Openings for the Byzantines?

[Ulair]

Hi folks,

Started playing the Byzantines in Early the other day and it struck me that I started in a way I'd never seen the AI do (in my huge experience of, er, half-a-dozen assorted campaigns).

The AI always seems to go north into the central European plain and the steppes, finishing up in that well-known Greek haven of, er, Lithuania. It seemed much more natural for me to go east - crushing the Turks - then south - crushing the Egyptians. This I did, and with the Byzantine killer generals/Byz infantry/horsearchers and a stack of mercs it was easy. It's now 1119, the Turks and Egyptians are no more, I own the eastern Med with all its riches and now I'll just sit back, pump out ships and tech up.

Is this what most folks do, and why wasn't the AI coded to do it? It seems the natural way to expand.

Oh, and then there was the Sicilian invasion of Naples gloriously beaten back by one company of Byz infantry, two of peasants and a badly-mismanaged unit of Naphtha who got a kicking but became a great decoy, drawing off a company of Sicilian spearmen on a wild goose chase http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . I now own Sicily, too, and they've retreated to Malta.

Cheers,
Ulair

[Doug-Thompson]

The AI usually takes the path of least resistance.

Funny you should ask about Byz opening, though.

I abandoned Naples and invaded Sicily with the whole Naples garrison on the first turn last night.

I, too, like to kill the Turks and invade Egypt. That leaves the problem of what to do with Naples, which is both a bother and and expense to hold. There was a long thread on defending Naples recently.

My invaders found 100 Sicilian spears and a keep. The spears retreated into the keep and I ordered an assault.

I was just messing around, trying out new starts, so I auto-resolved the assault -- and won. Got the "skilled attacker" virtue, too. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_knight.gif

A loyalist rebellion was brewing by now, of course, so I couldn't hold the province -- so I deleted the keep and all other structures.

My army defeated the first round of loyalists, then the few survivors of the second round were ransomed for a pittance. I rebuilt the Byz infantry unit at Constantinople and sent it off happily to join the real war in the east.

Was this a fluke? I started a new game and did it again, with the same results except that there was only one round of combat with Sicilian loyalists and my general got the "skilled assaulter" and "captured" traits.

================

The way I figure it, it's going to take the Sicilians at least 12 years to build a fort and a keep in Sicily, just to get back where there were.

There aren't going to be any ships built in Sicily for a long time. The Turks are already beaten, and the Egyptians are next.

By the time the Sicilians are back on their feet, I'm going to have Serbia and a port there, a ship in the Adriatic, enough troops to cross back over into Naples and a big enough head start that my naval dominance of the Mediterranean is assured.

Hopefully, the Italians or the Papal States won't be the new owners when I get back to Naples. Then I'll march on and conquer Sicily in a proper fashion. The Sicilians can sit and rot on Malta for the rest of the game.

[mfberg]

Taking out the turks and egypt is important, but now you are the major crusade target. Make sure you have all of the sea lanes covered, and a readily accessible crusade blocking army, and crank out emissaries and Syrian assasins. As Byz buying your enemies is almost as much fun as beating them with the Kats.

There are some good starting strategies in the guides.

mfberg

[Ulair]

I wasn't sure what to do with Naples so I just sat there, built towers, 20% farmland and a fort and trained a few peasants. It wasn't until I'd done all that ('bout 1100?) that the Sicilians attacked, although I'm only playing Normal so maybe that delayed them.

In defending, I discovered how useful careful flank charges by peasants can be against spearmen pinned by my Byz infantry. Routed a couple of Sicilian spearmen like that and they all gave in (and them with a 4* against my 1*, too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ).

Poor ship placement by the AI let me bus in Prince Andronicus and a stack of infantry and horse archers to Sicily within a turn or two and now, as you say, after a hefty ransom for King Roger and the Byzantine flag flying above Palermo castle, let 'em rot in Malta and be force-fed my exports http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif .

Oh, I just discovered the new Guides sections with everything I wanted to know about the Byz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif . Ah, well

Cheers,
Ulair

[Ulair]

Quote[/b] (mfberg @ May 12 2004,15:33)]Taking out the turks and egypt is important, but now you are the major crusade target.

Yeah, no fair - I'm Christian, dammit, the original and best http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . Why can't the Patriarch of Constantinople call an Orthodox crusade against those schismatic heretics in Rome...

[Doug-Thompson]

Defending Naples might be worth it if all you had to do was defend Naples.

The trouble is that the Sicilians are a naval faction. By the time they attack Naples, they have several ships you have to hunt down and kill. They impede your control of the sea.

Naval wars are expensive, both in straight florin costs and in the years where some province is tied up building just one fleet.

[katank]

raiding Sicily is a nice idea.

I usually manage to crank up a fort and then keep putting down rebellions and this builds up my general very well.

I then hit Sicily and establish naval dominance to isloate them on Malta.

what you say makes lots of sense though and I would definitely try to do that next time.

can't resist new byz campaign now. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 12 2004,12:35)]raiding Sicily is a nice idea.

I usually manage to crank up a fort and then keep putting down rebellions and this builds up my general very well.

I then hit Sicily and establish naval dominance to isloate them on Malta.

what you say makes lots of sense though and I would definitely try to do that next time.

can't resist new byz campaign now. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I knew you'd like that one, "Mr. Blitz." http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh.gif

No joke: My first thought when I took the keep last night was, "Whoa. Katank's going to love this." Enjoy.



http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[katank]

lol, thanks.

yep.

I've just been held back the fact that I usually play GA and didn't want to abandon that homeland point.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Ulair @ May 12 2004,09:50)]Yeah, no fair - I'm Christian, dammit, the original and best http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . Why can't the Patriarch of Constantinople call an Orthodox crusade against those schismatic heretics in Rome...

The short, real answer is probably play balance, but there is a real-world reason too.

Catholics believe that fighting and killing in a just war is not a sin. So the Pope can call for Holy War.

In Orthodox Christianity, the dogma is that killing is a sin -- period -- but that soldiers can be absolved of that sin pretty easily.

However, that seemingly over-subtle difference means that the Patriarch can't summon Christian soldiers into a "Holy War" since no war is holy by Orthodox definitions.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy.gif

[katank]

anyone have an idea on how we might be able to create orthodox crusades?

maybe make them 3 years and 750 florins and launchable only at provinces predominantly orthodox?

[Doug-Thompson]

He-he. Captured the Egyptian Sultan three times in less than 10 years last night, and never got less that 8,800 florins for him.

The first time was using a delayed version of Katank's Turk Blitz after replacing the Turks in Syria and everywhere else. Got $9.9K for him.

The second time, the fool left the relative safety of the Sinai to attack Syria through Arabia, and left Arabia almost undefended. I moved a single unit into Arabia to block his retreat, although I had to give the province up since I had no troops for garrison. Another $+9K rolls in.

I was stretched very thin among some low-happiness provinces after all this blitzing, so I waited for some grudging acceptance of Byzantine rule to soak in. Then it was on through the Sinai to Egypt.

I assaulted the Egyptian fort to finish off the sultan -- and he was ransomed again, this time going to Arabia, which was then garrisoned by 15 camels and the ransomed prisoners.

Deep in debt after shelling out about $28K in ransom and with nothing left but Arabia. Poor guy.

The only sour note is that I didn't get back to Naples in time after my "Sicily banzai" opening. The Italians took it over, and I don't want war with them right now. I did grab Serbia, though.

The Sicilians, by the way, have not been a problem. I've seen one Sicilian fleet since tearing them up in the opening, and it was on a reconnaissance mission, apparently. It sailed around with the only apparent purpose of seeing who owned what.

It saw a lot of purple.

[katank]

lots of purple http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

I always use my delayed blitz for Byz too.

I always try to get kill the Turks very fast in order to still have the Eggy sultan in the compromising position of Antioch.

My concern with Naples is also Italians

I remembered in my Italian game I grabbed Naples fast before wiping the Sicilians off the face of the earth while also taking Serbia.

Guess the AI thinks the same way.

I suggest you just get naval dominance in Adriatic and overrun them by pouring through Venice.

that's their only ship producer and they can't retaliate that well.

using pure dromons should destroy their galley forces.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 13 2004,10:27)]I suggest you just get naval dominance in Adriatic and overrun them by pouring through Venice.

that's their only ship producer and they can't retaliate that well.
Yeah, I could do that now and probably should.

After getting $28K in ransom, I can pretty much do whatever I want.

To stay on the thread's theme, I like the "Turk-Egypt Blitz" opening with the "Sicilian Banzai" option. The Turks don't stand a chance. Their horse archers are outshot by Trebizond Archers and their vanilla spears are helpless against Byz Infantry.

You lose Naples but cripple the Sicilians.

The fact that your Sicilian blitzers are ransomed back to you in time to rebuild them and get them into the Egyptian fight is significant.

Egypt is just a joke if you get to it early enough. Their peasants don't stand a chance. Trebizonds do a number on camels, too. And there's always the chance at a king's ransom.

Slav Warriors and Slav javs, plus a few HA, are more than enough to guard Greece and Bulgaria and pick up Serbia, too. I could have taken Moldavia, also.

The biggest annoyance was the low happiness levels of the island provinces: Crete, Rhodes and Cyprus.

I didn't want to just let them rebel because I wanted the keep building keeps and then shipbuilders there. Constantinople is too valuable for Byz Inf to tie up with shipbuilding.

However, I was stuck making three ships and a port in Lesser Armenia just to get the islands in contact with the rest of the empire to improve their loyalty, and to allow the shifting of peasant troops between them to avoid revolts.

Man, they are a pain.

[katank]

I don't try to go for ships at all.

I just go for the towers ASAP and then town watch.

I managed to get them all to keep before two rebelled.

By then, my rush was over and I switched from byz inf to ships and got 2 ships out which was enough to let my katank prince shuttle back and forth between islands to put down the uppity rebels.

I was although thumping out peasants and it was decent enough.

A single Byz inf is enough to cover Bulgaria and Greece until forts come on line.

I like to spare a single byz inf to swap with the guard so the guard can go take moldavia so I get avar nobles earlier.

Also, moldavia gets you that critical mass of slav warriors that helps deter Polish and Huns from attacking.

[Doug-Thompson]

I should have pointed out that I, too, built towers, town watch and peasants. The ships came after all that.

The problem was that I wanted to get my ships over to the Adriatic ASAP to re-take Naples, and the blasted islanders kept hovering at the 107-108 loyalty range.

I know I should just make peasants, but I loathe making peasant units. Oh well.

[katank]

Well, yeah.

Adriatic only takes two dromons though.

the islanders can be safely pacified if you get them to stay quiet for 6 years usually as then you have fort, and towers as well as peasants every turn.

I know it may be degrading to use peasants but they actually make decent flankers when you use your spears to hold the enemy.

the island rebels aren't that strong usually.

[Doug-Thompson]

Turns out that the Sicilians' fate was sealed by the early attack.

Sent my emissary on a spy mission and discovered that the Sicilian ruler was on Sicily with nothing but a few units of royal knights and a bunch of militia, and that the waters around Sicily were guarded by a single fleet.

All he could build after the first-turn raid ravaging of Sicily, I suppose. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh.gif His other fleet was in the Black Sea, spying on me. Sicily had a new keep and a port.

I couldn't resist the chance at another ransom. So I attacked his fleets, hoping to clear the water around Sicily and invade.

I won the naval battle around Sicily though I lost in the Black Sea. Sicily immediately received an army of katanks and trebizonds plus a mess of Slav warriors and javelins just to make sure.

The battle was a massacre. The Sicilian king was bottled up in the keep. His heir was killed.

No ransom, but the keep fell and the Sicilians disappeared. His other fleet, which had destroyed another of my fleets, disappeared too.

This is going to be my new Byz opening. Blitz Turkey while launching a Banzai attack on Sicily. Destroy Egypt, then return and conquer Sicily, not Naples. I know Naples is a lot of points, but peace with the Italians means a lot of money through trade. I can take Naples any time I want. I figure the Italians will Crusade against me soon enough. By that time my trade income will have paid for 80 percent farm upgrades in Constantinople, Antioch, Tripoli and Egypt. Let them come.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Ulair @ May 12 2004,07:55)]It seemed much more natural for me to go east - crushing the Turks - then south - crushing the Egyptians. It's now 1119, the Turks and Egyptians are no more, I own the eastern Med with all its riches and now I'll just sit back, pump out ships and tech up. Is this what most folks do, and why wasn't the AI coded to do it? It seems the natural way to expand.
Playing the Byz I never go for the Balkans or the steppes since they are to poor compared to the mid-east which is where my aim is. Crush the Turks and Eggys as soon as I can and even take Cyrenacia from the Almos (good buffer zone to Egypt) is my primary aim.
You Sicily-blitz adds a missing key to my goal to have my borders at Cyr, Nap, Ser, Bul and Geo - thanks I usually take the Sicilians after taking the mid-east so I´m gonna try your way next time around.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ May 13 2004,10:54)][quote=katank,May 13 2004,10:27]

The biggest annoyance was the low happiness levels of the island provinces: Crete, Rhodes and Cyprus.
actually, the first thing I do with byzantines is assigning high dread governors (the highest i have, no regard for acumen) for the islands and set their taxation to the minimum. also, in the first turn, i start to build a fort in cretes (no guard tower), which later gets upgraded to a keep, then - the shipyard. the other two islands get a guard tower in the first turn and forts in the second. actually, i have never had a problem with the islands rebelling: neither on hard or expert (and I've never had to use a garrison of more than 100 men there either).

i kind of enjoy defending naples without taking sicily (for some time): i like crushing those sicilian knights with my urban militia and trebizond archers :) until my regular forces can arrive by sea a few turns down the road (actually, quite a few).

[katank]

I don't have much trouble with the islands either.

I think it was doug who brought it up.

once though, my empire experienced a bit of a loyalty drop and two islands rebelled.

they had the decency to wait until the keep was finished though and hence didn't derail my teching up much.

[Doug-Thompson]

Yeah, that was me. Not katank.

They never rebelled. I kept them under control. I just resent the bother.

[Doug-Thompson]

From another thread:


Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ May 14 2004,11:22)]A blitz into sicily and NOT DESTROYING IT, is another option. I keep Sicily, and then attack Napolese rebels with troops built in the more advanced island. If you lucky enough: you might even jump start ship building in sicily.

I wonder if you could blitz Sicily, take the keep, fight off a rebellion, build some units there and then .... take Naples back before the Italians arrive. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[Kristaps]

Well, no need to leave the Naples to Italians.

Actually, tried it again last night :) The lone Napolese byzantine infantry general in Naples at the start of Early - Cerularius should rather be called Figaro. One turn he was fighting in siciliy, the other: back in Naples fighting an uprising of unruly catholics.

Here is how it went (GA, Hard):

AD 1087 - Lord Lascaris: a scary 4 dread general becomes the king of Naples; Cerularius (the byzantine general in Naples) accepts the honors to be the Duke of Trebizond (2 command stars); construction of guard towers is started in Naples; Lord Cerularius and the napolese garrison venture into Sicily.

AD 1088. - the Sicilian spear unit retreats into the keep;
Cerularius and and his naptha throwing buddies move back into Naples to quell a catholic uprising (if no "old_rebels" are used this is quite manageable); start building border towers in Naples.

AD 1089. - Lord Cerularius earns his 3rd command star slaughtering napolese catholics; As soon as the dust settles he sets the sail back to Sicily where their king has
abandoned the island garrison all alone (the Sicilan boats have taken off for somewhere...); note that the Sicilians were not able to build anything during year 1088 since the province oficially belonged to Byzantines and there were no unit building facilities at the time in Malta; on the orders of Cerularius, fort construction is started in Naples.

AD 1090. - to the amazement of Lord Cerularius, Don Duncan Corsini has ordered his Sicilian spear garrison to defend in the woods... they get slaughtered or captured to the last man. The Sicilan keep falls with no defenders left. Despite 99% loyalty, catholics rise up again in Naples. Lord Cerularius sets his sail back to Italy. Town watch construction starts in Sicily.

AD 1991. - on the sight of Lord Cerulariu's unit marching off the ship, the Napoles catholic rebels retreat screaming like women. Lord Cerularius earns his 4th star. however, his absence has not passed unnoticed by Sicilian loyalists who do not seem threatened by the freshly recruited peasant leutenant in the keep.

AD 1992. - Lord Cerularius kills 50 loyalists, capturing 47. This does not stop the islanders from rising up again.

AD 1993. - Lord Cerularius helped by freshly recruited Sicilian militia kills 70 loyalists, captures and executes 50 more. From this point on: the populations in both Italian colonies seem to be content.

P.S. I guess, it wouldn't have gone as smoothly if (1) the Sicilians arranged their fleets correctly and got their king join the fight in Sicily, (2) the Pople had realized Naples was undergarrisoned at times... (3) the Italians had realized the same thing... (4) Lord Cerularius got rebellions in both provinces at the same time (5) old_rebels switch was used :)

[Doug-Thompson]

Excellent, Kristaps. At the very least, the defense of Naples and crippling of the Sicilians is possible.

[Nowake]

No, do not defend Naples forever. You'll eventually be defeated.


What I did was defended Naples if i could win, then gone for Rome - quite easy to defeat them if you use thunder bombers efficiently - and by now you are Skilled Attacker. You attack then Tuscany, then as far as you can go as long as the faction leader is not there. Then you make sure in one battle your general gets captured and ransom it. And there you go, a brave general and Italy ransckaed, with 1000-2000 florins from that, without counting the money for ransom.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Nowake @ May 17 2004,08:07)]No, do not defend Naples forever. You'll eventually be defeated.


What I did was defended Naples if i could win, then gone for Rome - quite easy to defeat them if you use thunder bombers efficiently - and by now you are Skilled Attacker. You attack then Tuscany, then as far as you can go as long as the faction leader is not there. Then you make sure in one battle your general gets captured and ransom it. And there you go, a brave general and Italy ransckaed, with 1000-2000 florins from that, without counting the money for ransom.
Counter-Advice: YES, do defend Naples forever (unless you're playing a TD game) - it's doable and it's fun :)

[katank]

Well, I had a problem with Sicilian loyalists the same turn as Naples rebels and briefly lost control of Naples but I was able to keep both before Italians got it for two turns but I took it back right at the GA count year

Now I get Byz inf. popping out of Sicily every turn and ship production there should also come online in about two turns.

it's 1100 BTW.

Nice strategy.

kudos to Doug and Kristaps