Cannons and Fear

[Shamus]

For the first time I am actually at a point where I can use cannons (usually I play early and if I finish a game, that happens before the invention of gunpowder). I remember reading months ago that cannons and guns are best used for scaring the enemy. So far I have tried out using bombards and demi-culverins. Neither seem very adept at killing enemy units. Certainly not enough enemy units to warrant using a cannon unit in place of another unit, simply for killing purposes. The cannon’s help must therefore come in the form of frightening the enemy. But how well do they frighten the enemy? Does anyone know a quantifiable amount of fear that cannons (and gunners for that matter) can instil the enemy?

As quick separate aside, could someone please explain if there is a useful way in which to use gun units?

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[katank]

they inflict something like -4 IIRC.

use them in defensive battles.

esp. bridges.

point a few barrels fown the bridge and they will be a lot less keen on trying to cross.

setting up crossfires if you can is also a good idea.

culverins and serpentines work even better though.

[Crash]

I used culverins once in an attack. My Turkish army invaded Egypt, which was held by the Spanish, who had some pretty good troops - including arbalesters and halbediers. I put the three culverins as far forward as possible and put my missile units all around them. I held my heavy calvary in reserve for counter-attacks.

I pounded the enemy line with the culverin, but my troops stayed put. Eventually they attempted to advance, but they met a hail of arrows, while my calvary threatened to flank them. They eventually got demoralized and routed off the field even though they had not sustained a lot of casualties. Standing, advancing and retreating for a long time under the desert sun probably added to their distress.

[Shahed]

I always use 4-6 serpentines in my Late Turkish armies. They have always been very effective and I use them as long range archers basically. Bombarding the enemy, once they are out of ammo I withdraw them and replace them with 4-6 Sipahi, Armenians, or Turcomans, or of course a mixture of the 3. They do scare the enemy and one direct hit from all 6 serpentines can insta-rout a normal unit.

I do not use them for the fear factor but rather because I find it fun and amusing to replicate vaguely historical-accurate armies in MTW. For the Turks achieving this is easier than with most factions. An example of one of my late era Turk Armies:

-2 Sipahi of the Porte or Ghulam Bodyguard
(including General)
-4 Janissary Heavy Infantry
-6 Serpentines
-4 Ottoman Infantry

Once the Serpentines are out of ammo I withdraw them and replace them with cavalry. For this example let's use:

-4 Turcoman Horse
-2 Ottoman Sipahi

As you can see there are no archers in this example, the artillery is meant to damage the enemy using gunpowder rather than arrows.

[motorhead]

also see this cannon thread (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=18286) for more info

[Daveybaby]

Bear in mind that, as with pre-gunpowder artillery, low valour cannons will be horrendously inaccurate. You have to train them up to the point where they will actually hit what theyre aiming at once in a while.

[Shamus]

One thing I have noticed is that cannons tend to fire more accurately, when shooting at a wall. I just completed a siege, and found that many of my shots were fairly accurate if I was shooting at a wall. However, as soon as I went to shoot at a unit of men within the walls, my shots went all over the place.

[squippy]

Its quite viable to use culverins and serpentines to make a defensive position adopted by the AI untenable, as Sinan describes. I have even seen whole armies (of inferior troops) either rout or withdraw after coming under fire and not having a way to respond.

[Crash]

Quote[/b] (Sinan @ May 17 2004,18:47)]As you can see there are no archers in this example, the artillery is meant to damage the enemy using gunpowder rather than arrows.
One of the best things about the Turkish units is that they are mostly archers - Ottoman Infantry, Turcoman Horse, and Sipahpi of the Porte, but they can fight like infantry and calvary as well.

I forgot to mention that the in my atack with 3 culverin, I also had 3 units of arqebusiers, so the fear/morale effect of my army was quite high. That's why the enemy units always ran away when they advanced within range of the arq's. The Ottoman infantry and Turcoman Horse poured arrows on the Spanish, while the Ottoman Sipahi and Ghulam Calvary pursued the routed units after the culverin pounded the arbalesters and halbediers. The Ottoman Infanry and Turcoman Horse are quite useful in pursuit also.

The firepower of a late Turkish army makes it possible for them to win even without JHI.

[katank]

well, that's why gunpowder is good against mass formations.

if they are advancing in ranks, even if you don't hit the unit you are aiming at, you will likely hit something else.

that's why I almost always aim slightly front of center of the enemy army to inflict maximum damage.

the widest shots usually manage to still clip their flanks a bit.

@crash, this is why I love the Turks also in being able to field 8+ missiles routinely and not haivng to worry about them being overrun as they are actually quite capable in melee.

JHI is still good though for their fast speed and incredible melee which can finish off the only things that can reach your lines in reasonable numbers to be a threat (heavy cav).

also, they are good for pursuing inf as they are fast for inf.

[Apocalyp$e]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 17 2004,12:57)]...use them in defensive battles....
I disagree. I prefer to use cannons in attacks, I use catpults for defence because they have more ammo than cannons, better aim, and the shots bounce and roll around a lot inflicting HUGE amounts of casualties. Cannons just dont do the job for me at all, except in attacks where their long range can hit a distant, defending enemy...

[Shamus]

I learned about the joy of using cannons in an attack yesterday. In the past I never played in an age late enough to get gunpowder units, and manual siege units generally don’t have the range to attack defending armies.

Using three culverins with valor 4, and two serpentines with valor 4, I pummeled the defensive lines of an Egyptian army (I was the Spanish). They shifted and moved in an attempt to get out of range of my cannons, but to no avail. By the time my cannons were out of ammo I had killed about 125 of their men, their general was nowhere to be seen, and their two mangonels were lying in pieces on the ground. I then marched my army forward to meet the Egyptians. The enemy had obviously decided that they had seen enough, and routed before I was within bow range.

I have used siege equipment defensively in the past, but using it offensively is much more fun. The enemy either has to sit there taking casualties and moral damage, or they must march on your position, giving you the defensive edge.

[katank]

well, I still believe in cannon defense.

I love catapults too but can't justify it over packs of culvs and serpentines which can take potshots at the approaching enemy from across the map and by the time their tired, general-less mess reach my lines, they almost instant rout and let my cav get nice captures.

Well, in any attacks using cannons, you pretty much turn it into a defense anyhow by forcing them to march on you.

either way, it degenerates into a massed arty defense which is awesome for the pure slaughter.

[Daveybaby]

I had an entertaining experience last night.

Playing turks, performing a bridge defense in Navarre against the spanish. Noticed i had 2 merc organ guns in my lineup, so put them on either side of my end of the bridge at 45 degree angles.

Oh. My. God.

First AI unit across the bridge was 100 brand new shiny chivalric sergeants. As they reach the end, both guns fire, the chivs are instantly reduced to 27 men who immediately proceed to rout. 73 kills in one volley. Niiiice.

Same happens with the next unit to attempt to cross. After that things get a bit messy - the slow reload rate means that i have to engage with some saracen inf to hold the line - and i'm pretty sure those inf took some friendly fire in the ensuing scrap. But never mind - i'm pretty sure i killed well over 500 men with the final 3 volleys from the organ guns - there were quite a few enemy units packed onto that bridge (although the 4 units of merc longbows + 2 pav arbs opening up at the same time may have contributed *slightly* to the slaughter).

Edit : oh, forgot to mention that one of those units was the spanish king, who left no heirs and thus trashed an empire stretching from north africa to normandy (navarre was my beachhead into the iberian peninsula, spanish were trying to break the siege).