RedKnight
05-15-2004, 01:05
I love bridge battles. Whether attacking or defending, it's so easy to mess up the AI across bridges. (And they seemed so hard when I was a noob ... when did I go from playing a game, to playing WITH the game??, lol.) In the event it's useful to anybody, here's a full list of every possible river attack, sorted both ways - attacks TO a particular province, and attacks FROM a particular province, that will have bridges.
True, this list is pretty useless since you can see it right in the game. But it might save a little time if you would like to attack a particular province but it has like four million provinces around it, and you want to know which have rivers. (Or not if you're a noob :)). Also anybody who wants to Be All They Can Be, Know All They Can in MTW land, here's the rivers, once and for all. (Has anybody posted this before?)
Remember that this works ONLY if the attack goes from the ONE province to the other. If armies attack from more than one province, you will instead get the armies meet here value. Only one province has a river when armies meet there - Valencia.
My favorite is this first listing - so I know if I can royally screw a given province, from somewhere else :)
TO river attacks -- An attack TO Aragon FROM Valencia will have a river -- 46 instances for 30 provinces (not counting seas this time -- you can't attack sea regions):
ARAGON from VALENCIA
BAVARIA from BOHEMIA, FRANCONIA
BOHEMIA from BAVARIA
BRANDENBURG from POMERANIA, SAXONY
BULGARIA from MOLDAVIA, WALLACHIA
BURGUNDY from ANJOU, ILE_DE_FRANCE, TOULOUSE
CARPATHIA from POLAND
CHERNIGOV from KHAZAR
CORDOBA from VALENCIA
CRIMEA from KIEV
FRANCONIA from BAVARIA, LORRAINE
HUNGARY from AUSTRIA, SERBIA
ILE_DE_FRANCE from BURGUNDY, FLANDERS
KHAZAR from CHERNIGOV, KIEV, RYAZAN
KIEV from CHERNIGOV, CRIMEA, KHAZAR, LITHUANIA
LORRAINE from FREISLAND
MERCIA from WESSEX
MOLDAVIA from BULGARIA
MUSCOVY from VOLGA_BULGARIA
NORMANDY from FLANDERS
POLAND from CARPATHIA, SILESIA
PROVENCE from TOULOUSE
RYAZAN from KHAZAR
SAXONY from BRANDENBURG, DENMARK
SILESIA from POLAND
TOULOUSE from PROVENCE
VALENCIA from ARAGON, CORDOBA
VOLGA_BULGARIA from MUSCOVY
WALLACHIA from BULGARIA
WESSEX from MERCIA
FROM river attacks -- An attack FROM Anjou TO Burgundy will have a river -- A total of 46 river attacks from 36 provinces (49 instances from 38 provinces, if you include the 3 Baltic and Black Sea sea invasions):
ANJOU to BURGUNDY
ARAGON to VALENCIA
AUSTRIA to HUNGARY
BALTIC_SEA to POMERANIA
BAVARIA to BOHEMIA, FRANCONIA
BLACK_SEA to KIEV, MOLDAVIA
BOHEMIA to BAVARIA
BRANDENBURG to SAXONY
BULGARIA to MOLDAVIA, WALLACHIA
BURGUNDY to ILE_DE_FRANCE
CARPATHIA to POLAND
CHERNIGOV to KHAZAR, KIEV
CORDOBA to VALENCIA
CRIMEA to KIEV
DENMARK to SAXONY
FLANDERS to ILE_DE_FRANCE, NORMANDY
FRANCONIA to BAVARIA
FREISLAND to LORRAINE
ILE_DE_FRANCE to BURGUNDY
KHAZAR to CHERNIGOV, KIEV, RYAZAN
KIEV to CRIMEA, KHAZAR
LITHUANIA to KIEV
LORRAINE to FRANCONIA
MERCIA to WESSEX
MOLDAVIA to BULGARIA
MUSCOVY to VOLGA_BULGARIA
POLAND to CARPATHIA, SILESIA
POMERANIA to BRANDENBURG
PROVENCE to TOULOUSE
RYAZAN to KHAZAR
SAXONY to BRANDENBURG
SERBIA to HUNGARY
SILESIA to POLAND
TOULOUSE to BURGUNDY, PROVENCE
VALENCIA to ARAGON, CORDOBA
VOLGA_BULGARIA to MUSCOVY
WALLACHIA to BULGARIA
WESSEX to MERCIA
Technical details: This info was ripped from the Border Info section of MTW\campmap\startpos\HIGH.TXT by massaging it into a database, for MTW/VI v. 2.01 (//river set to RIVER instead of NO_RIVER). While it's conceivable it's different for other eras or versions, it seems unlikely (I didn't check; speak up if you've seen anything different). The armies meet here info is from the Region Attributes section of the same file (RIVER instead of NO_RIVER).
Some trivia: There are 492 Border Info entries (i.e., possible border attacks), for the 98 provinces and (from the) 33 sea regions. (This is different from the Link Together part of HIGH.TXT, which has additional sea-movement borders; Border Info doesn't have all possible permutations of crossing seas to attack, just adjacent sea provinces for attacks from the sea.) There are 106 attacks from sea to land, and 386 from land to land. The median number of attack-from routes for provinces is 5; the least is 1, for the four islands in their own sea (this doesn't include Ireland). Six provinces have only one adjacent land province (Finland, Norway, Scotland, Sicily, and Corsica+Sardinia). The Black Sea can launch the most sea attacks into provinces (9); seven seas can only attack into one province (Atlantic Coast/Morocco, Gulf of Sidra/Cyrenacia, Maltese Channel, Mirtoon Sea/Greece, Norwegian Coast, Sea of Crete, Sea of Marmara/Constantinople). Burgundy and Poland can attack to the highest number of Provinces (9 each); those two plus Cordoba (including seas) can be attacked from the most provinces/seas (9 again).
SPOILER ALERT --
The preceding isn't a spoiler, since it just summarizes what's obvious in the game. As for the spoiler,
If any newbies are wondering why I think rivers are fun, the answer is arrows, arrows, and more arrows. (Any of the archer units.)
When you are defending, it's obvious that the enemy piles up on the bridge, where you can rain down arrows. This is the one and only place - and magnificent to see - where I like the very slow but very lethal arbalesters (pavise or not.. you're pretty safe on the other side of the bridge). In all other battles, I prefer the intense speed of regular archers/longbows (kill first or be killed). Also, your spear-type frontline unit will generally do very well with H & F on, when defending at the base of a bridge. (High discipline/morale and/or generals help here, if you're having trouble.)
It might not be as obvious how bridges can be used to crush an enemy when attacking, but here's how it works: If you move any unit approx. two-thirds of the way across the bridge, the enemy will immediately respond by sending someone to accost them. So, stop a tough defense unit (your best spear-type) the instant you see the enemy respond, and let them rush you... then let a ton of arrows fly. *Same difference.* :) For as long as your unit holds, they will keep rushing until either their entire force is almost wiped out, or they've been punished quite a bit and retreat back... in which case you can usually proceed across relatively unmolested.
The one drawback to this bridge-attack method is, if the enemy has a lot of archers. Your crew on the bridge will have to endure it, and it may take the devastation of a few of your bridgehead units - but eventually the enemy will run out of other units (which you've been quickly wiping out with arrows while they fought your bridgehead), and he'll start sending his archers to fight you on the bridge (heh heh heh). Alternately, you can sometimes either move an arbalester or longbow partway on the bridge (not far enough to cause a charge), or otherwise be able to shoot some of his archers, before you do your real bridgehead... it all depends on whether you can outshoot his archers somehow, at first. Sometimes they leave an archer unit at the edge of their line of battle such that you can just reach it across the river with several of yours... in this case, position your archers just out of reach, then have them all run within range and let fly... your numeric advantage, used quickly, should tear up at least that one unit. Of course, if the enemy is almost totally archers, you might say to hell with drawing them into a bridge fight, and just rush'em with heavy cav... but this would be a real rarity, since it only takes one or three good defenders on his part to stop your cav, which would then quickly die to his arrows.
For best results when using archers versus bridges, line your archers up directly in line with the bridge as much as possible (nice thin columns, bunched very close together) so that they're all shooting straight ahead as much as possible, into the enemy on the bridge. IOW, the usual hit or miss of some arrows being a bit high or low won't matter as much if the enemy is lined up before you (although it still matters some, including to left and right). Also, feel free to hold your fire until the enemy is really bunched up (assuming your bridgehead is holding ok) so that you get the most out of your arrows, esp. if you ultimately don't have enough for all his units. Just the same, if you have a lot of arbalesters (6 or even 9 units), almost nothing can stand up to them for any length of time, whether you're shooting straight ahead or not, the enemy is bunched or not, or whatever - all enemies, no matter how armored, go down fast to a lot of arbies with a clear shot. (I don't consider them tenable in non-bridge attacks, though, because if the enemy closes with your spear wall fast, your slow-firing arbies then no longer have a clear shot.) Arbies need a little time... and a bridge gives you plenty of it.
Which reminds me - If you have a lot of archers, but they don't seem to be having much effect (even though the enemy is in range), watch them as they fire... if few or none of them are making the shooting motion, there's a problem with e.g. your own troops blocking their shot, an untenable angle of fire (down, over, or up a hill), trees (though not in bridge engagements), or whatever. By the same token, if you like lots of archers, being on top of a tall hill is not necessarily a good idea - they won't be able to shoot over your wall of spears (or whatever) to the enemy just past the spears, down the slope. (But if both you and the enemy is on the same long sloping hillside such as a mountainside, that's ok.)
Okeydoke - Mike
True, this list is pretty useless since you can see it right in the game. But it might save a little time if you would like to attack a particular province but it has like four million provinces around it, and you want to know which have rivers. (Or not if you're a noob :)). Also anybody who wants to Be All They Can Be, Know All They Can in MTW land, here's the rivers, once and for all. (Has anybody posted this before?)
Remember that this works ONLY if the attack goes from the ONE province to the other. If armies attack from more than one province, you will instead get the armies meet here value. Only one province has a river when armies meet there - Valencia.
My favorite is this first listing - so I know if I can royally screw a given province, from somewhere else :)
TO river attacks -- An attack TO Aragon FROM Valencia will have a river -- 46 instances for 30 provinces (not counting seas this time -- you can't attack sea regions):
ARAGON from VALENCIA
BAVARIA from BOHEMIA, FRANCONIA
BOHEMIA from BAVARIA
BRANDENBURG from POMERANIA, SAXONY
BULGARIA from MOLDAVIA, WALLACHIA
BURGUNDY from ANJOU, ILE_DE_FRANCE, TOULOUSE
CARPATHIA from POLAND
CHERNIGOV from KHAZAR
CORDOBA from VALENCIA
CRIMEA from KIEV
FRANCONIA from BAVARIA, LORRAINE
HUNGARY from AUSTRIA, SERBIA
ILE_DE_FRANCE from BURGUNDY, FLANDERS
KHAZAR from CHERNIGOV, KIEV, RYAZAN
KIEV from CHERNIGOV, CRIMEA, KHAZAR, LITHUANIA
LORRAINE from FREISLAND
MERCIA from WESSEX
MOLDAVIA from BULGARIA
MUSCOVY from VOLGA_BULGARIA
NORMANDY from FLANDERS
POLAND from CARPATHIA, SILESIA
PROVENCE from TOULOUSE
RYAZAN from KHAZAR
SAXONY from BRANDENBURG, DENMARK
SILESIA from POLAND
TOULOUSE from PROVENCE
VALENCIA from ARAGON, CORDOBA
VOLGA_BULGARIA from MUSCOVY
WALLACHIA from BULGARIA
WESSEX from MERCIA
FROM river attacks -- An attack FROM Anjou TO Burgundy will have a river -- A total of 46 river attacks from 36 provinces (49 instances from 38 provinces, if you include the 3 Baltic and Black Sea sea invasions):
ANJOU to BURGUNDY
ARAGON to VALENCIA
AUSTRIA to HUNGARY
BALTIC_SEA to POMERANIA
BAVARIA to BOHEMIA, FRANCONIA
BLACK_SEA to KIEV, MOLDAVIA
BOHEMIA to BAVARIA
BRANDENBURG to SAXONY
BULGARIA to MOLDAVIA, WALLACHIA
BURGUNDY to ILE_DE_FRANCE
CARPATHIA to POLAND
CHERNIGOV to KHAZAR, KIEV
CORDOBA to VALENCIA
CRIMEA to KIEV
DENMARK to SAXONY
FLANDERS to ILE_DE_FRANCE, NORMANDY
FRANCONIA to BAVARIA
FREISLAND to LORRAINE
ILE_DE_FRANCE to BURGUNDY
KHAZAR to CHERNIGOV, KIEV, RYAZAN
KIEV to CRIMEA, KHAZAR
LITHUANIA to KIEV
LORRAINE to FRANCONIA
MERCIA to WESSEX
MOLDAVIA to BULGARIA
MUSCOVY to VOLGA_BULGARIA
POLAND to CARPATHIA, SILESIA
POMERANIA to BRANDENBURG
PROVENCE to TOULOUSE
RYAZAN to KHAZAR
SAXONY to BRANDENBURG
SERBIA to HUNGARY
SILESIA to POLAND
TOULOUSE to BURGUNDY, PROVENCE
VALENCIA to ARAGON, CORDOBA
VOLGA_BULGARIA to MUSCOVY
WALLACHIA to BULGARIA
WESSEX to MERCIA
Technical details: This info was ripped from the Border Info section of MTW\campmap\startpos\HIGH.TXT by massaging it into a database, for MTW/VI v. 2.01 (//river set to RIVER instead of NO_RIVER). While it's conceivable it's different for other eras or versions, it seems unlikely (I didn't check; speak up if you've seen anything different). The armies meet here info is from the Region Attributes section of the same file (RIVER instead of NO_RIVER).
Some trivia: There are 492 Border Info entries (i.e., possible border attacks), for the 98 provinces and (from the) 33 sea regions. (This is different from the Link Together part of HIGH.TXT, which has additional sea-movement borders; Border Info doesn't have all possible permutations of crossing seas to attack, just adjacent sea provinces for attacks from the sea.) There are 106 attacks from sea to land, and 386 from land to land. The median number of attack-from routes for provinces is 5; the least is 1, for the four islands in their own sea (this doesn't include Ireland). Six provinces have only one adjacent land province (Finland, Norway, Scotland, Sicily, and Corsica+Sardinia). The Black Sea can launch the most sea attacks into provinces (9); seven seas can only attack into one province (Atlantic Coast/Morocco, Gulf of Sidra/Cyrenacia, Maltese Channel, Mirtoon Sea/Greece, Norwegian Coast, Sea of Crete, Sea of Marmara/Constantinople). Burgundy and Poland can attack to the highest number of Provinces (9 each); those two plus Cordoba (including seas) can be attacked from the most provinces/seas (9 again).
SPOILER ALERT --
The preceding isn't a spoiler, since it just summarizes what's obvious in the game. As for the spoiler,
If any newbies are wondering why I think rivers are fun, the answer is arrows, arrows, and more arrows. (Any of the archer units.)
When you are defending, it's obvious that the enemy piles up on the bridge, where you can rain down arrows. This is the one and only place - and magnificent to see - where I like the very slow but very lethal arbalesters (pavise or not.. you're pretty safe on the other side of the bridge). In all other battles, I prefer the intense speed of regular archers/longbows (kill first or be killed). Also, your spear-type frontline unit will generally do very well with H & F on, when defending at the base of a bridge. (High discipline/morale and/or generals help here, if you're having trouble.)
It might not be as obvious how bridges can be used to crush an enemy when attacking, but here's how it works: If you move any unit approx. two-thirds of the way across the bridge, the enemy will immediately respond by sending someone to accost them. So, stop a tough defense unit (your best spear-type) the instant you see the enemy respond, and let them rush you... then let a ton of arrows fly. *Same difference.* :) For as long as your unit holds, they will keep rushing until either their entire force is almost wiped out, or they've been punished quite a bit and retreat back... in which case you can usually proceed across relatively unmolested.
The one drawback to this bridge-attack method is, if the enemy has a lot of archers. Your crew on the bridge will have to endure it, and it may take the devastation of a few of your bridgehead units - but eventually the enemy will run out of other units (which you've been quickly wiping out with arrows while they fought your bridgehead), and he'll start sending his archers to fight you on the bridge (heh heh heh). Alternately, you can sometimes either move an arbalester or longbow partway on the bridge (not far enough to cause a charge), or otherwise be able to shoot some of his archers, before you do your real bridgehead... it all depends on whether you can outshoot his archers somehow, at first. Sometimes they leave an archer unit at the edge of their line of battle such that you can just reach it across the river with several of yours... in this case, position your archers just out of reach, then have them all run within range and let fly... your numeric advantage, used quickly, should tear up at least that one unit. Of course, if the enemy is almost totally archers, you might say to hell with drawing them into a bridge fight, and just rush'em with heavy cav... but this would be a real rarity, since it only takes one or three good defenders on his part to stop your cav, which would then quickly die to his arrows.
For best results when using archers versus bridges, line your archers up directly in line with the bridge as much as possible (nice thin columns, bunched very close together) so that they're all shooting straight ahead as much as possible, into the enemy on the bridge. IOW, the usual hit or miss of some arrows being a bit high or low won't matter as much if the enemy is lined up before you (although it still matters some, including to left and right). Also, feel free to hold your fire until the enemy is really bunched up (assuming your bridgehead is holding ok) so that you get the most out of your arrows, esp. if you ultimately don't have enough for all his units. Just the same, if you have a lot of arbalesters (6 or even 9 units), almost nothing can stand up to them for any length of time, whether you're shooting straight ahead or not, the enemy is bunched or not, or whatever - all enemies, no matter how armored, go down fast to a lot of arbies with a clear shot. (I don't consider them tenable in non-bridge attacks, though, because if the enemy closes with your spear wall fast, your slow-firing arbies then no longer have a clear shot.) Arbies need a little time... and a bridge gives you plenty of it.
Which reminds me - If you have a lot of archers, but they don't seem to be having much effect (even though the enemy is in range), watch them as they fire... if few or none of them are making the shooting motion, there's a problem with e.g. your own troops blocking their shot, an untenable angle of fire (down, over, or up a hill), trees (though not in bridge engagements), or whatever. By the same token, if you like lots of archers, being on top of a tall hill is not necessarily a good idea - they won't be able to shoot over your wall of spears (or whatever) to the enemy just past the spears, down the slope. (But if both you and the enemy is on the same long sloping hillside such as a mountainside, that's ok.)
Okeydoke - Mike