A new nasty trick I learned

[Oaty]

I've found a nasty little tactic that can make a castle a nice little murder pit. I let the enemy attack the castle gate and then I do a quick hit and run. I have a unit attack the unit attacking the gate then I quick retreat back in. This causes that unit to run into the castle I then wait until the unit gets far into the courtyard. Wich is when I attack from 3 sides wich quickly routes the unit and sometimes the gate will open for him and sometimes it stays shut on em. Don't know what causes the gate to open sometimes. After this the A.I. will bring all of its units up to assault the castle. Well I then wait until they attack again and I do another hit and run. This time the whole army tries to rush in but the castle gate only allows 1 unit in at a time so usually I can make piecmeal of them.

[Bezalel]

I hope Rome's AI is gonna' be better. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-zzz.gif

[CountMRVHS]

Oaty, I just did a similar tactic in my Welsh campaign and it works quite well.

All I had for fortification was a Warrior Hold with a crappy little stockade fence around it. When the Irish got uppity and decided to invade, for some reason they didn't bother trying to knock down the fence, but instead focused on the "gate" entrance.

I had 2 half-sized units of armored spearmen, a couple 1/2 units of Celtic warriors, and a total of 6 welsh bandits (not 6 units, 6 men). I kept one of the AS standing at the gate. When the Irish spearmen rushed through, my spears absorbed the shock and I rushed them from both sides with the WBs and one of the CWs. Irish routed. I realigned my forces within the walls.

They brought in more plain spearmen and kerns and a beat-up unit of mounted nobles and tried again. It took a little longer to finally break them, but it was the same result. There was just a mishmash of green irishmen all crowding into the little "gate" area, getting slaughtered by my armored spears and celts, routing through their fellow troops and causing even more panic. The Irish general - a full unit of Mounted Nobles - decided to hell with it and marched off the field. I chased the remaining routers off the field.

Granted, with the troop matchup, the AI *should* have won that assault. But it decided to concentrate everything on that little entrance, making it essentially into a bridge battle with the huge advantage in that I could flank. It was a very satisfying battle nevertheless (usually castle assaults are just hopeless for me to defend), and I gave the general the governorship of Laigin for his reward. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[katank]

yeah. the AI is kinda stupid.

in reality, they should make the walls harder to crack so assaulting the gatehouse is really the better idea even with the crazy murder holes and flanking defenders.

bridge battles are fun for same reason.

ever tried a little naptha with that?

poof and the enemy concentration magically disappears

[solypsist]

good luck with that tactic if the AI brings decent seige weapons http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Oaty]

Quote[/b] (solypsist @ May 14 2004,13:45)]good luck with that tactic if the AI brings decent seige weapons http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
That's what mounted skirmishers are for. I do lose a lot of castle battles but it is well worth it as it is a numerical victory. Of course unmodded totalwar there is little need for such tatics as losing territory is rare. Also if they breech the wall the inner keep can still be a slaughter as the enemy has to fight uphill. I do really need to mod the castle maps so that units come in from the direction the gate is because the comp is so poor at assaulting the castle they have all there troops in the wrong spot, or have them come in from the left corner as that is usually the best side for siege weapons and it would still put them at a close proximiity to the gate.

[katank]

so true oaty,

The AI may win this battle but they would lose the war.

attrition through Pyrrhic victories for your opponents is sometimes preferable to outright slugfests

[Imperial Buffoon]

Quote[/b] (oaty @ May 13 2004,20:13)]Don't know what causes the gate to open sometimes.
I may be wrong, but I think the gate only opens for your own units and will only close if there's nothing underneath.

So to avoid the gate opening, it's best not to pursue the enemy, which you can do by keeping your units in hold position and not charging. Sure, they lose a couple of bonuses but since the enemy are turning their backs it shouldn't matter.

I've actually used that against the AI although it's harder to do: put a unit very close to the gate and attack the enemy unit on the other side of the gate (crossbowmen worked I think). when the AI does a sortie (that's the hard bit, AI won't usually sally out even if you only have arty) push a sizeable number of units onto beyond the gate, a couple of them at least should get across.

Tried it a couple of times, only worked once, maybe because defenders had a lot of cavalry?

[katank]

@ imperial buffoon,

you mean use missiles on defenders by pushing the missile through the walls?

occasionally it seems some units get stuck in the walls.

is this what you are referring to?

[squippy]

I can't see why the use of this tactic is considered to be symptomatic of the AI's stupidity - this is a classice castle-defending technique. Recently, while defending my Khazar citadel against the Mongols, I was deliberately breaking them on the inner gate and then cav charging the fleeing hordes as they routed back through the outer gate and got bunched up trying to get through it. It was a real massacre.

I routinely sally out of the gates. Yes I know its risky, and I have blown my own defences wide open from time to time, but IMO preserving the gate itself is a priority. I'd much rather have the enemy assuault the gate, inflict 30% damage or so, and be driven back, then allow them to complete the destruction of the gate. As long as I control the gate, I control the initiative and much of the pace of the battle. The enemy cannot bring cheap, useless units to the gate as I will set upon them; and if they bring high value units, the missile and boiling oil take their toll.

Theres only one question I still have really, which is whether or not its worth while stationing a unit just outside a gate. I wish you could manually lock gates like you could in Cossacks. I'd like to put a unit of spears just outside the gate so the enemy has to engage them in melee before attacking the gate proper; but I expect they will break and route, causing the gate to open - thats no good.

Lastly, never ever ever ever ever lose control of the outer bailey if you have one. Stick a useless unit in the back somewhere to make sure that the outer bailey is occupied at all times so that it keeps up withering fire on enemy troops in the outer bailey after you lose the outer gate. Again, sallying from the inner bailey prevents the enemy from taking ther time to hunt down your holding unit.

[Imperial Buffoon]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 17 2004,16:15)]@ imperial buffoon,

you mean use missiles on defenders by pushing the missile through the walls?

occasionally it seems some units get stuck in the walls.

is this what you are referring to?
I meant using missiles to attack units the other side of the gate - IIRC you can't really expect to hit units the other side of the wall with archers as soon as they are behind walls (as opposed to a fence). But you'll be able to attack a unit behind the gate with arbs or xbows, and they (may) come to get you, thus opening the door.

The "pushing" bit comes once the door is opened, if you leave any space between your units then the door will close and you get what oaty was describing...in reverse.

[katank]

I see what you are saying.

@ squippy, I also like to keep a half-dead ballista crew out of the way in order to keep the outer walls occupied and often the enemy routs just from the fire alone along with well timed sallies from inner walls so that they never kill that lone unit that keeps the outer walls firing.