Troy

[DeadRunner]

well yesterday i saw the movie.
I remeber that i was warned by someone of the forum( i regret to say that i do not remeber the name )
well ihe was right it was a hollywood movie with many mistakes .
one of them was the no sense of time nothing in the movie show the years that the siege take.
aquilles die inside of troy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
paris run with helena http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif paris die by wounds if i remeber correctly
i dont remeber if meneleau dies in the siege.
Agamenon dies in Troy(and there is no mention of the sacrificie of his daughter)
the style of aquiles fight( what the hell was that moves http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif )


well i like the movie but .....................................

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

What did you expect from Hollyweird? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif

In the Iliad by Homer:

-The portraied period is the last year of the war that had been going on for 10 years.
-Neither the beggining (and the first 9 years) nor the end of the war, are portraied in the Iliad (it starts with the rebellion of Achilles and ends with the return of Hector's body to Troy).

I might be wrong, but IIRC, it is in the Eneid by Virgil ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif ??) that:

-Achilles is killed by an arrow, shot by Paris, that hits his heel.
-The Trojan Horse.
-Paris, Priam and the Trojan population are slaughtered by the Achean soldiers.
-Agamemnon is killed by is wife after returning home victorious.
-Ulisses (the inventor of the Trojan Horse concept) is lost at sea and takes 10 years to return home (therefore the Odissey - the sequel poem to the Iliad).
-After returning to Greece, Menelau is ready to kill Helen due to her adulterous behaviour, but thinks otherwise when is, again, seduced by her beauty.

As for the fighting, I haven't seen anything more f***ing ridiculous (Kangoroo Pitt??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif )

[Degtyarev14.5]

If I may depart from dicussing the film's factual accuracy / transgressions...

What I found most interesting about Troy (I saw it today) was the reversal of roles. Europeans and those of European ilk - such as my good self - are conditioned to regard the Ancient Greek society as a model of perfection. Our teachers tell us that modern mathematics was invented by the Greeks, as was democracy. They summarise their lectures by telling us that the very way we think is the product of Ancient Greek scholarship.

Subsequently, we tend to regard the Ancient Greek civilisation, and any legacies thereof, as Very Good Things.

Suddenly, we see Troy, and we are confronted by a power-mad and tactically inept Agamemnon, not to mention an insolent and uncontrollable Achillies, as contrasted to the (not unfaltering) wisdom of the ruler of Troy (his name escapes me) and his unconditional love for his sons. Here, the Greeks are depicted as bloodthirsty and ruthless savages, especially in the final razing of Troy.

Understandably, Homer was sympathetic to the Greeks and not the Trojans in composing the Iliad, and thus we normally cheer when the gates are opened during the dead of the night, allowing the Greeks to pour through. Although I knew it was inevitable, I couldn't help but squirm in my seat as it transpired, demonstrating that the director had done a very convincing job of turning the tables on our usual, ingrained perceptions of the Ancient Greeks and the Trojans.

Just my two bits, devoid of any organisation,
A.

Aymar, I'd like you to elaborate on your final comment about the battles. I'm not doubting or challenging you: I'm just interested in hearing your two bits. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (ArseClown @ May 16 2004,11:38)]If I may depart from dicussing the film's factual accuracy / transgressions...

What I found most interesting about Troy (I saw it today) was the reversal of roles. Europeans and those of European ilk - such as my good self - are conditioned to regard the Ancient Greek society as a model of perfection. Our teachers tell us that modern mathematics was invented by the Greeks, as was democracy. They summarise their lectures by telling us that the very way we think is the product of Ancient Greek scholarship.

Subsequently, we tend to regard the Ancient Greek civilisation, and any legacies thereof, as Very Good Things.

Suddenly, we see Troy, and we are confronted by a power-mad and tactically inept Agamemnon, not to mention an insolent and uncontrollable Achillies, as contrasted to the (not unfaltering) wisdom of the ruler of Troy (his name escapes me) and his unconditional love for his sons. Here, the Greeks are depicted as bloodthirsty and ruthless savages, especially in the final razing of Troy.

Understandably, Homer was sympathetic to the Greeks and not the Trojans in composing the Iliad, and thus we normally cheer when the gates are opened during the dead of the night, allowing the Greeks to pour through. Although I knew it was inevitable, I couldn't help but squirm in my seat as it transpired, demonstrating that the director had done a very convincing job of turning the tables on our usual, ingrained perceptions of the Ancient Greeks and the Trojans.

Just my two bits, devoid of any organisation,
A.
You forgot that the greeks also teached us Greek Tragedy Acting? Remember all those sad, vengefull and very cruel stories? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif We tend to idealise them. They weren't perfect and Homer shows us just that.

In fact, In the Iliad, Homer portrais the Acheans (Bronze Age Hellenes - Greeks) in a very similar way to what you've told us. The hero with the greatest qualities is not Achilles, but Hector. Agamemnon is depicted as a ruthless, coward and obsessed dictator (he sacrificies his daughter to the gods to be able to proceed the war).

Therefore, in that sense, the film is not that unfaithfull.

[Degtyarev14.5]

Absolutely. I'm not disputing the faithfulness of the film to the original poem. I find it very interesting that we still idolise the Ancient Greeks despite their very real failings. Perhaps we could regard Troy as a long-overdue reminder of these.

In short, I agree with you entirely. I simply found this element of the film to be by far its most interesting property.

A.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (ArseClown @ May 16 2004,12:01)]Aymar, I'd like you to elaborate on your final comment about the battles. I'm not doubting or challenging you: I'm just interested in hearing your two bits. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif

I must be honest. I haven't seen the film yet. I'm going to see it today. I have only seen the trailers and read the previews in several cinema magazines. So, I can comment on Brad's ridiculous moves (I've seen them) but not on the battles right now. But rest assured, I'll be back to this thread to comment on the movie and to exchange impressions with you.



Quote[/b] ]Absolutely. I'm not disputing the faithfulness of the film to the original poem. I find it very interesting that we still idolise the Ancient Greeks despite their very real failings. Perhaps we could regard Troy as a long-overdue reminder of these.

In short, I agree with you entirely. I simply found this element of the film to be by far its most interesting property.

A.
Maybe there is hope for Hollyweird, in the future, somehow??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif

[Suppiluliumas]

I would just like to point out for the sake of clarity, that the setting of the movie is the Mycenaean period, over half a millennium before the classical period and democracy in Greece. Nothing resembling democracy should therefore appear in the film. Also, far from taking the side of the Achaeans in the Iliad, Homer portrays both sides with equal pathos.

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (ArseClown @ May 16 2004,12:38)]Understandably, Homer was sympathetic to the Greeks and not the Trojans in composing the Iliad
Just to reiterate once again: if he sympathizes with anybody, Homer sympathizes with the Trojans, not the Achaeans. The most beautiful scenes in the Iliad are dedicated to Hector, and he even portrays Zeus as being more inclinned to the Trojans.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Suppiluliumas @ May 16 2004,14:28)]I would just like to point out for the sake of clarity, that the setting of the movie is the Mycenaean period, over half a millennium before the classical period and democracy in Greece. Nothing resembling democracy should therefore appear in the film. Also, far from taking the side of the Achaeans in the Iliad, Homer portrays both sides with equal pathos.
Completelly correct. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (hrvojej @ May 16 2004,15:03)]
Quote[/b] (ArseClown @ May 16 2004,12:38)]Understandably, Homer was sympathetic to the Greeks and not the Trojans in composing the Iliad
Just to reiterate once again: if he sympathizes with anybody, Homer sympathizes with the Trojans, not the Achaeans. The most beautiful scenes in the Iliad are dedicated to Hector, and he even portrays Zeus as being more inclinned to the Trojans.
Yeap. True. Didn't remember Zeus inclination though... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking.gif Maybe because I've read the Iliad quite a long time ago.

[hrvojej]

Zeus is always reluctant to send the black fate to the Trojan heroes in duels, so Hera has to entice him not to avoid the destiny, his favorite son of the time, Sarpedon, is a Trojan ally, etc.

[Rosacrux]

1. The film sucks. Big Time. Huge Time What bloody soulless flop... I watched it on the oppening night and I instantly hated it. The whole Vrisiis interlud (with the conclusion of her slaughtering Agamemnon, thus saving Klytemnystrae the fuss to do it herself later http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) the depiction of the whole thing, the style... oh, I hated it. Whatever.

2. The film captures indeed the spirit of Homer and the classical Greeks consequently (Aeschylus "Troades" is another Greek depiction of the Trojan war and it is even more favorable to the Trojans than Iliad). The Greeks of the classical era were not obsessed with some kind of nationalism and regarded the Trojan their kin anyway (see Hesiod, for instance). OF course the film is rather monolithical (Achilleas in Iliad is a tad bit more complicate than the love-hate caricature of Brad Pit, and Agamemnon is depicted as an able but cruel man of fate, a genuine tragical hero, in Iliad, not just a lustful, incompetent powermongering bastard as in the film etc. etc.).

3. Did I mention I hate this film? My spouse loved it - she got to see Pit's arse half a dozen times and that's what made the film for her http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[solypsist]

for you folks who are complaining about the movie:

two words:

Brad Pitt.
Come on now, just what were you expecting with that sort of lead-in?

And you have the nerve to act surprised by the Hollywood treatment of the story. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Didn't see it; bro did and loved (not surprising as he's a registered Titanic fan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif). In any case, I won't pay my 10,000,000 TL for it; better wait for the VCD.

Well, it's a law of nature. Any hollywood film has to have one absolute good hero, one absolute bad villain, one androgene-busting sexy superstar with a girlish face, one pretty wench to fight on, optionally another one to go jealous with the prior, the good sexy guy slaughtering the bad one for an orgasmic katharsis or the opposite for making the masses mourn until going to the next bar or coffee shop to forget about it.

So, no worries there. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
_

[monkian]

Any wrestling fans here ?

Anyone recongnise Nathan Jones- the beast of Boggor Road as the gigantic hero that Achilles kills with one sword thrust ?

http://www.pobladores.com/data/pobladores.com/h2/or/h2oriol/channels/wrestling_castellano/images/2825991njones.jpg

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ May 17 2004,02:13)]1. The film sucks. Big Time. Huge Time What bloody soulless flop... oh, I hated it. Whatever.

3. Did I mention I hate this film?
I think a couple of times... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif



Quote[/b] ] My spouse loved it - she got to see Pit's arse half a dozen times and that's what made the film for her http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
She also liked American Giggolo because of Richard Gere's nude scene? What a film fan... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (solypsist @ May 17 2004,03:16)]Brad Pitt.
Come on now, just what were you expecting with that sort of lead-in?
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif



Quote[/b] ]And you have the nerve to act surprised by the Hollywood treatment of the story. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I'm always inclined to agree with this comment... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Mouzafphaerre @ May 17 2004,06:03)]-
Didn't see it; bro did and loved (not surprising as he's a registered Titanic fan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif).
That figgers... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif



Quote[/b] ]Well, it's a law of nature. Any hollywood film has to have one absolute good hero, one absolute bad villain, one androgene-busting sexy superstar with a girlish face, one pretty wench to fight on, optionally another one to go jealous with the prior, the good sexy guy slaughtering the bad one for an orgasmic katharsis or the opposite for making the masses mourn until going to the next bar or coffee shop to forget about it.

So, no worries there. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
No worries? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif That's just the problem with this typical American political correctness... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (ArseClown @ May 17 2004,05:38)]"Understandably, Homer was sympathetic to the Greeks and not the Trojans in composing the Iliad, and thus we
Just my two bits, devoid of any organisation,"
First of - I'm not too sure why some people here hate the Wolfgang Peterson's version of Illiad so much.

The original story as told by the Greek poet - Homer - had the ancient Greek gods actively medddling in the affairs of men - even in battle. The gods inspire and foil the warriors as they fight. When the Trojans threaten to wipe out the entire Greek fleet - the god of the sea - Poseidon - harnessed his chariot drove out across the oceans and pushed the sons of Troy back with his horses and sea monsters. (Illiad Book XIII "Battle At the Ships")

Now seriously can any of you critics give a convincing way of showing the active role the gods played in the Battle?

Last thing - to be fair to Homer - he did make some mention of the evil the Greeks did to the fair city of Troy so beloved by Zeus. For their crimes, the gods cursed them and most of the Greek invasion fleet never made it back to their homelands.

Personally, I thought Wolfgang made a rather good adaptation of the Iliad. He made it and the characters more believable imho.

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (ArseClown @ May 17 2004,06:01)]Absolutely. I'm not disputing the faithfulness of the film to the original poem. I find it very interesting that we still idolise the Ancient Greeks despite their very real failings. Perhaps we could regard Troy as a long-overdue reminder of these.

In short, I agree with you entirely. I simply found this element of the film to be by far its most interesting property.

A.
We idolize the Ancient Greeks for creating an early form of democracy. And for their courage in facing off the mighty Persian Empire twice. Who can forget the famous battle at Thermoplylae where a small force of Greek warriors led by the Spartan King and his 300 strong personal guard held off the vastly superior Persian Army to buy time for the rest of Greece to mobilize.

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (solypsist @ May 17 2004,21:16)]Brad Pitt. Come on now, just what were you expecting with that sort of lead-in?

And you have the nerve to act surprised by the Hollywood treatment of the story. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
ROTFL I 100000% agree with you there Soly But considering Rosarcux's curious interpretation of history, I'm not surprised. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[The_Emperor]

Well certainly sounds like a true historical hollywood film... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

I can only imagine what treatment Alexander the Great will get from the Hollywood machine http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Quote[/b] ]Now seriously can any of you critics give a convincing way of showing the active role the gods played in the Battle?


Yes I can and this is my biggest complaint with the movie leaving the gods themselves almost totally out of the movie. It was done well in other movies I cannot think of the one off the top of my head that had to do with greek mythology. The one that starts with releasing the Kraken.
The best part of the movie is Achilles attitude towards the gods and when he points out that the gods envy us our mortality. Also when asked if he believes in the gods and he says heck Ive met them.

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 17 2004,19:10)]
Quote[/b] (ArseClown @ May 17 2004,06:01)]Absolutely. I'm not disputing the faithfulness of the film to the original poem. I find it very interesting that we still idolise the Ancient Greeks despite their very real failings. Perhaps we could regard Troy as a long-overdue reminder of these.

In short, I agree with you entirely. I simply found this element of the film to be by far its most interesting property.

A.
We idolize the Ancient Greeks for creating an early form of democracy. And for their courage in facing off the mighty Persian Empire twice. Who can forget the famous battle at Thermoplylae where a small force of Greek warriors led by the Spartan King and his 300 strong personal guard held off the vastly superior Persian Army to buy time for the rest of Greece to mobilize.
With great and amazing effort, I refrain from making a comment on that.

Anyways, going to see the movie on friday, I'm hoping it'll be a spectacle. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif



~Wiz

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 17 2004,14:05)]First of - I'm not too sure why some people here hate the Wolfgang Peterson's version of Illiad so much.
My question would be if he decided to change it so radically, why even call it Troy? Why not just place it in some galaxy far far away, and be done with it? That way, people would be going "Oh, cool, he made a reference to the Iliad" instead of "Did this ignoramus even bother to read the book at all?". As I stated in the other Troy thread in the Frontroom, I always worry that the movies will in fact end up educating people, although I'm strongly against it. I'm worried that I'll meet someone who'll say "Oh yea, Menelaus was that old Scottish guy, right?". You could say I dislike the potential effect this will have on furthering ignorance (yes, it's only a movie, and the Iliad is only a book, and I'm not losing sleep over it, I just think it's stupid).

[Mouzafphaerre]

Quote[/b] (hrvojej @ May 17 2004,22:36)]I always worry that the movies will in fact end up educating people, although I'm strongly against it. I'm worried that I'll meet someone who'll say "Oh yea, Menelaus was that old Scottish guy, right?".
-
Totally agreed. Same goes for computer games, popular novels and, well, anything "popular".
_

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (hrvojej @ May 18 2004,08:36)]Iliad" instead of "Did this ignoramus even bother to read the book at all?". As I stated in the other Troy thread in the Frontroom, I always worry that the movies will in fact end up educating people, although I'm strongly against it. I'm worried that I'll meet someone who'll say "Oh yea, Menelaus was that old Scottish guy, right?". You could say I dislike the potential effect this will have on furthering ignorance (yes, it's only a movie, and the Iliad is only a book, and I'm not losing sleep over it, I just think it's stupid).
Wait a second - so if Wolfgang Peterson faithfully following the Homer's epic poem about Troy being a war between gods, demigods, and the sons of men sired by gods - and we get to see Zeus quarrelling with Hera over the fate of Troy, Apollo, Poseidon, and Athene actively taking part in the battle - and also get all the actors to speak in ancient Greek - you're going to be happy? Then if you meet some dude who actually BELIEVES 100% all of this supernatural fairy tale... what then?

I think even Homer took a few artistic liberties when he recounted the tale of Troy - you know the part about the pro-active role that the Greek gods played. So why all the fuss again? What are you not happy about?

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (Gawain of Orkeny @ May 18 2004,07:55)]
Quote[/b] ]Now seriously can any of you critics give a convincing way of showing the active role the gods played in the Battle?


Yes I can and this is my biggest complaint with the movie leaving the gods themselves almost totally out of the movie. It was done well in other movies I cannot think of
Really pray tell how are you going to tell it? You said you saw it done in other movies which you can't remember? Wow. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 18 2004,22:00)]Then if you meet some dude who actually BELIEVES 100% all of this supernatural fairy tale... what then?
I'll direct him to the next Star Wars convention.

As I already said, why call it "Troy" at all then? Change a few names, and nobody is going to know it's about Troy at all - the few places where it may be recognizable are so uncommon that can be picked up as subtle references and a hommage.

Interpretation is one thing, reworking is another. And I simply find this reworking stupid, especially when I look back at the magnificence of the original story.

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (hrvojej @ May 19 2004,18:36)]
Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 18 2004,22:00)]Then if you meet some dude who actually BELIEVES 100% all of this supernatural fairy tale... what then?
Interpretation is one thing, reworking is another. And I simply find this reworking stupid, especially when I look back at the magnificence of the original story.
You are referring to the Illiad are you not? The same one where fickle minded gods fornicate with human beings, mess with their lives, minds, wives etc... Do you actually think that when Homer (or someunknown poets) told the story of Troy they did not "reimagine" or "rework" the story to incorporate the various Greek gods? Or do you also think that it was because of Helen's beauty that caused a thousand ships to sail and for the Trojans to sacrifice all?

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 19 2004,14:28)]You are referring to the Illiad are you not? The same one where fickle minded gods fornicate with human beings, mess with their lives, minds, wives etc... Do you actually think that when Homer (or someunknown poets) told the story of Troy they did not "reimagine" or "rework" the story to incorporate the various Greek gods? Or do you also think that it was because of Helen's beauty that caused a thousand ships to sail and for the Trojans to sacrifice all?
I don't think of the Iliad, or any other myth for that matter, as history. I do however think it's a far superior story (and fiction) than that presented by the movie script in every respect. It's the same case as having dragons in RTW, or some bozo doing a miserable cover of your favorite song. I also fear the influence popular culture has over "education" today, as I already said before.

Once again, if he wanted to do it so radically differently, and not go by the ideas presented in the original version of the story, why bother with calling it "Troy" at all?

[Suppiluliumas]

Amen.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

As promissed to ArseClown here is my view on the matter:

Regarding to the questions being debated in this thread, first of all we have to take into account what is our perception of what the film needs to portay. A faithfull depiction of the Iliad, including Homer's tales of supernatural interventions by the greek gods, or an "historical" aproximation (as far as we can claim it to be) of the Trojan War based on Hissarlik's and Mycenea's archeological finds, investigations of the historians and having the Iliad only as an inspiration to the script?


If we say Iliad, then I must say:

Pros:
-Characters: faithfull but more simplistic than in the novel, due to Hollywood's approach. Good acting, specially by Peter O'Toole.
-Battle scenes. Impressive and up to a point faithfull to Homer's descriptions (that were more based in Hoplite warfare than Mycenean Age warfare - remember the use of war chariots? ).
-The duels between Achilles, Hector, Menelau and Páris (although when I viewed the traillers, I was afraid that Achilles had kangoroo superpowers).

Cons:
-Gods: were are they? Only Achilles's mother makes a brief appearence...
-Story: The fact that WP "forgets" that the war of Troy lasted for 10 years, and that the Iliad only depicts part of the last year of the war. That the tale starts with Achilles's rebellion against Agamémnon and ends with Hector's funeral rites.
-Going to Virgilius's Eneid to fill the gaps (Trojan Horse, the Trojan survivors's exile).
-As some people said before, Menelaus isn't killed by Hector - in fact, he survives the war and reconciliates with Helen. Páris isn't saved by Hector, but by intervention of a god (don't recall which one), Agamémnon isn't killed by Briseis, but by his wife after reaching Mycenea (due to the fact that he sacrificed his daughter to the gods, etc...).
-How can two armies totaling 50000, hear that Hector has killed Patrocles and instantlly stop fighting? The men were scatered in a mile long line for god's sake "Well, let's stop fighting today and have a bruch" ?????????????


If we say "historical" aproximation, then I must ask:

Do we really have enough data not to invent things? NO.

Pros:
-The city of Troy. It's depiction is maybe a little too grandiose, but seems inspired on archeologic findings (the walls and citadel look very similar to historian's computer reconstructions of Troy VII (about 1200BC) ).
-Due to lack of data, I don't find the wardrobe that bad at all.
-Special effects: battle simulation. Large and fluid.

Cons:
-War chariots. According to historians they were extensively used or am I wrong?
-Javelin trowers. Where were they?
-Achean ships. Seem a rather later model (800BC?).
-Where were the armours (copper plates) and helms (wild boar fangs) found in Mycenea? Achilles's helm is clearly influented by the much later Corinthian one.
-Iron weapons in the Bronze Age?
-So many blonde, blue-eyed warriors? Achilles had blonde hair according to Homer, but what about the rest? The Dorians hadn't invaded yet...
-A really annoying quirck: Has anyone noticed that when the Trojans are first alarmed by the aproaching ships, between the fleeing population there is a couple of Lamas? Yes, the cargo animals of South America I know the film was filmed there but Lamas in Anatolia? WTF? I was really annoyed by such a blunder...


I think WP tried to base his film more on a possibly believable "historical" depiction, using the Iliad and Eneid as guidelines to complete the script. But he made a lot of cuts and dumbed down the speach. I know his objective wasn't to make a faithfull theather piece of Greek tragedy, but he could have achieved much better than this. All in all, I didn't disliked the film, but just because I was expecting so much worse...

[The Wizard]

You must remember that this is a depiction of Hollywood, and therefore a depiction of what most people think of when they hear the word "Troy" fall in a conversation - the Trojan horse.

Also, remember this is the movie of a book. Unlike the big screen version of something historical, like Alexander the Great or Hannibal, there is a lot of freedom for the director and screenplay writers. And how you view a book is your opinion entirely, and thus the director's, or the screenplay writers', or the artists'.

Take as example Lord of the Rings, regarding opinion. I've seen drawings of Nazgul depicting them as DnD thieves, the movie versions (cloaked, ghost-like appearance), and even a - nevertheless beautiful - drawing of a Nazgul as a huge, imposing knight with a big axe.

The same goes for Troy; there is simply a lot of breathing space to accomodate Hollywood's concentration upon spectacle and profit.



~Wiz

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ May 20 2004,14:41)]You must remember that this is a depiction of Hollywood, and therefore a depiction of what most people think of when they hear the word "Troy" fall in a conversation - the Trojan horse.

Also, remember this is the movie of a book. Unlike the big screen version of something historical, like Alexander the Great or Hannibal, there is a lot of freedom for the director and screenplay writers. And how you view a book is your opinion entirely, and thus the director's, or the screenplay writers', or the artists'.

Take as example Lord of the Rings, regarding opinion. I've seen drawings of Nazgul depicting them as DnD thieves, the movie versions (cloaked, ghost-like appearance), and even a - nevertheless beautiful - drawing of a Nazgul as a huge, imposing knight with a big axe.

The same goes for Troy; there is simply a lot of breathing space to accomodate Hollywood's concentration upon spectacle and profit.



~Wiz
Hey, Wiz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif I think I was pretty lean on the director. I didn't even disliked the movie http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

Besides, I mentioned that we have to take into consideration what to depict in the first place. It can be a number of things, due to the original work and the lack of historical data itself. I gave 2 examples, implying all the other ones that hoover around them... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

[Rosacrux]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 20 2004,13:42)]-A really annoying quirck: Has anyone noticed that when the Trojans are first alarmed by the aproaching ships, between the fleeing population there is a couple of Lamas? Yes, the cargo animals of South America I know the film was filmed there but Lamas in Anatolia?
Heya Here's an idea for a new RTW uber-unit... Sqirking Lamas or Bozo Lamas or
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ May 21 2004,04:40)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 20 2004,13:42)]-A really annoying quirck: Has anyone noticed that when the Trojans are first alarmed by the aproaching ships, between the fleeing population there is a couple of Lamas? Yes, the cargo animals of South America I know the film was filmed there but Lamas in Anatolia?
Heya Here's an idea for a new RTW uber-unit... Sqirking Lamas or Bozo Lamas or
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
How about the invencible Spiting Anatolian Lamas??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

[Red Peasant]

Whoever wrote the script should be shot, it was excruciatingly banal and uninspiring stuff. The film ain't bad as a bit of escapist nonsense, but there should have been some kind of approximation to the spirit, at least, of Homer's language. It has survived for some 2800 years in written form, yet it ain't good enough for Hollywood.

Personally, I crave for a big-budget, faithful depiction of The Iliad, in Homer's soaring Ionic Greek, with subtitles. And somebody who can act playing Achilles, not the one-dimensional Mr Pitt.

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Mouzafphaerre saves and prints Aymar's excellent review.
_

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Red Peasant @ May 21 2004,11:17)]Whoever wrote the script should be shot, it was excruciatingly banal and uninspiring stuff. The film ain't bad as a bit of escapist nonsense, but there should have been some kind of approximation to the spirit, at least, of Homer's language. It has survived for some 2800 years in written form, yet it ain't good enough for Hollywood.
They are too good to use such a primitive language to express themselves in the film... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif

I have to agree with your suggestion to shoot the script writter... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif



Quote[/b] ]Personally, I crave for a big-budget, faithful depiction of The Iliad, in Homer's soaring Ionic Greek, with subtitles.
Me too. But we'll just have to keep dreaming, won't we? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking2.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Mouzafphaerre @ May 21 2004,11:38)]-
Aymar de Bois Mauri Mouzafphaerre saves and prints Aymar's excellent review.
_
I'm most honoured by such a praise and act of recognition. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif A most apreciated gesture from an enlightned spirit... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif (although he digs ST... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif ) ...oh, well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif



http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

[solypsist]

16 days of war was preferable to ten years, for the movie anyway.

about Ajax; wasn't he killed in the movie? I'm sure he was, yet in the story, he is alive and Achilles is killed:

"Warrior prince who was huge and strong, but slow in speech. His father was king Telamon of Salamis. Ajax was considered the second greates warrior after Achilles, and he was the one who carried the hero's dead body back to the camp while Odysseus held the Trojans back.

Ajax fought well in the Trojan war, but when refused Achilles armour after the hero's death, he swore to kill Agamemnon and Menelaus. He was the struck by madness by the goddess Athena, who did not want this to happen, and comitted suicide in the way that was to be the Roman ideal : falling on his sword."

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (solypsist @ May 22 2004,03:06)]about Ajax; wasn't he killed in the movie?
Yes, well, he also wields a hammer... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

In fact, he was the cousin of Achilles, (the real one, as in Telamon and Peleus were brothers, not like "cousin" Patrocles). He is often considered second only to Achilles is battle prowess in the Achaean army, and was not the only hero with that name in the myth.

[Red Peasant]

One could say that Ajax is the great hero in The Iliad. He is always at the forefront, always the bulwark of the Argives, always the one they look to, to save them. They rally around mighty Telamonian Ajax on countless occasions. He even defeats Hector in a staged one-to-one duel, but the gods intervene to stop the fight before Hector is killed, saving him for the wrath of Achilles. IMO, the ony Argive who comes close is Diomedes, but he gets wounded and so misses a large chunk of the later action. OTOH, Odysseus is often noticeable for his absence compared to these two, even cutting and running on occasion. He is more noted for his intellect, though considered no mean warrior in his own right.

Ajax defending the ships, seemingly almost single-handed, in Book 15:

"Shame, you Argives All or nothing now-
die, or live and drive defeat from the ships
You want this flashing Hector to take the fleet
then each man walk the waves to regain his native land?
Can't you hear him calling his armies on, full force,
this Hector, wild to gut our hulls with fire?
He's not inviting them to a dance, believe me
He commands them into battle No better tactics now
than to fight them hand-to-hand with all our fury.
Quick, better to live or die, once and for all, than to die by inches, slowly crushed to death-
helpless against the hulls in the bloody press-
by far inferior men"

Thanks to R Fagles' sublime translation of The Iliad.

One should also read Sophocles' tragedy about Ajax's suicide. Brilliant stuff.

[Crimson Castle]

I thought that the scene where Priam begs Achilles for Hector's body was done quite well in the film. The dialogue was pretty good and Priam's gentle chastising of Achilles for killing "sons, cousins, fathers etc..:" was masterful. ( which did iirc did not come from Homer's account)

And for those people who want a 100% adaptation - tell me how you're going to do the following scene from Homer's Illiad Book XXIV -

"Their hunger and thirst satisfied, Dardanian Priam let his eyes dwell on Achilles and saw with admiration how big and beautiful he was, the very image of a god. And Achilles noted with equal admiration the noble looks and utterances of Priam. It gave them pleasure thus to look each other over..." Illiad Book XXIV.

LOL. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

One other thing - if you critics dont like Brad Pitt for the role of Achilles - tell me who would you choose ?

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 22 2004,12:09)]And for those people who want a 100% adaptation - tell me how you're going to do the following scene from Homer's Illiad Book XXIV
I think you mix a)staying true to the story and b)translating every word onto screen. The latter is obviously not possible, but that doesn't mean that the former is impossible as well.

[The Wizard]

What you've all apparently missed is the following little line in the credits after the end...

"Inspired by Homer's Iliad"

Hehehe, nice save Wolfgang http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif



~Wiz

[solypsist]

heh missed that credits thing

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 21 2004,07:42)]As promissed to ArseClown here is my view on the matter:

-How can two armies totaling 50000, hear that Hector has killed Patrocles and instantlly stop fighting? The men were scatered in a mile long line for god's sake "Well, let's stop fighting today and have a bruch" ?????????????
LOL. Yeah that looked a little silly. But to be fair, Homer's account also had a few silly moments too though.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (hrvojej @ May 22 2004,15:03)]
Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 22 2004,12:09)]And for those people who want a 100% adaptation - tell me how you're going to do the following scene from Homer's Illiad Book XXIV
I think you mix a)staying true to the story and b)translating every word onto screen. The latter is obviously not possible, but that doesn't mean that the former is impossible as well.
Preciselly.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 22 2004,22:28)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 21 2004,07:42)]As promissed to ArseClown here is my view on the matter:

-How can two armies totaling 50000, hear that Hector has killed Patrocles and instantlly stop fighting? The men were scatered in a mile long line for god's sake "Well, let's stop fighting today and have a bruch" ?????????????
LOL. Yeah that looked a little silly. But to be fair, Homer's account also had a few silly moments too though.
Yes, Homer wasn't probably very familiar with actual battle. That is why it is an Heroic Fable. Some passages seem silly to us.

[Seven.the.Hun]

oh blah, still just glad i didnt have to just stare at brad pitt the whole time, attractive as he is...i was rather...hmm, well simply i just liked staring at helen of troy here and there, yum
one could watch a hundred times, become jaded, but i'd still check her out, i spose...always a good thing...i wonder if there was such a historical woman who had the fabled effect...
go figure
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

[Orda Khan]

Helen was nice...but give me the two beauties in Brad's tent when that kid went to fetch him http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But why all this fuss over a film which loosely followed some 'story' told by some old Greek bloke? I fail to see the point to be honest. The film had some action, some love, some tragedy. All in all it was a good night out for me, the wife and kids. How 'true' was Homers' account of this conflict anyway?

......Orda

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (Orda Khan @ May 23 2004,14:43)]But why all this fuss over a film which loosely followed some 'story' told by some old Greek bloke? I fail to see the point to be honest. The film had some action, some love, some tragedy. All in all it was a good night out for me, the wife and kids. How 'true' was Homers' account of this conflict anyway?
I think is interesting and funny that in the forum where people get so upset by the inaccuracies in a computer game ("no, they didn't have flying pigs in Rome") at the same time it is not understood why some might get disappointed by the inaccuracies in a movie about a book. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The point is: nobody said that Homer equals history. But that doesn't detract from the point that his story is so much better (in my eyes) - history is not the only thing that loses its charm if it's not represented right. If this was a historical movie where things were thrown out the window to the same extent that they were in this case, I bet there would be a lot more consensus around here, and way fewer people surprised about what is there not to like about the movie, which, as I said, I find intriguing. How many times have I seen people refering to Braveheart for "historical accuracy", and other people rolling their eyes over those comments? The same thing is bound to happen in this case when someone mentions Trojan war and the Iliad. I don't know, think about what would happen if somebody made a really bad adpatation of your favorite work of art: a Hamlet play that is barely recognizable, an out-of-tune cover of your favorite song, or a really bad copy of your favorite painting. Yes, some adaptations, interpretations, covers, etc. can in fact be good, but this one was just bad, period.

ps.
I've posted a lot on this particular issue, but I'm not a fundie, honest. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif And I'm not losing any sleep over it either. I just thought this was a honest question, so I decided to give one last answer on the topic.

[The Wizard]

I liked the movie, it went the way of Gladiator (which can only be good), and was quite enjoyable. The only vague part was the way time was measured in the movie - sixteen day siege? Of which 14 days were mourning for Hector? Gah http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif



~Wiz

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (hrvojej @ May 23 2004,14:19)]
Quote[/b] (Orda Khan @ May 23 2004,14:43)]But why all this fuss over a film which loosely followed some 'story' told by some old Greek bloke? I fail to see the point to be honest. The film had some action, some love, some tragedy. All in all it was a good night out for me, the wife and kids. How 'true' was Homers' account of this conflict anyway?
I think is interesting and funny that in the forum where people get so upset by the inaccuracies in a computer game ("no, they didn't have flying pigs in Rome") at the same time it is not understood why some might get disappointed by the inaccuracies in a movie about a book. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The point is: nobody said that Homer equals history.
Correct. We're talking Homer, not Herodutus.



Quote[/b] ]But that doesn't detract from the point that his story is so much better (in my eyes) - history is not the only thing that loses its charm if it's not represented right. If this was a historical movie where things were thrown out the window to the same extent that they were in this case, I bet there would be a lot more consensus around here, and way fewer people surprised about what is there not to like about the movie, which, as I said, I find intriguing. How many times have I seen people refering to Braveheart for "historical accuracy", and other people rolling their eyes over those comments? The same thing is bound to happen in this case when someone mentions Trojan war and the Iliad. I don't know, think about what would happen if somebody made a really bad adpatation of your favorite work of art: a Hamlet play that is barely recognizable, an out-of-tune cover of your favorite song, or a really bad copy of your favorite painting. Yes, some adaptations, interpretations, covers, etc. can in fact be good, but this one was just bad, period.
True. It was.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ May 23 2004,14:22)]I liked the movie, it went the way of Gladiator (which can only be good), and was quite enjoyable. The only vague part was the way time was measured in the movie - sixteen day siege? Of which 14 days were mourning for Hector? Gah http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif



~Wiz
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif Ridiculous, isn't it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[Red Peasant]

Quote[/b] (hrvojej @ May 23 2004,19:19)]but I'm not a fundie, honest. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif And I'm not losing any sleep over it either. I just thought this was a honest question, so I decided to give one last answer on the topic.
You're not a 'fundie' mate, you've got soul.

[Colovion]

This was the first - and probably last Troy movie - I was disapointed that they didn't do as well as they could've with the Epic that they were given to work with. THen again it would've been a cinematic masterpiece to make fans of the Iliad content in under 3 hours on screeen - they needed more time to make it as in depth as it deserved. IT felt very rushed, but it was entertaining. My friends that don't know the real story enjoyed it, I guess sometimes ignorance is bliss. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

[Lazul]

just as the LOTR you have to see the movie as just a move BASED on the book not a film OF the book.
Its almost impossible to make an exakt version of a book in to a film. ehr, hope you understand what im saying.

And why is everyone complaining about Achilles fighting style? I liked it, the duel between him and Hector was one of the best fighting scenes I ever seen... Lets just be happy that it wasnt a Hong Kong version with 10k-swings-a-minute-fight.

The only thing I didnt like about the movie was the the way the armies fought each other... seems like Wolfgang forgot that even in ancient times generalls knew what Tactics was

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (Lazul @ May 24 2004,22:15)]
And why is everyone complaining about Achilles fighting style? I liked it, the duel between him and Hector was one of the best fighting scenes I ever seen... Lets just be happy that it wasnt a Hong Kong version with 10k-swings-a-minute-fight.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
A reviewer commented that seeing Brad Pitt fighting against Hector was like seeing the figures on an ancient Grecian Urn come to life.

I think he's got a point there - I thought it was pretty good too.

[Sjakihata]

I denmark the reviewers is totally hype about the movie, and disagreed with those in Cannes. They said it was a masterpiece etc etc.

Well, tonight Im watching it, so I will give some input afterwards.

[Red Peasant]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 24 2004,13:09)]
Quote[/b] (Lazul @ May 24 2004,22:15)]
And why is everyone complaining about Achilles fighting style? I liked it, the duel between him and Hector was one of the best fighting scenes I ever seen... Lets just be happy that it wasnt a Hong Kong version with 10k-swings-a-minute-fight.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
A reviewer commented that seeing Brad Pitt fighting against Hector was like seeing the figures on an ancient Grecian Urn come to life.

I think he's got a point there - I thought it was pretty good too.
Thing is, it ain't much of a fight in Homer's epic: Hector runs away a lot, basically crapping his pants , then he eventually decides to stand and fight, and runs straight onto Achilles' spear which skewers him through the neck. Bit of an anti-climax really Some of the other 'fighting' is much better. One good one is where a Trojan gets speared in the head and his eyes pop out and roll around on the ground. Ironic, because he was something of a seer/prophet.

[Orda Khan]

Yes I agree with everyone who thinks the film should have remained true to the Iliad....but that is just my opinion. Perhaps something along the lines of Jason and the Argonauts, where the Gods did intervene, would have been more acceptable. However films are entertainment and this film, like Braveheart, did entertain. It is pointless to expect Hollywood etc to teach history, it will never happen. Unfortunately there are too many gullible people who still believe what they see on TV and on film and believe what they read in newspapers. If I do historical research I look for many sources as facts differ even among so called historical accounts.
Enjoy the film for what it is....and yes I loved the duel between Hector and Achilles...very nice action.
Heh...I also loved those Trojan blue robes, where can I get one?

.....Orda

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (Red Peasant @ May 25 2004,06:05)]http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
A reviewer commented that seeing Brad Pitt fighting against Hector was like seeing the figures on an ancient Grecian Urn come to life.

I think he's got a point there - I thought it was pretty good too.[/quote]
Thing is, it ain't much of a fight in Homer's epic: Hector runs away a lot, basically crapping his pants , then he eventually decides to stand and fight, and runs straight[/QUOTE]
Yeah in Homer's Illiad the warriors always seem to be running around a lot and hiding themselves somewhere. It always struck me rather comical. Oh and don't forget how the gods trick Hector into fighting Achilles and how Achilles drove his corpse around Troy several times....

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 24 2004,22:34)]Yeah in Homer's Illiad the warriors always seem to be running around a lot and hiding themselves somewhere. It always struck me rather comical. Oh and don't forget how the gods trick Hector into fighting Achilles and how Achilles drove his corpse around Troy several times....
Because they are all just men after all, and the greatest hero is the one who is able to overcome the fear, not the one who has none. Again, chivalric vs. classical myths.

[Sjakihata]

Agammemnon and Menelaos was killed... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Shahed]

AHA

Now I know what I'm going to do this afternoon while everyone is at work.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-angel.gif

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (hrvojej @ May 25 2004,21:00)]Because they are all just men after all, and the greatest hero is the one who is able to overcome the fear, not the one who has none. Again, chivalric vs. classical myths.
Overcome fear? Have you even read the Illiad? In Homer's account, the fate of man and of Troy was all decided by the gods. Man's courage counted for very little.

In the fight between Hector and Achilles, it was Athene that tricked Hector into turning around and fighting Achilles. Then when Achilles had missed with his spear throw - Athene intervened and fetched the spear back to Achilles.

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 25 2004,13:02)]Have you even read the Illiad?
I have, but you obviously don't understand the allegories used in it. I rest my case.

[Crimson Castle]

LOL... ooo the patronizing patron. Calm down, don't get your panties in a twist.

[hrvojej]

I'm not trying to patronize you, don't get the wrong impression. It would seem that we have different views altogether on the book, so I guess there's no point in discussing it further in that same tone.

Cheers,

[Rosacrux]

For those who have watched the film, follow this link Another view on WPs Troy (http://www.livejournal.com/users/cleolinda/99710.html).

It is... err... a different approach to the story http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ May 26 2004,01:50)]For those who have watched the film, follow this link Another view on WPs Troy (http://www.livejournal.com/users/cleolinda/99710.html).

It is... err... a different approach to the story http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif Great description of the movie http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif Specially the "we won't have a movie" and "OUR LADY OF SOUNDTRACK SORROW: WAHHHHHAAAAAHHHHH" parts.

[Red Peasant]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 25 2004,17:02)]
Quote[/b] (hrvojej @ May 25 2004,21:00)]Because they are all just men after all, and the greatest hero is the one who is able to overcome the fear, not the one who has none. Again, chivalric vs. classical myths.
Overcome fear? Have you even read the Illiad? In Homer's account, the fate of man and of Troy was all decided by the gods. Man's courage counted for very little.
If you can dish it out like this mate, you should at least be able to take it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ May 26 2004,19:50)]For those who have watched the film, follow this link Another view on WPs Troy (http://www.livejournal.com/users/cleolinda/99710.html).

It is... err... a different approach to the story http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Hey Rosacrux, thank you so much for that link. It was absolutely hillarious The funniest review I read this year

[Rosacrux]

Well, I started laughing histerically in the office when I read it for the first time... absolutely hilarious. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ May 26 2004,02:50)]For those who have watched the film, follow this link Another view on WPs Troy (http://www.livejournal.com/users/cleolinda/99710.html).

It is... err... a different approach to the story http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Thanks for the link, that was awesome.

[Crimson Castle]

Somewhere on the Battlefield

BLOOD: *sprays*

ODYSSEUS: STOP RUNNING RIGHT UP TO THE ARCHERS, YOU MORONS

AGAMEMNON: RAAAAAA

BLOOD: *spurts*

ODYSSEUS: PULL THEM BACK, MORON OF MORONS

AGAMEMNON: RAAAAAA

BLOOD: *squirts past the camera*

GREEKS: *die*

OUR LADY OF SOUNDTRACK SORROW: WOHHHHHAAAAAHHHHH

Hector gets his ass partially kicked, but manages to kill Sabretooth.

ODYSSEUS: RETREAT, DAMMIT

[Rosacrux]

I particularly ROFLed unable to stop, reading this:

The Beaches of Troy

Achilles’ ship gets there first, because all the other kings are sort of hanging back and filing their nails. Except for Sabretooth Ajax, who tosses one of his oarmen out of the way so he can row faster himself.

PATROCLUS: I wanna go fiiiiiiiight

ACHILLES: Siddown and guard the boat, kid.

EUDORUS: So basically, fifty Myrmidons are going to run out onto the beach with a frillion Trojan archers watching, and no one's got our back.

ACHILLES: Pretty much.

EUDORUS: You wanna do that turtle thing with our shields?

ACHILLES: Nah, I figure I'll wait until half of us get killed before we do that.

EUDORUS: Oh... okay.

Half the Myrmidons get shot just climbing out of the boat. Then they do the turtle thing and charge up the beach. Achilles busts out and starts going Hellenic on the Trojans' asses.

BLOOD: *spurts*

TROJANS: *die*

OTHER GREEK ARMIES: *hang out in the boats*

[hrvojej]

Palace Backyard, Troy

Paris is practicing archery on a nice straw man nailed up to the wall. He hits bull's-eye after bull's-eye.

HELEN: Wow, I had no idea you were so good at this.

PARIS: Neither did I. Weird, isn’t it? And I really want lembas now.

HELEN: What?



Secret Basement of Troy

HECTOR: Honey, things are gonna get real bad. I want you to take the baby and as many of our people down here, through this secret tunnel, and down the river to this secluded mountain where you can hide for a few thousand years while Achilles cools off. Because, trust me, it’s gonna take that long.

ANDROMACHE [weeping]: Why are you telling me this?

HECTOR: Are you even listening to me? I killed Achilles’—cousin. Cousin. Totally his cousin. In conclusion: Cousin—and he is GOING TO KILL ME.

ANDROMACHE: *cries*

HECTOR: Tell me about it.

OUR LADY OF SOUNDTRACK SORROW: WAAAAAHAHHHHHOHHHHH

The more I read it, the more I like it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[econ21]

Reading the 15 min version, I feel I don't need to watch the film. Makes me feel just like I was there in the theatre audience. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Rosacrux]

Couldn't resist posting another snipet

Achilles Calls Hector Out

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR

HECTOR: Oh, shit.

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR

HECTOR: Goodbye, Dad. I tried to be the best son you could have.

PRIAM: *tear*

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR

HECTOR: Goodbye, Andromache. I tried to be the best husband I could be.

ANDROMACHE: *tear*

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR

HECTOR: Goodbye, baby son. I tried to be the best father I could be.

BABY: WAAAAAA

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR

HECTOR: Goodbye, Paris. Make me proud.

PARIS: Oh, way to twist the knife, man.

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR

SMARTASS IN THE AUDIENCE: STELLAAAAAAA

ACHILLES: Shut your mouth or I CUT YOU.

SMARTASS IN THE AUDIENCE: *whimpers*

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR

HECTOR: *puts on his armor slowly and dramatically*

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR

HECTOR: *reads the paper, gets a shoeshine*

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR

HECTOR: I’m here, I’m here Promise me that the loser gets a proper burial.

ACHILLES: Fuck you.

HECTOR: We let Patroclus have a proper burial

ACHILLES: FUCK. YOU.

Hector and Achilles fight. Achilles whales on Hector for about fifteen minutes. Hector gets in one good blow on Achilles’ armor. Then Achilles spears him and stabs him and Hector dies. The Trojan royal family weeps. Achilles hitches Hector’s body up to his chariot and drags it back to Greek-Camp-by-the-Sea.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Red Peasant]

That is damn funny. What better way to mock a mockery of the greatest epic story.