Agamemnon and Hector's Tactics in Troy

[caspian]

As I watched the formation of the Trojan spearmen packed and massed outside the walls of troy, I found myself criticizing Hector's deployment of his troops. No possibility of retreat, no room for maneuvering and no room for flank attack. But he had an ace hidden, the superior and (probably) numerous trojan archers. Well in the end the Trojans routed the Greeks but were afraid of the archers that they didnt annihialted the demoralized Greeks.

Anyway Im just rambling here... What were the thoughts going through your mind while the trojans and greeks clashed shields and spears?

[Drake]

Personally I actually approved of the tactics. You note that Hector gave himself no possibility oif retreat. Well, remember, he really didnt. Troy was his and the army's home. Lose Troy, lose home. It really was a last stand job. Excellent point about the archers. Their elevated position gave them greater range and line of sight, allowing them to fire into ranks behind inital engagment lines, so cutting down reinforcements and allowing the front Trojan lines to handle the attacking Greeks much easier, so the break out was easier. Also, Hector was seriously out numbered and he isnt Hannibal. Given his numerical inferiority, the importance both physically and psychologically of the structure in question, his tactics weren't so much tactical as essential. Movie wasn't bad either, though Brad was a weak Achilles.

[TinCow]

Notice too that in that attack Greek and Trojan discipline was vastly different. The trojans retained a tight hoplite formation (close formation for MTW). The Greeks went in without any unit cohesion (loose formation for MTW). I personally was annoyed by this. All Greek hoplite combat revolved around strict use of the cohesive unit with shield and spear support for each other. This simply did not occur for the Greeks in that attack.

[bighairyman]

Quote[/b] (TinCow @ May 17 2004,11:05)]Notice too that in that attack Greek and Trojan discipline was vastly different. The trojans retained a tight hoplite formation (close formation for MTW). The Greeks went in without any unit cohesion (loose formation for MTW). I personally was annoyed by this. All Greek hoplite combat revolved around strict use of the cohesive unit with shield and spear support for each other. This simply did not occur for the Greeks in that attack.
Did the Greeks use the phalanx back them? (Troy) remember that was before the first dark ages in Greece. So i don't know about did they used the phalanx or not

[TinCow]

Quote[/b] (bighairyman @ May 17 2004,16:21)]
Quote[/b] (TinCow @ May 17 2004,11:05)]Notice too that in that attack Greek and Trojan discipline was vastly different. The trojans retained a tight hoplite formation (close formation for MTW). The Greeks went in without any unit cohesion (loose formation for MTW). I personally was annoyed by this. All Greek hoplite combat revolved around strict use of the cohesive unit with shield and spear support for each other. This simply did not occur for the Greeks in that attack.
Did the Greeks use the phalanx back them? (Troy) remember that was before the first dark ages in Greece. So i don't know about did they used the phalanx or not
Ah You're right, I forgot that. Trojan War was much earlier than basic hoplite combat.

[SnakeCharmer]

From Sun Tzu's the Art of War

If you have no place to go it is fatal terrain.
Where one fights with intensity he will survive but if he does not fight with intensity he will perish, it is fatal terrain.
On fatal terrain engage in battle.

Seems to me that Hector used good strategy. His troops had no retreat and therefore would have to fight or die. When faced with certain death a man tends to fight his hardest I would think.

I thought Brad Pitt was a good Achilles.

[Cebei]

I dont think we can speak of a very flexible or orhestrated tactic in Troy. It seemed like two masses of spearmen charging each other with archer fire behind.

[Crimson Castle]

I thought it was a reasonable adaptation.

Remember that in The Greek Poet Homer's mythology - it was highly stylized - the warriors made heavy use of chariots like flinging them across trenches and ramparts. That seemed a little unrealistic imho. But then again when you have supernatural Greek gods aiding you physically - whose to complain eh? :)

[squippy]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 18 2004,20:23)]Remember that in The Greek Poet Homer's mythology - it was highly stylized - the warriors made heavy use of chariots like flinging them across trenches and ramparts. That seemed a little unrealistic imho. But then again when you have supernatural Greek gods aiding you physically - whose to complain eh? :)
Oh, I dunno - reconstructed Celtic chariots are light enough to pick up with one hand.

[garion]

Greek tactics were mainly based on phalanx deploiment with overlapping shields. cavalry were mainly used to attack the enemy in the back, and with hector having troy to his back he ruled out this opportunity fot the greeks

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 18 2004,20:23)]I thought it was a reasonable adaptation.

Remember that in The Greek Poet Homer's mythology - it was highly stylized - the warriors made heavy use of chariots like flinging them across trenches and ramparts. That seemed a little unrealistic imho. But then again when you have supernatural Greek gods aiding you physically - whose to complain eh? :)
Problem is: historically, war chariots were commonly used in Mycenean warfare. Not unrealistic at all. In the movie, only the infantry is fighting, which is a bit unrealistic. In fact, Homer's conception was closer to Hoplite warfare than to the real historical Mycenean period warfare.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (garion @ May 19 2004,03:03)]Greek tactics were mainly based on phalanx deploiment with overlapping shields. cavalry were mainly used to attack the enemy in the back, and with hector having troy to his back he ruled out this opportunity fot the greeks
Remember:

-Greek Hoplite-style warfare was invented after 800BC.
-Troy was destroyed during the Mycenean period by the Acheans (Bronze Age Greeks) in about 1250BC.

[mambaman]

hey all good stuff guys-i'm off to see the film tomorrow so i'll see what you're all on about-i hear that Bana steals the show.......bring it on

[Oaty]

I always thought that Achilles was a myth. Did Achilles participate in the battle for Troy or did they just decide to throw this character in for movie purposes

[efx]

Oh, all the characters are pretty much based on myth. There's very little evidence to suggest that the battle actually happened. It's all just a good story written by homer :)

[garion]

Troy was destroyed at least a dozen times.
If we believe that the story is true at all, I can tell you that achilles was in the story (and the true hero on greek side)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (efx @ May 20 2004,23:31)]Oh, all the characters are pretty much based on myth. There's very little evidence to suggest that the battle actually happened. It's all just a good story written by homer :)
Yes, quite correct. It's a fictional poem that became one of the basis for western culture.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Quote[/b] ]Yes, quite correct. It's a fictional poem that became one of the basis for western culture.

That is still a matter of conjecture. The history channel seems to think it really happened.

[Bhruic]

Well, I suspect that Homer used a real event for the basis of his epic. But at the same time, I suspect that the way it happened is quite different than the way he wrote it.

Bh

[Gawain of Orkeny]

He He you don't think the gods really came down and got involved? You don't believe that Achilles was half god? Blasphemer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Its off to hades with you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Bhruic]

Oh, I'm sure all of that stuff happened. It's just some of the battles and things between ordinary mortals. I mean, come on, like the Gods wouldn't interfere http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Bh

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Oh you had me worried there for a minute. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (Bhruic @ May 22 2004,08:28)]Oh, I'm sure all of that stuff happened. It's just some of the battles and things between ordinary mortals. I mean, come on, like the Gods wouldn't interfere http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Bh
It rpobably did, but we have to think at the numbers, The acheans and trojans were probably few in numbers, maybe 5.000 on each side. The first nine years were probably spent in surprise assaults and skirmishes.

[garion]

actually the acheans had an army of 120000 men moved in 1186 ships, so there were plenty of men to spill

[Nowake]

phh, sources?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Gawain of Orkeny @ May 21 2004,21:47)]
Quote[/b] ]Yes, quite correct. It's a fictional poem that became one of the basis for western culture.

That is still a matter of conjecture. The history channel seems to think it really happened.
You didn't understood. The Iliad is a fictional work. The Trojan war is an historical event. It is believed he based a fictional story (fictional characters) in the events of the Trojan war (historical event).

[garion]

yeah, I think that the gods didn't play such an important role in the real troyan war

[garion]

Citaat[/b] (Nowake @ Mei 22 2004,04:53)]phh, sources?
http://capitein.xs4all.nl/griekse_mythologie/de_trojaanse_oorlog/de_trojaanse_oorlog.htm, but it's kinda in dutch. it also states that the trojans didn't fight alone at all, but were aided by tracians (bulgaria), lyceans(turkey) and even ethiopians

[Colovion]

One of the biggest things I disliked about Troy was that it made you feel like the whole war happened in about two weeks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif I realize that it's the movies but I can't get over it. It was all very confusing for my friend who hadn't read the Iliad - he was always asking questions and scoffing at the events. It was a good movie - but couldn't been MUCH better.

[Maedhros]

I expected a lot more to happen in 2h40m. I hoped the full length would pass. The horse just seemed to rear its head oversoon.

But the movie was enjoyable. I want to go see it again sometime.

[Colovion]

Yeah I felt that the last 30 mins or so were VERY rushed - getting loads of stuff out of the way like Achilles and Hector's battle, then suddenly the horse is thought of and BAM the movie's over. I guess it deserved being more of an epic battle and a very long movie but the production company didn't allow that - they rarely do. I mean Lord of the Rings, Miramax wanted them to do the whole thing in one movie... maybe two. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif You can't get the same impact from what they did as what they should've done - but yea it was entertaining.

[CountMRVHS]

We just saw it today and were very excited with all the previews, etc. It looked like it was going to be a great, fun movie.

But why, dear God *why*, must Hollywood oversentimentalize (if that's a word) every precious second of their movie??

The writing was pretty terrible, for the most part. Agamemnon was way overdone as the greedy tyrant. And Brad Pitt played the ninja Achilles. Hrmn.

And the music, did anyone else notice that the music seemed like they just ripped it off from some movie made in the 70s? With the exception of some drum parts and the ululating (?) Arabic person, it sounded very cheesy.

One good thing was that we got to see the preview for that new King Arthur movie. Looks like they've actually put Arthur in a post-Roman Britain setting, which is unique. Do any of you British/European people know more about that movie? I'm looking forward to it; hopefully it will be a little better done and a little more fun than Troy was for me...

CountMRVHS

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Here try out this link for Arthur

http://kingarthur.movies.go.com/main.html

[Colovion]

Yeah King Arthur looks good

I agree that Agamemnon was overdone as the greedy tyrant - I read the Iliad a while ago.... he never came across like that to me or maybe I read his character wrong. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Bhruic]

Well, the problem was they didn't use the Illiad reason for the war, so they had to come up with something else. Nasty old Agamemnon seemed to be their something else. Personally, I thought he got a bit of a bum rap in the movie, but at least he didn't get killed by his wife, so that's a bit of a plus.

The actor I thought did the best job was the guy who played Hector. Came across almost exactly the way I imagined him. And his role wasn't Hollywood-ized as much as some.

Bh

[Colovion]

Personally I thought that Hector was one of the best actors BUT I always thought of Hector as being bigger - and didn't he have an awesome suit of armour? I never saw anything spectacular.... so many things they left out.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-zzz.gif

[garion]

the problem is taht in the movie they did want to bring mythology and stuff in, but left the paris judgement out. what do you want us to see, the real war or the ancient greek story?

[Degtyarev14.5]

That actor who played Hector was the Aussie Eric Bana. He spent a few years on a Channel Seven skit show - Full Frontal - before he made his leap of faith into Hollywood - and unlike most, he actually succeeded

For those unaware, he also played the Hulk

Most who start out in such fashion end up with a small town career, perhaps winding up in a sitcom with a few little-known movies under their belt. I say kudos to Eric, and wish him all the best in future http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

A.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (ArseClown @ May 23 2004,05:47)]For those unaware, he also played the Hulk
No, he didn't. He played Bruce Banner. The Hulk is a CG creation... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif

BTW, you all should check the Monastery's thread on the film Troy:

Troy (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=3;t=18312)

[Seven.the.Hun]

i did like it that there were no 'gods' in the movie, only the human element...and they only 'spoke' of these gods here and there, different than some other movies about these times, and nicely done i thought
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

[Bhruic]

Really? That's the thing I disliked the most about the movie. I mean, the whole plot of the Illiad is set up by the contest between the goddesses. You throw that out, it's just not the same anymore.

Bh

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Quote[/b] ] did like it that there were no 'gods' in the movie, only the human element...and they only 'spoke' of these gods here and there, different than some other movies about these times, and nicely done i thought

Thats what ruined the movie for me. You are missing half the story and characters. The best part of the movie is when Achilles talks about the gods. Its the inter cation between men and gods that makes the Illiad so facinating.

[Colovion]

Personally, one thing that really irks me about massive movies like this is that after they are made and released everyone watches them and a lot of the time they aren't as good as they could've been. I mean I don't think that Troy could be made into a decent movie in under 3 hours - or at least it would be a cinematic masterpiece if they did do it. What's annoying is that I highly doubt that we'll ever see another Troy, Timeline, Hulk.... the list goes on. there are many movies that the makers of them made a decent movie - but it probably doesn't satisfy their most core fans. Kudos to trying - but if you can't do something correctly then it kind of ruins it for the future for if someone tries to do it again. They won't be another Troy movie, and where this one was good, it wasn't great as it should've been. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[garion]

They'll probably try to make a movie of homerus sequel 'the odysee' and in that original story the mythological events and fantasy elements are so great thta you can't keep them out of the movie

[Colovion]

Oh yeah one more thing:

what I've noticed is that in two of the most recent epic battle movies (Troy/Last Samurai) the people that end up losing are the honorable and commendable figures in the films whereas the victors are nothing more than overbearing and almost unhuman figures. In both Troy and The Last Samurai I was left with a feeling of I wish the other side would've won. I think that the directors of both movies either had anti-war sentiments in general so they tempered their films towards the aspect that everyone is human and there's no reason to do war on such terms - or that both directors wanted to romance the losing side and make you root for the underdogs... The Last Samurai was one of the saddest movies I've ever seen. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-embarassed.gif

/rant

[garion]

the eternal struggle of hollywood version real history. in the iliad achilles and hector both have negative and positive sides of there character and you feel for each side a number of times during the battle, but hollywood feels that sympathy for the underdog gets more people to the cinemas so they exploit that

[Anselm]

I thought it was a good film.

Hectors tactics were sensible and just about his only option. Thinking back, he couldn't retreat because of the city behind him but then city walls also swept forwards either side of his army preventing them from being flanked. It was actually a handy little spot.

Good point about archers btw I'd forgetten about them.

Anselm

[Bhruic]

Quote[/b] (garion @ May 22 2004,16:11)]the eternal struggle of hollywood version real history. in the iliad achilles and hector both have negative and positive sides of there character and you feel for each side a number of times during the battle, but hollywood feels that sympathy for the underdog gets more people to the cinemas so they exploit that
I thought the movie made a strong Achilles is just misunderstood point. If anything, I think they made him more sympathetic than he was in the Illiad. Does no one else remember the necrophilia with the Amazon queen he killed? Not that I expected that to be in the movie. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Bh

[English assassin]

At one level I got a bit annoyed with the way the film played around with a perfectly good story (Agamemnon's motivation for the war being the prime example: in Homer the Greeks are all sworn by oath to defend Menelaus as the husband of Helen due to some typically crafty manoeuvering by Odysseus.)

But then I cut them some slack. After all we have very different values to the Greeks who would have first heard Homer's stories. The bits we relate to now are probably very different to the bits the Greeks most valued. After all the basic plot of the Iliad doesn't exactly reflect well on anyone by modern standards. (King annoyed at having to give up slave girl he has captured, pinches other slave girl, mighty warrior then sulks allowing thousands of his countrymen to be killed until his best mate buys it, whereupon he kills a poor sap who is trying to defend his own country and mutilates his body in front of his parents. Would you invite any of these people out for a beer?)

All things considered they did a better job than I expected (though they shouldn't have killed Menelaus)

[mfberg]

They didn't give the heroes good armor Why where they heroes? Because ...
1 They were better trained and stronger and
2 They had armor Bronze armor friggin' torso covering, curved to deflect blows armor Expensive armor Armor made for the man.

What I liked was the hero - hero combat, especially during battle.What I didn't was the timespan, they could have at least put a 10 years later on the screen. And of course I wanted to see more armor than that on Hector and Achilles.

mfberg

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Colovion @ May 23 2004,14:55)]Personally, one thing that really irks me about massive movies like this is that after they are made and released everyone watches them and a lot of the time they aren't as good as they could've been. I mean I don't think that Troy could be made into a decent movie in under 3 hours - or at least it would be a cinematic masterpiece if they did do it. What's annoying is that I highly doubt that we'll ever see another Troy, Timeline, Hulk.... the list goes on. there are many movies that the makers of them made a decent movie - but it probably doesn't satisfy their most core fans. Kudos to trying - but if you can't do something correctly then it kind of ruins it for the future for if someone tries to do it again. They won't be another Troy movie, and where this one was good, it wasn't great as it should've been. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
A very interesting post. I share some of these concerns too.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (garion @ May 23 2004,15:11)]the eternal struggle of hollywood version real history. in the iliad achilles and hector both have negative and positive sides of there character and you feel for each side a number of times during the battle, but hollywood feels that sympathy for the underdog gets more people to the cinemas so they exploit that
Very well explained. It is just like that.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (English assassin @ May 24 2004,10:15)](King annoyed at having to give up slave girl he has captured, pinches other slave girl, mighty warrior then sulks allowing thousands of his countrymen to be killed until his best mate buys it, whereupon he kills a poor sap who is trying to defend his own country and mutilates his body in front of his parents. Would you invite any of these people out for a beer?)
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif I think not...

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (Gawain of Orkeny @ May 24 2004,03:20)]
Quote[/b] ] did like it that there were no 'gods' in the movie, only the human element...and they only 'spoke' of these gods here and there, different than some other movies about these times, and nicely done i thought

Thats what ruined the movie for me. You are missing half the story and characters. The best part of the movie is when Achilles talks about the gods. Its the inter cation between men and gods that makes the Illiad so facinating.
But how are you going to add the element of the gods into the movie without it degenerating into a Xena/Hercules spinoff? I mean seriously - who are you going to cast as Zeus, Here, Apollo, Athena etc... How are you going to depict the gods actively playing a major role in the battle?

And in the end the gods sell out Troy because they get worried that they might not get enough sacrifices if both
sides kill each other? Cmon

It was a tale of the Trojan wars with some inspiration from Homer and Virgil's works. I personally thought it was a reasonable good adaptation. And the actor who played the part of the Greek King was magnificent. It was absolutely delicious military comedy to see the Greek King being lauded for his victory on the beach.

Some of the dialogue fell flat of course, and the music score sucked... but it was generally speaking a good movie. Watching the scene where the Trojans threw their spears into the enemy's shields and attacked them with their swords was magnificient.