison purposes. You pay 23 percent more in upkeep costs for 67 percent more men.

Second, it's the combination of Slav Warriors and Slav Javelinmen that I like. Together, they beat royal knight handily. To put it another way, a unit of warriors and javs will beat Royal Knights and archers or even men at arms or feudal sergeants and archers.

I think Slav Warriors should not be used like regular spears, but put on "engage at will" in a drawn-out formation.

Sure, militia backed by javelins will do even better, but keep reading.

Third, Slav Warriors are faster than regular infantry. Any infantry that routs will probably not have many folks who get away.

Fourth, saying that Slav Warriors can't beat Royal Knights in the woods isn't relevant. Spear units suffer a penalty in the woods. Obviously, you're going to fight in the open if you have a spear unit and in the woods if you have militia.

Fifth, all you need for Slav Warriors is a fort. You can build them while working on the town watch to get militia and then on a spearmaker to get Slav Javs.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ May 12 2004,10:22)]Fourth, saying that Slav Warriors can't beat Royal Knights in the woods isn't relevant. Spear units suffer a penalty in the woods. Obviously, you're going to fight in the open if you have a spear unit and in the woods if you have militia.
Hmm, I wasn't aware that slav warriors were a spear unit: i.e., I've never noticed them to display any rank bonus or bonus versus cavalry as a spear unit should have. Am I missing something here? :)

Also, if they actually are a spear unit without a rank bonus it is better to deploy them in the woods: cavalry lose attack and defense points whereas the slavs wouldn't lose any because of lost rank bonus (since they don't have any anyways).

As to the upkeep and more men issue: hmm, what would I rather have: two units of slavs (200 men: 74 upkeep) or two units of urban militia (120 men: 60 upkeep)? I take militia over slavs any time :) I guess, my personal bias coming from a long line of livonian rebels fighting uninvited slav incursions ;)

By the way, those extra $7 per unit per year do add up when playing HRE in early :) Anyway, if for the same price I could get two 50-strong units of slavs: i'd take them. I could hold with one and flank with the other: the main reason why I have many urban militia units rather than fewer but larger slav units :)

P.S. just read up about slavs: they do not seem to have any rank bonus or bonus versus cavalry. Putting them in 'hold formation' would result in -2 attack 0 defense, including against cavalry... :(

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ May 12 2004,11:34)]P.S. just read up about slavs: they do not seem to have any rank bonus or bonus versus cavalry. Putting them in 'hold formation' would result in -2 attack 0 defense, including against cavalry... :(
I stand corrected. Touche, Kristaps.

Your point about two units with one for flanking is also a good one.

However, there's still the point of being able to get Slav Warriors from a fort in Bohemia, and the larger size for garrison duty. A small urban militia garrison is often not enough, expecially if you've just conquered Pomerania, for instance.

Note that the HRE starts with quite a few urban militia, scattered in garrisons all over the map. At the very least, Slav warriors could take over garrison duties in the provinces, freeing up more militia.

Finally, there is the factor of speed. The extra $7 buys you some fast flanking movement, too.

[katank]

Slavs are great garrison as people already mentionned.

I do like the speed also. catching all routed infantry opponents is quite attractive.

flanking and rear attacks allow you to exploit the nice 5 charge they have and UM don't have that.

UM can't beat archers easily in the open but slavs eat em for dinner.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 12 2004,12:40)]UM can't beat archers easily in the open but slavs eat em for dinner.
Right. That's because of the speed, land because the Slavs have a shield. Having a bigger unit doesn't hurt, either.

[Bhruic]

Still don't see the point of Slav Warriors tho'. Slav Javs are just as fast, and have the added advantage of, well, having javelins. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Personally, I find that a nice mixture of UM + Slav Javs will win the day in early-Early. I sometimes go with a unit or two of spearmen, even in forests, for the "holding power". In straight fights, UMs have a tendancy to crumple. But the few times I've made SWs (for anything other than garrison duty), they've been decidedly sub-par in performance.

Bh

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ May 12 2004,11:57)]However, there's still the point of being able to get Slav Warriors from a fort in Bohemia, and the larger size for garrison duty. A small urban militia garrison is often not enough, expecially if you've just conquered Pomerania, for instance.
True, I frequently use slav units for garrison duty myself. Nevertheless, at times i prefer not to garrison provinces at all (internal ones): at the start of an HRE campaign a few rebellions here and there can be a blessing actually :) After all: you get to confiscate the rebel lands after you've poped up your valor a bit chasing them off the field.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ May 12 2004,12:49)]
Quote[/b] (katank @ May 12 2004,12:40)]UM can't beat archers easily in the open but slavs eat em for dinner.
Right. That's because of the speed, land because the Slavs have a shield. Having a bigger unit doesn't hurt, either.
hehehe, i never even try taking on missile units in the open, unless i have cavalry or other archers. my hordes of urban militia await patiently for those pesky archers in the bushes ;)

ok, not so patiently, since i press CTRL-T to speed up their advance and ultimate doom once they've run out of arrows shooting off leaves from the trees ;)

[mfberg]

Just think of them as fast, slightly upgraded peasants and use them accordingly. Their size makes it easier for your units to hold their ground (harder to outnumber). Just put them behind the archers in a thin line, then chase routers.

Forest fighting is wonderful in the with 2 units of woodsmen flanking and 1 slav warrior center. Chopped a HA and 2 RK to bits the other day when they went into the forest looking for my men.

mfberg

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Bhruic @ May 12 2004,14:32)]Still don't see the point of Slav Warriors tho'. Slav Javs are just as fast, and have the added advantage of, well, having javelins. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Very true for flanking, but then there's the rout and pursuit to consider.

You need speed and at least some melee power for effective pursuit. Units don't just give up when you catch them. There is limited resistance.

Militia have the melee power but not the speed. Slav Javs have the speed but not the melee power.

A unit of urban militia is supported by Slav Javs. The enemy infantry routs. Most of the survivors get away.

A unit of Slav Warriors is supported by Slav Javs. The enemy infantry routs. Many more prisoners are taken because the warriors are faster.

[katank]

yep, most early rabble are easy to rout and hence pursuit is the chance to deal out hefty damage so they don't come back to haunt you later.

However, since people are talking about fighting cav, then even SWs have little chances of catching them.

In most cases I prefer SW+javs to kill/capture routed enemy inf. while if only fighting RKs etc. I go with UM+javs.

[Bhruic]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ May 11 2004,16:20)]A unit of urban militia is supported by Slav Javs. The enemy infantry routs. Most of the survivors get away.

A unit of Slav Warriors is supported by Slav Javs. The enemy infantry routs. Many more prisoners are taken because the warriors are faster.
Actually, I think it'd be more like:

A unit of Slav Warriors is supported by Slav Javs. The Slav Warriors are routed, and flee the field, followed closely by the Slav Javs. Luckily, they are fast enough to get away. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

The only situation where the SW are preferable is vs Archers, because they have shields, and can chase the Archers faster. In all other situations, the UM are going to be superior (during the actual combat phase). Personally, I'd rather have a better chance of winning the fight than a better chance of taking more prisoners when I win.

Of course, you are right, florins being not a factor, there's no reason not to make a unit or two while the Town Watch is being constructed. And they make good garrison units once the UMs are up.

Bh

[katank]

well, they both go down to a cav charge and I see more percentage of slavs surviving.

UM have trash morale also.

UM actually have less balanced stats than SW who are 0 attack, 0 defense and with 5 charge.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 12 2004,17:52)]well, they both go down to a cav charge and I see more percentage of slavs surviving.

UM have trash morale also.

UM actually have less balanced stats than SW who are 0 attack, 0 defense and with 5 charge.
mmm, the last i read, SW's stats were:

CHR: 5, ATK: 0, DEF: -2, UPKEEP: 37

as a contrast, for UM:

CHR: 4, ATK: 2 (ARMOR PIERCING), DEF -1, UPKEEP: 30

still better MS:

CHR: 4, ATK: 2 (ARMOR PIERCING), DEF 3, UPKEEP: 30

[LordKhaine]

When I played as the HRE, I took Italy first. The upside is that Italy is easy to take and you can push them off the mainland without wiping out their faction (so it can't pop up again). And once you have the Italian mainland provinces, you have a nice defensive border and a well advanced province. And best of all you're in a position to get a fleet going in the mediterranean, which can bring in a ton of cash.

[Doug-Thompson]

Cute, Bhuric, but you do raise a point. Slav warriors can live to fight another day.

Like they say in the Army: There are no bad troops. Only bad officers.

(Obviously, nobody in the Army ever has to fight with peasants.)

===============

Two provinces are next to each other. Neither has structures.

Player 1 builds a fort and one unit of Slav warriors. Total time: five years. Total cost: 500 florins.

Player 2 builds a fort, one unit of peasants so he won't be completely defenseless while his town watch is being built, and get's invaded by by Player 1 on the fifth year, before his town watch is finished.

Total time: five years. Total cost: 700 florins. And he loses. Meanwhile, Player 1 spent his the difference of 200 florins on another 200 Slav Warriors.

Nobody's denying that urban militia have better stats. The reason katank and me -- the original "Blitz Brothers" -- like Slav Warriors is because we like to blitz. We'd rather have enough troops right now than more than enough troops three years later.

===============

I'm somewhat confused on one point: Why where the stats for militia sergeants quoted? If urban militia could be upgraded to militia sergeants someday, that would make sense. But they can't. So, what am I missing here?

[motorhead]

Quote[/b] ]mmm, the last i read, SW's stats were:

CHR: 5, ATK: 0, DEF: -2, UPKEEP: 37

as a contrast, for UM:

CHR: 4, ATK: 2 (ARMOR PIERCING), DEF -1, UPKEEP: 30


mmm, last i checked, slav warriors have large shields, so their real stats are:
CH: 5, ATK: 0, DEF: 0 (-2 + 2 lg shield), ARM: 3 (1 +2 lg shield)

Also, despite their picture, SWs are considered sword units within the game, so no supporting ranks or bonus vs cav, but swords do get a bonus vs spears/pikes.

[Bhruic]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ May 11 2004,21:22)]Nobody's denying that urban militia have better stats. The reason katank and me -- the original "Blitz Brothers" -- like Jav Warriors is because we like to blitz. We'd rather have enough troops right now than better troops three years later.
Considering that I ended my post with just that scenario, I don't think you really need to argue the point to me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I'm only a fan of "limited" rushing, which generally means I mainly use the units I start with. So the construction time of SW vs UM isn't a big issue. It's the same thing with me never producing peasants.

But the reason I brought up the stats of SW vs UM is because of the original poster's question. Personally, I'd rather be defending with UM + SJ than SW + SJ. As the build time isn't really a factor here, it would seem to negate the advantage of the SW. But everyone has their own preferences.

Bh

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Bhruic @ May 12 2004,22:02)]Considering that I ended my post with just that scenario, I don't think you really need to argue the point to me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
That's fair. Sorry, Bhruic


Quote[/b] ]I'm only a fan of "limited" rushing, which generally means I mainly use the units I start with. So the construction time of SW vs UM isn't a big issue. It's the same thing with me never producing peasants.

Come to the Dark Side, young Skywalker. (What, no Darth Vader emoticon? Somebody fix that. Oh well.) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-devil.gif


Quote[/b] ]But the reason I brought up the stats of SW vs UM is because of the original poster's question. Personally, I'd rather be defending with UM + SJ than SW + SJ. As the build time isn't really a factor here, it would seem to negate the advantage of the SW. But everyone has their own preferences.

I prefer Janissary Heavy Infantry backed up by fully upgraded Futawwas, myself.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sultan.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

BTW when talking abot HRE/early/expert...

Do you prefer Husacerl or Swabian Swordsman, or do you use them both?

I personally have a weak point for those Swabians.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ May 12 2004,20:22)]Nobody's denying that urban militia have better stats. The reason katank and me -- the original "Blitz Brothers" -- like Slav Warriors is because we like to blitz. We'd rather have enough troops right now than more than enough troops three years later.
eee, hehehehe, this explains a lot. my note about use of UM and MS was a suggestion for a 'defensive' HRE approach: i.e., build up, save money and crush them neighbors later :)

i personally, like to savour those forest battles of my heroic militia against hordes of french royals and hobilars :) but that's a personal preference. was i going for a blitz, i'd use anything at my displosal: including peasants, which serve as excellent baits to lur out enemy units for my king to crush http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ May 13 2004,08:14)]BTW when talking abot HRE/early/expert...

Do you prefer Husacerl or Swabian Swordsman, or do you use them both?
Huscarles: No castle needed, elite, better morale, somewhat better defense.

Higher per-unit cost, though.

[katank]

@doug, original blitz brothers, lol.

he should also join the dark side of pure rush.

I did try a defensive HRE campaign with PseRamsess recently and enjoyed it.

Slavs are equally good in my opinion just due the larger unit size.

also, they are ideal autocalc units as they have far better stats than peasants, better stats and even cheaper than vanilla spears

[Oleander Ardens]

I suspected that you would say that Doug http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I too use them for the second wave blitz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. But I love the Swabians for their non-Elite status and the fact that the gain faster valor, while having a +1 attack against spears/pikes...

And the weaker moral isn't usually a disadvantage as they don't rout when I play them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

But after all I already use Husacerls with the English, the French, the Danes, the Poles, the Hungarians, Nowograd... some change is nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Bhruic]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 12 2004,11:35)]also, they are ideal autocalc units as they have far better stats than peasants, better stats and even cheaper than vanilla spears
I assume you mean better stats before taking rank bonuses into consideration? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

(and even then, I think it's arguable whether 0/-2 is 'better' than -1/-1)

Bh

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Bhruic @ May 13 2004,14:18)]
Quote[/b] (katank @ May 12 2004,11:35)]also, they are ideal autocalc units as they have far better stats than peasants, better stats and even cheaper than vanilla spears
I assume you mean better stats before taking rank bonuses into consideration? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

(and even then, I think it's arguable whether 0/-2 is 'better' than -1/-1)

Bh
-1/-1 for spears is for anything other than cavalry. against cavalry they should be better than slavs :)

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 13 2004,10:35)]he should also join the dark side of pure rush.
well, i've tried that too ;) especially, with the turkish: rush your initial units into Tripoli - bang, egyptians retreat leaving their sultan in Antioch. next turn: you take antioch (can use even a couple spears to do the job) and you've got 10,000 or so ransom :))) just make sure you don't kill the guy. a couple more turns and you are in egypt before even finishing a fort... :) just keep pumping out them horse archers from rum :)))

[katank]

well, slavs do get large shield and are faster.

against noncav, they do better.

they have lower build reqs and cost only 2/3 of spears.

therefore, slav warrior > vanilla spear http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

I love swabians too.

I can't say that they do better than huscarles really but they are an unique HRE build.

they are quite powerful when you get some armor for them and then they are just about similar to huscarles.

I had Henry the Lion as a Swabian sword and it just felt right considering that he was the duke of swabia.

Soon, I was swabbie rushing in battles. It's a lot less microing and quite refreshing to just have a pack of 16 silver armored swabians charging down hill into a bunch of rabble and just see them crumble with next to no damage to my swabbies. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

too bad both are only early units. otherwise, I would have an excuse to comepletely prefer one over another.

[John86]

Im playing as HRE right now. I have a good economy where i make about 2000 each turn. What i did in the beginning was:
Wait for 4 years until all forts all built.
Build lots of spearmen at switzerland.

After this i rushed france, denmark, and the aragonesse.
i captured many, this helped me maintain a good economy to continue my campaign. The only long term bad effect is that im at war with 7 different factions.

[katank]

Why Aragonese?

taking Ile De france and champagne as well as flanders is more than enough to ransom french king and cripple the country.

taking toulouse would autocease fire with French.

English seem programmed to go for Flanders just as Aragonese for Toulouse.

still, I wouldn't normally touch Toulouse as that makes my border waaaay too long.

I like to hit Italy though.

taking their lands and then drive into Rome, starve Popsesta until no longer threat then move out and taking Naples woudl yield an essentially 2 province border down from four and give some nice lands.

taking Danish would also not increase border count.

if taking out Huns, take Poland too but I would recommend that for later.

I woudl go with Italians, Danish, French, Huns, Poles. I would normally sit back and build after finsihed with French.