Elephant tactics

[Dwimmerlaik]

Does anyone know how battle elephants were used tactically in cultures other than the Carthaginians? I imagine that there would have a been an extensive body of military lore, in India for example, about the deployment and use of elephants in battle.

I ask because there is surely more to the use of elephants than wind them up, charge them into heavy infantry and let them stomp at will...Effective, but can be countered as Alexander did at the battle of Hydaspes against King Porus. I imagine that one can think up a role for elephants somewhat akin to mechanised infantry tactics - close support from tanks, etc.

Any ideas? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[squippy]

Elephants have a really mixed reputation in the classical sources. While they were battle winning weapons if used correctly, they had fragile morale.

The only other use for elephants I'm familiar with is that of mobile archery tower. But their claim to fame was the shock charge. I also think you overestimate the ease with which elephants can be countered; that was a realtively rare event and took a lot of daring. Any technique can be countered, as was the phalanx.

[Kommodus]

Ok, I understand why elephants were effective against cavalry, but were they really that effective in shock charges against heavy infantry? Can anyone give an example of a historical battle in which they were used effectively this way? I'm having some trouble looking up the information on the internet.

I guess I don't see why heavy infantry would be any less effective against elephants than light infantry. Wouldn't it be difficult to get an elephant to charge into, say, a pike phalanx? And even if you could get the elephant to charge, wouldn't pikes be just as effective, if not more so, than javelins?

I suppose that if the heavy infantry was in a tightly packed formation, the men would have a difficult time avoiding being trampled. (This is assuming you could actually get the elphant to charge.) Nevertheless, it would seem to me that a few good stab wounds would cause the elephant to flee before it could do significant damage.

I also realize that war elephants would be a terrifying sight in ancient warfare, so perhaps they could get men to flee without actually having to engage in combat. However, if they did have to actually fight, it seems that countering them would be all too easy. If the human riders could be disabled (perhaps by a simple shower of arrows), the elephant would be out of control. Similarly, if the elephant was wounded or frightened, it would be rendered useless.

Maybe I'm missing something here. Can anyone enlighten me?

[The Wizard]

Is it not logical that a brave, loosely formated, speedy unit of light infantry is more effective against elephants than a (usually) tightly packed, slow-moving unit of heavy infantry?

Elephants weren't the super-heavy killing machines that many people see in them; they weren't really the ancient age's tanks. What they were useful for was breaking open a unit, including a forest of pikes. The foot companions in Alexander's army weren't the most important infantry in his army; those were the shield bearers. The moment a phalanx of foot companions breaks up, even in a single place of the formation, it's extremely vulnerable for a follow-up attack. And that is what elephants were for.

The classic Marian legionary combined light and heavy infantry, and had a great mobility and versatility on the battlefield; they could take on attacks from almost every direction. Plus they had discipline. A few pila in the elephants, and it was over. Manipular legions had the problem that they were citizen armies, and thus that their soldiers were not perfectly disciplined. The (to the Romans) huge elephants of Hannibal scared them to such a degree that they ran when these went through their formations. That was all Hannibal needed, for then he could send his cavalry in to finish the job: to kill them.



~Wiz

[Kommodus]

So, then, elephants don't cause a lot of casualties by themselves, but rather break the enemy heavy infantry formations so that they can be attacked by other troops? That makes some sense, although I'm still not sure how an elephant could penetrate all those rows of pikes if it went up against a phalanx. (Of course, that would be a different story if elephants attacked the flanks or rear of the phalanx, but that would seem like a difficult maneuver.)

It's just that in Time Commanders and other videos, I see what looks like elephants rampaging through heavy infantry formations and not only breaking them up, but causing huge numbers of casualties as they trample men and hurl them through the air. I wouldn't think the elephant itself would be such a powerful weapon. After all, how would you train it to kill men so effectively? By nature, I don't think it would want to or see a reason to.

[Dwimmerlaik]

As a short footnote to this most intriguing discussion, I have seen one other use for elephants in the new Gamespot trailer: sieges. They have a very short clip of a Carthaginian siege of a Roman city, and you can almost see the look of shock on the faces of the Roman troops as the city gates fly open to let in a group of war elephantshttp://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif (I wonder if the elephants were used to batter down the gates, coz they charged in mighty quick)

But back to the point, I do realise that elephants could be prickly beasts on the battlefield, but I still wonder how the armies of India or the Thai kingdom used them in battle. I would love to read some sources on that if there are any.

If it does turn out that their use was against cavalry, against tight infantry formations and as mobile archery towers, then I will rest my case - besides, their value in sieges has just become very apparent http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (Kommodus @ May 11 2004,15:41)]So, then, elephants don't cause a lot of casualties by themselves, but rather break the enemy heavy infantry formations so that they can be attacked by other troops? That makes some sense, although I'm still not sure how an elephant could penetrate all those rows of pikes if it went up against a phalanx. (Of course, that would be a different story if elephants attacked the flanks or rear of the phalanx, but that would seem like a difficult maneuver.)

It's just that in Time Commanders and other videos, I see what looks like elephants rampaging through heavy infantry formations and not only breaking them up, but causing huge numbers of casualties as they trample men and hurl them through the air. I wouldn't think the elephant itself would be such a powerful weapon. After all, how would you train it to kill men so effectively? By nature, I don't think it would want to or see a reason to.
Look at it this way.

With a couple tons of mighty pissed off pachyderm thundering straight at you, it takes a mighty amount of bravery and discipline to stay on your spot. Or perhaps greater fear for the consequences of dropping your pike and running.

Even behind a forest of pikes this must have been a frightening sight to behold, and it is a testimony to the discipline of Alexander's foot companions that they remained in place.

Also, I would imagine that if the elephant's legs would be properly armoured, its size and speed could help it to smash right through the pikes and break them like twigs... then the phalanx would have huge problems, with its greatest weapon annex protection, the forest of pikes, gone... if a unit of swordsmen, be they light or heavy, got in then, it would be over for the foot companions.



~Wiz

[Kommodus]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ May 11 2004,09:55)]Even behind a forest of pikes this must have been a frightening sight to behold, and it is a testimony to the discipline of Alexander's foot companions that they remained in place.

Also, I would imagine that if the elephant's legs would be properly armoured, its size and speed could help it to smash right through the pikes and break them like twigs... then the phalanx would have huge problems, with its greatest weapon annex protection, the forest of pikes, gone... if a unit of swordsmen, be they light or heavy, got in then, it would be over for the foot companions.
This may be true for some pikemen, but not for Alexander's foot companions. Although losing their pikes would certainly placed them on more equal terms with their enemies, they had a short sword and were probably very skilled in using it. Their armor and training would surely have helped them keep an edge over their enemies, although not as big of an edge.

And I agree that a well-armoured elephant would certainly have had a serious edge. Not only would pikes be splintered by the force of the charge, the elephant itself would be much harder to wound and therefore more difficult to rout. However, I'm not sure how many war elephants were actually armoured.

I'm still wondering if anyone is aware of an actual historical battle in which war elephants were used successfully in a shock charge against infantry (particularly heavy infantry).

[Kraxis]

Kommadus, I believe the main battle of the 1st Punic War (the one in Africa) had the elephants trample right over the romans. Then there was the three Phyrrus battles where the elephants, at least in the first, penetrated the roman lines. Finally there are Trebbia.

While I have heard of no accounts of fully armoured elephants (like the RTW ones we have seen a few times) I have heard of the Indians putting bands of bronze on the legs. This of course could be decoration but it seems not to be since they were warelephants.

You are right of course with the foot companions, they were accomplished swordsmen, unlike later phalangites. In fact their sword was a bit longer than the classical greek hoplites' swords. The reason for this could be that there hadn't yet been established specialized corps, so the phalangites had to be able to help in taking cities and so on.

[The Wizard]

Oh no, that is not true.

In his acclaimed book Alexander the Great, Robin Lane Fox states that the typical foot companion was armed in differing armor (depending on his position in the formation, money, etc.). This could be linen armor, a bronze breastplate, or nothing at all, which was usually the case with foot companions further back into the formation. A foot companion was armed with a pike, a shield slung over his shoulder onto his upper arm, and nothing else for protection in the case of a broken pike, or something else that was bad, but a dagger on his leg. That was all.

Moreover, a phalanx of foot companions was one with brittle shock power. It was only truly efficient when it could follow up on a succesful charge by the companions. It wasn't, like most believe, a formation that goes into the meatgrinder and wins. It needed to get up to a unit only very previously attacked by the companions to attack, or face problems. Over hard ground it was next to useless, because it could break up easily, and then it was very vulnerable. A phalanx of foot companions was indeed a very specific unit, that had to be well-commanded and managed to be of any use on the battlefield.

The men that really mattered were the shield bearers, who were quicker, more mobile, had a less brittle formation, and were more effective in a melee. They also served as Alexander's 'commandos', carrying out missions by night and infiltrations. And, of course, they protected the extremely vulnerable flanks of the foot companion phalanx.



~Wiz

[Kommodus]

Wow, I had no idea that Alexander's pike phalanx was so vulnerable; it's a wonder the formation didn't break more often. That's not at all how it's depicted on Time Commanders at the Battle of Gaugamela - it goes right at the Persian army and grinds it into dust (although it is only up against peasants).

Nevertheless, wasn't Alexander's frequent tactic to fix the enemy with his phalanx, then strike the flank with his Companion Cavalry? Wiz, you said:


Quote[/b] ]
It was only truly efficient when it could follow up on a succesful charge by the companions. It wasn't, like most believe, a formation that goes into the meatgrinder and wins. It needed to get up to a unit only very previously attacked by the companions to attack, or face problems.


I thought it would be the other way around - first attack with the infantry, then follow up with the cavalry.

I would also like to know more about the "shield bearers". That name doesn't sound too intimidating; they sound more more like support troops than elite fighters. What was their weaponry and training like?

BTW, Kraxis, thanks for the info. It helped me track down the Battle of Bagradas in 255 BC, in which Carthagian elephants broke formations of tightly-packed Roman troops. This led to the destruction of the Roman army. I guess elephants could be devastatingly effective; however, this required serious incompetence on the part of the Roman general.

[The Wizard]

Don't get me wrong - I don't expect the phalanx to be far behind the cavalry. But it is stated quite clearly that the phalanx was the follow-up to the companion charge, coming in quickly after it charged into a gap in the enemy lines to exploit it.

That is the ideal situation of a cavalry charge: the cavalry goes in and exploits a gap in the enemy lines, forcing them apart and breaking the formation of the enemy army, after which the main infantry body comes in and exploits the damage wreaked by the cavalry. Only a supported cavalry charge can work. The same goes for an elephant charge.

The shield bearers are also known as the 'hypaspists'. They number at 3000, and 1000 of their men form the infantry part of the King's Agema, the royal guard, and are thus called royal shield bearers. They are armored in a bronze breastplate, linen cuirass, or sometimes no armor at all. They are armed with a hoplon, spear, falcata (the real Macedonian melee sword), and are trained to fight as a fast unit, that forms the link between foot companions and companions, so that the enemy cannot exploit that gap (seeing as foot companions are relatively slow due to their formation, and companions need to be fast). They were also used in infiltration and night missions. For instance, it was the shield bearers that captured the mighty mountain fortress of Pir-Sar in the Hindu Kush.

Battle of Hydaspes:

http://www.war-art.com/images/dhm1174.jpghttp://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/Images/2111/hydaspes.jpg

The first pic gives a reasonable depiction of a foot companion charge... as you see, it goes at an ambling pace.

The second one shows the defence against the elephants... as you see, they were big luggers.



~Wiz

[The Wizard]

Here, observe a very interesting article on elephant warfare in the ancient age:

http://www.clickfire.com/viewpoints/articles/political/elephants.php

Thanks to Falx http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif



~Wiz

[Trax]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
I have nothing do do with this link, you must have confused me with somebody.

[The Wizard]

Gah It was Falx. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif



~Wiz

[The_Emperor]

Yes I have read about those battles of the First Punic War, very interesting...

Basically the main thing about Elephants is the fear factor they inspire in troops, you get several tons of Elephant stampeding towards you, your not going to want to Hold Position

The Romans were decimated by the carthaginian Elephants in that battle that has already been mentioned of the First Punic War. It was the first time they came up agaisnt those beasts and it really terrified them.

Following that initial defeat the Romans had a great fear of the Carthanginian War Elephants... The next time they fought them they focused everything on countering the threat posed by the War Elelphants, the Romans defended their position with a slight mount and ditch with Light forces and missile troops at the very front of their lines.

When the Carthaginian Elephants charged the Romans responded with Arrow fire, and volleys of Javelins. The Elephants of course run amok and crashed back through the Carthaginian lines...

At that point the morale weakness became clear.

[Saki]

Just seen a documentry called "Alexanders Footsteps" shown on BBC 4 here in the UK.

This paticular episode was about his push in to India.There was little about elephants except towards the end of the docu were he faced off against a sizable army containg 200 nelly's.It was a bit vague but it said that Alexanders men targeted the nelly's eyes causing them to run amok killing both friend and foe.

[Dwimmerlaik]

As I feared, this thread's turned into the usual Carthaginian-Roman-Macedonian watercooler debate..Not that I have anything against the aforementioned, but I was hoping for more... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

I guess it's off to the library for me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Hakonarson]

Bagradas was not the first tiem the Romans had fought against elephants - that was against Phyruss 20 years before hand.

Basically there were a couple of ways of using elephants - shuolder to shoulder for a massed charge, or spread apart, usually with a lot of light infantry about, as a screen against superior enemy cavalry.

Poros's formation at Hydaspes was neither - he spread them out and then charged them in

Later Indian and other Eastern armies often massed them for a charge, but then were not usually (or ever) facing good heavy infantry. the Hellenistic tradition was more one of spreading them out to counter cavalry.

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (Dwimmerlaik @ May 11 2004,23:54)]As I feared, this thread's turned into the usual Carthaginian-Roman-Macedonian watercooler debate..Not that I have anything against the aforementioned, but I was hoping for more... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

I guess it's off to the library for me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Could you specify the problem here ..?



~Wiz

[Hakonarson]

Here's a couple of articles on Elephants:

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/DBMTroopTypes.html#El - a discussion on classifying elephants for the DBM ancient figure gaming set - it may be a bit difficult to read for those not familiar with DBM, but I think there's some interesting info in there.

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/Al-Ele.html - the Elephants of Alexander the Great - discussing whether Alex had Elephants, why he did or didn't use them and what happened to them under his successors.

[Kongamato]

Here is "Elephant Tactic"

Kill Elephant. Roll Elephant on back.

Cut Elephant's belly open.

Spend all day enjoying your new hot tub.

GAH