Do weapon upgrades affect arrow/bolt damage?

[Esquilax]

Playing the Spanish, I was wondering whether I should make Navarre an archer/arabelester producing province. Would the weapon upgrade from a metalsmith make the arrows more damaging, or does it only affect the archer's melee damage?

[GeoRElrod]

I just played a custom battle where I had English long bowmen with high valor and maxed out weapon upgrade... it looked like the arrows were doing considerable damage to some high value units... so I would say that the weapon upgrade to all missile weapon units is for both missiles and melee.

[octavian]

good question, tbk, weapon armour upgrades only affect a units attack. go here (http://shogun.cafe24.com/medieval/) for some fairly detailed info on each unit.


and welcome to the ORG http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[motorhead]

I can't find the exact thread, but i know others have runs tests in MP and weapon upgrades have no effect on projectiles. Your missile troops will melee better but their arrows/bolts are the same.


Quote[/b] ]I just played a custom battle where I had English long bowmen with high valor and maxed out weapon upgrade... it looked like the arrows were doing considerable damage to some high value units... so I would say that the weapon upgrade to all missile weapon units is for both missiles and melee.

- well, unless you ran many tests with both plain and upgraded longbows, that example alone doesn't prove anything. Longbowmen use longbows, a seperate projectile weapon listed in the projectilestats.txt game file. Longbows are simply better (range and armor penetration) than the regular shortbows every other archer in the game uses.
- extensive tests have also shown that archer valor (at least up to the +4V in custom battle) has no effect on accuracy.

[Esquilax]

Thanks for the help, I've played Medieval for a while but never new.

[katank]

@GeoRElrod,

longbows have AP ability. they have an armour multiplier of 0.6 comapred to .5 for arbs and x-bows.

thus, they are only slightly worse than those for armour piercing.

unit's missiles are NOT affected by weapon upgrades, only for melee.

since armor helps in both missile duels and melee, I personally think that armor is far more important for missiles.

longbows also have AP axes and are not much worse than FMAA.

thus, I consider them hybrids and will often upgrade weapons for hybrids also but only after the bread and butter armor is in.

max upgraded longbows at V3-4 can be a fearsome sight as you can just about field an all longbow army with a few billmen for good measure.

whatever scraps survive the long ranged volleys of death will likely not be enough to beat the longbos in melee.

they sure shoot faster than arbs too and can arc their shots.

I must go play an English game now. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[RedKnight]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 16 2004,09:19)]I must go play an English game now. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
lol Let us know who wins
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[ichi]

Don't make Navarre a missile producer, for as Katank and others have stated it is wasted on these trrops. I usually make Navarre a sword producing province. It makes sense to me to put that extra attack on a sword unit like FMAA or CMAA.

Early in the game, I make my religious agents and Crusades in Leon, for the valor bonus Knights of Santiago. Portugal is a good place to build ships, Caravels get the bonus there. Castille makes Jinetes and Knights, while Aragon makes Spears/Sargents, and Valencia makes missiles. I try to make Cordoba a full spectrum province, able to build a little of each.

I use Granada for my agents - emissaries, spies, assassins.

ichi

[katank]

I do things a bit different from ichi although his setup is also very good.

since I rush early and fast, I use Castille for Crusades as it starts with a church and can let me start my North Africa crusade run. Later, they produce inquisitors and I have a few dozen of them running around frying random enemies.

Leon I use for jinettes and later Crusades when I get that up and runnign for bonused Santiagos

Aragon I also use for spears but swords too until I get Navarre set up.

I build knights in Toulouse as the French don't have contact with that land and I grab it early and autoceasefire. Kngihts there is great since later I can build valour bonused chiv knights there with just a little further up the tech tree.

Valencia is also devoted to jinettes as I sometimes bribe El Cid and since he's a jinette, I decide to honor him by building only jinettes there.

This is just my version though as I modded Valencia to have valor bonus for JInettes and Amulghavars to be buildable in Aragon.

Otherwise, Aragon would also be a sword province as the weapons are also somewhat wasted on spears.

spears only need heavy armor to hold the line while FMAA or CMAA and cav rip up the enemy flanks.

I use Cordoba and Granada for Spears and Morocco for archers as I most likely capture the bowyer intact.

Every province I make capable of ships.

[GeoRElrod]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 16 2004,08:19)]unit's missiles are NOT affected by weapon upgrades, only for melee.

Oops, just goes to show me I need more experience. I wish that missiles could have their arrows or bullets upgraded... that would be nice.

Also... thanks for the tip on Armour for missiles.

[katank]

no problem.

one thing though. If using horse archers, then morale upgrades like churches and all the religious buildings are more necessary than morale and should be obtained before armor.

this is true since HAs often have to skirmish and would often be under the disheartened by constant retreat penalty which would cause them to rout if they don't engage and just run around.

they can't afford slug fests so much run and shoot ad infinitum.

hence, they need good morale to tough it out.

this is not great if their morale is 0 like vanilla HAs and turcoman horse.

that's exactly why elite units with at least 4 morale make far better HAs not just because their increase melee.

case in point: szeks, faris, byz cav.

these don't need morale as bad.

otherwise, morale is a must for vanilla HA.

[Trickster]

It would be cool. You would think thee would be a way to increase them somehow.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[garion]

just edit their stats. I.ve made swiss armoured pikemen who were fats as lightning, could fight 10 rows rhick, had impenetrable armour, excellent morale and had a bonus when fighting cavalry, and they were trowing maphta over 400 meters

[katank]

you call this game balance???

SAPs are strong enough as it is.

you don't have to make them jedi nukes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

*runs off to create my own uber unit* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 16 2004,22:36)]this is true since HAs often have to skirmish and would often be under the disheartened by constant retreat penalty which would cause them to rout if they don't engage and just run around.
Are you sure about this? I thought mounted archers which still had ammo did not suffer from the constant retreat penalty. That penalty results in an unrecoverable rout. If have not yet encoutered this with HA, while my saharan cavalry trying to lure away a unit of kataphracktoi routed after two minutes

[katank]

there's a separate penalty for skirmishing without ammo which is -6.

constant retreat just builds up.

I get the HAs into a peasant unit's flanks time and again just to eliminate it.

make sure the target is a weak unit or you may get tangled in melee that can let the others come up and kill your HAs.