Questions on cannons & ProjectileStats.xls

[RedKnight]

Hi folks,

I'm having trouble figuring out what's the deal with cannons; which are best and when, etc. Also I don't understand some of the stuff in the ProjectileStats_v11.xls here in the Medieval / FAQs download area, if anyone can help...

1) I don't recognize some things in ProjectileStats. What's a ninjastar and the from_models? Where's the organ gun?

2) Out of culverin, demi-culv, bombard, and serpentine, the culverin seems to have the best stats, and the bombard sux. But why is the serpentine harder to produce (takes foundry AND handgun buildings), but seems considerably worse than the culverin or demi-culv? (Maybe it's better for Muslim, since it's safer... they have to make do with the unsafe cannons.) I seem to recall someone once saying serpentine is best... I'm not seeing this, relative to its stats... it has less range and much less power than the culvs (but does fire faster and have more shots... better for a field battle than a castle battle, then? but then, does anybody really use cannons for field battles? I have yet to).

3) I don't see the organ gun in ProjStats or an (old?) unit data spreadsheet. Is it new in MTW/VI 2.01, or am I missing something? I tried it once in a battle but it seemed pretty worthless... again, am I missing something? Do you use it much and, if so, when?

All in all, really I'm just asking for general discussion/opinions about cannons... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif

TIA folks Keep on firing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif - Mike

[Accounting Troll]

If you haven't already done so, download the Gnome Editor - it makes it a lot easier to edit the projectilestats file.

In the unit_prod text file, any unit, including artillery that can shoot or throw projectiles is associated with a particular projectile type. You can have more than one unit using a particular projectile type.

If you bump up the statistics for javelins in the projectilestats file, all javelin units in the game will become more lethal. No modders have found a way to increase the number of projectile types as far as I am aware.

The ninja star is a bit of leftover code from Shogun Total War. it could be useful if you want to have a unit that uses a different kind of projectile to the other projectiles in the game.

The organ gun only appears once you have installed the Viking Invasion addon. I hardly ever bring one along because the range is pathetic.

I'm not certain, but I think the from_models is tied in with the models used in battles, eg the bombard crew are standing around a model of a bombard which will sit there even after the crew are killed or they run away.

I think the serpentine is more accurate than other guns, as well as having a faster reload time. It is probably best used in a battle for softening up the enemy army at the beginning of the battle. Aim for a unit dirtectly in front of the enemy general...

Only use the mortar as an anti-personnel weapon. Historically, they were used in castle bombardments but not against the walls. The projectiles would be lobbed over the walls and into the courtyard, where they would splinter on impact, causing heavy casualties from shrapnel. Mortars identical to the one in the game were used as late as the English Civil War.

[RedKnight]

Thanks Troll... I have yet to play a muslim race... are mortars worth it?

Thanks for the tips on the serpentine; they have several differences from e.g. the mighty culverin, Culverin numbers shown first:

Range: 24000 / 16000 = culverin +50% farther

Velocity: 400 / 300 = +33% faster (higher means flatter arc trajectory; is it worse then for field battles, shooting over intervening troops of yours, hills, etc.?)

Power: 250 / 40 = +525% more powerful (but does this really matter for field battles? will any cannonball kill any dude; power only matters for castle walls? dunno)

Reload time: 16.3 / 10.7 seconds = +52% longer to fire (serp only takes two-thirds the time)

Blast radius: 128 / 96 = +33% bigger blast (this should be good, eh?)

Ammo: 25 / 40 = only 62% the ammo for the culverin; serp has 60% more shots

Accuracy is the same for both in ProjectileStats, as are all other numbers there and in the unit_prod... except the culverin costs twice as much (625 vs. 325; maintenance for both is minimal), but then it doesn't need any Gunsmith buildings, while the Serp needs Gunsmith Guild (total cost of the 3 gun buildings: 1800).

Anyway... does anybody use cannons much for field battles? If so, which one and why? And I take it everybody agrees that culverins are best for castles?

It's hard telling them apart in gameplay... they all shoot a ball, so what, lol... thanks for all the tips

Mike

[motorhead]

- the from_models entries are for castle walls

- organ guns: i'm not a big fan of them, but others have raved about their effectiveness for defensive bridge battles and castle gate defense. I've seen them rake my troops and take down around 10+ per volley.

- mortars: I've lost count of the number of reasons I hate them. Mortars best chance of killing are to hit a soldier on the head. They're useless in castle assaults: close enough to drop shots on troops inside means close enough to be shot up by arrow fire, out of arrow range means they can only shoot at walls...and their plunging fire means they have to hit the top of a wall to damage it, which doesn't happen very often. Their rate of fire isn't bad, but given how inaccurate arty is for the player plus how difficult it is to gain any valor for mortars they're never worth it, IMO.

- the serpentine's greatest advantage is it's quicker reload time and more ammo - it can simply put more lead in the air in a shorter time. Combine this with the bowling ball effect of round shots and even misses tend to get some kills. This leads to the beneficial cycle of more shots == more kills == more valor == more accurate fire == even more kills, etc., etc. Once a serp gets V3-4 (combat valor, not via command stars) they live up to their reputation as snipers.



Quote[/b] ]Anyway... does anybody use cannons much for field battles? If so, which one and why? And I take it everybody agrees that culverins are best for castles?
- first, siege cannons (muslims) are the most powerful per shots - 450, which beats all other arty by at least 200. Of course, they have a 3% chance of exploding after their 10th shot, but it's only happened to me once. Don't bunch your siege cannons together http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif
- for bridge attack/defense nearly any arty is worth bringing to the party.
- sometimes, even for non-bridge/castle fights some arty can be worthwhile. gentle hills are the best terrain, too steep and the enemy will soon be under their firing angle. When defending on a hill i'll often bring along 2 cats/cannons (except siege cannons which can't turn). On offense position a pair of them far forward in your setup zone and the mere threat of fire will often cause the AI to abandon good defensive terrain - area denial.

[RedKnight]

That makes tons of sense motorhead, thanks for all the pointers

My only comment would be in regard to using cannons in bridge fights... on the one hand, it's a good point I hadn't thought of, that on a bridge attack, it's like, what the hell, let's plaster'em some from afar before we really go for it, even if it is real hit or miss. (But make sure you've got a long-range gun, since you can't set up real close.)

For a bridge defense, though, I think I'd prefer the surety of archer units... cannons can be quite inaccurate, or only bring down a couple of guys (but occasionally they can cut a nice big hole in a bunch of enemies), whereas any archers will kill folks bunched up on a bridge by the score. Don't you think? (Do you use cannons for bridge defense much?) Organ guns might do quite fine on bridge defense (they can set up close when defending)... it sounds like something to try... if only the enemy would ever attack me and I remembered to get organ guns in position for a bridge battle, once I got powerful enough to have them, lol... details, details...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[GeoRElrod]

RedKnight,

I just played a bridge battle (custom battle) where I was the defender and used 2 organguns and three serpentines including 4 units of long bowmen. I had the computer set on expert and assigned it high valor units with armor and weapon upgrades.

They got to the middle of the bridge but none could pass further without routing.

I placed the two Organ guns at an angle towards the bridge so as to create a crossfire effect right close before the enemy got to my Chivalric Sergeants. I placed my long bowmen at similar angles with 2 on each side.

Just behind me on a hill about 180' away I placed my three serpentines. One down the axis of the bridge. Two only very slightly at a angle to the sides of the first cannon.

To make my case... I suffered no casualties, and killed approx. 700 men within a few minutes of battle. My Sergeants never entered combat the whole time.

So... for bridge defense I think they are an awesome combination. Also... if the enemy general attacks you while crossing the bridge... I would guess about a 40% chance that he is going to get hit by either the cannons or when he gets close by the organguns. That's what happened in my game.

Oh yeah... almost forgot to mention that the serpentines are very fast (or seemed like it) because they were firing every 5 seconds or less.

[motorhead]

I was gonna write more about arty and bridge attack/defense but i had to run. You're right, unit for unit, archers/xbows will get more kills in a bridge battle. For a normal bridge battle, i might bring along 2-4 pieces of arty to dish out some long-distance damage. I prefer catapults or gunpowder arty that can turn. Mangonels and trebuchets also have rounded shots (to get those nice bounces) but can't move and have limited firing cones.

-One of the main reasons i like to bring arty to bridge battles is it's a good way to quickly get them some valor. A few units of high combat valor arty is useful in any battle.

- It actually works quite well when attacking as the AI tends to line up in front of the bridge, sometimes in a nice long line, sometimes more spread out. Best of all, they tend to stand and wait for you to make a move - nice stationary targets for arty. Make sure u aim for a centered unit, even if it's crap, so misses have a good chance of causing kills. (Also note, it doesn't have to be long-range arty, catapults will do. Arty is the only type of unit the attacker is allowed to manually place. Just put them at the very front of your start area to get the best bridge kill zone.)

- on bridge defense arty is generally less attractive. The AI tends to rush its units onto the bridge which limits how effective arty can be. I'll still bring along a unit or two of arty that already has some combat valor.

- bridge battles in hilly/mountain terrain is particularly poor for arty. The slopes on the other side tend to eat the bouncing shots, which robs arty of 'bounce kills'.

- if u really want to play with organ guns, keep your eye for merc units. I think they can show up as mercs even in High period, before players can build them.

[SpencerH]

Quote[/b] (motorhead @ May 15 2004,21:39)]- if u really want to play with organ guns, keep your eye for merc units. I think they can show up as mercs even in High period, before players can build them.
That happened in my last campaign I had an OG long before gunpowder. Just be aware that the range of OG is no better than point blank.

[katank]

archers/x-bow/arbs are better at killing.

don't neglect the morale effects of arty though.

fired upon by gunpowder weapons scare the lighting daylights out of most units as GeoRElrod observed.

In my defenses of Kiev, I once had two merc organ guns setup in similar cross fire formation along with about 3 napthas behind my merc italian inf.

the khan led the MHC charge and disappeared in a blaze of glory. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Culverin are mostly for castles although I bring em to field battles.

serpentines are just antipersonnel and quite accurate so they can often nail the general before their forces even get close which is quite useful.

I like 4 culverins, 4 serpentines, 2 organ guns to be a good arty force.

note: gunpowder boys don't miss much if you point one straight down a bridge.

the AI often had to say hello to four parallel culverins pointed down the mouth of the bridge and organ guns with crossfire in addition to a few serpentines on the banks.

not even cav managed to get across the killing zone in decent numbers.

my chiv sarges finished the survivors off. they never even touched my guns

[Peredhil]

An organ gun pointed at a mass of enemies in a choke point will fire once and kill scores. One volley killed about fifty peasants once, causing the whole enemy army to chain-rout.

Generally, I use culverins, unless I am strapped for cash, in which case I choose demi-culverins for sieges and serps for anti-troop guns. Culverins are devastating against walls and troops if you fire them a little closer than max range to increase accuracy.

[katank]

I find serps to be better than culvs for generals so I tend to use a combo of them for field arty.

pure culvs for sieges naturally http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Cazbol]

I rely heavily on artillery in battles. In field battles I use organ guns, serpentines and demi-cannons.

Note that the organ guns can be of great use in defensive non-bridge battles, especially when defending a hill. The elevation gives them a bit longer range, so put them behind your spear wall, allow them to fire at will (A) and wait for the enemy to approach. Organ gun fire is probably among the worst morale penalties one can get and a few volleys will frequently convince formidable armies that dieing isn't a very good idea.

While mortars aren't all that good I do use them in castle assaults until I get better gun powder units. I never ever use them against troops. I primarily use them on the towers, the keep and as a last resort on the walls, although I usually use catapults for the walls. In my experience the mortars are fairly accurate in aiming sideways but less so in determining the length of the shot. Therefore I find them most effective when firing from their maximum range. This makes the ball's trajectory a bit more horizontal and it will therefore often hit towers in the sides as opposed to the top. It also helps not to place the mortars on high ground, and in fact one should place them as low as possible to further flatten the trajectory.