Nailing that withdrawing one-man general unit

[WorkNeglecter]

Everyone knows there's nothing worse than that 1-man jedi enemy general who withdraws from the battle before it even starts. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

I mean, he leaves the field and his army gets the bonuses and you've got no way of taking them down.

However, sometimes it's a foot unit, and that means you have a chance to capture him. That's what this story is about.

Last night I was defending Constantinople with 600 poor-quality Hungarian troops (4-star RK general) against 1600 Egyptians (9-star killer expert attacker 1-man Saracen Infantry).

I saw on the pre-battle screen that the general was a one-man foot soldier unit, so I thought that if I could get behind enemy lines with a cav unit I could take him down.

I placed all my troops as far back as possible, except for the cav (20 RK and 2 full HA units) at the forward right and left points in the deployment area.

I was able to flank the cavalry around the bulk of the enemy army and sure enough there was that lone general running away off the field. I plowed into him with all my cav units.

He managed to fight his way through my cav and off the field and the rest of the army, strengthened by those ridiculous bonuses, crushed my troops.

I reloaded the battle, tried the same maneuver, and this time took the general down. The rest of the battle was easy: I routed them time and time again (on expert, too) and killed or captured almost 1000.

I thought I'd let him live in the hopes he'd command another army and I could try the same maneuver...

Anyone else tried this maneuver?

[SpencerH]

I always thought the bonuses left when the general left the field?

[NewJeffCT]

No, I have never done that - I've tried to run them down, but never quite make it... it's a cheesy tactic that is balanced by the AI's stupidity of defending or attacking over 1 bridge in a 2 bridge province.

What I hate is when a 1 horse unit general Kataphratoi with 9 stars is surrounded by my unit of a 16-18 royal knights and 30+ mounted sergeants and the Kat manages to power his way out of being surrounded and then he outruns them all off the screen You'll see him being trailed by 1 or 2 mtd sergeants and 1 royal knight with the rest falling behind...

I thought Kats ran at like 16 or 18, while royal knights or ghulams moved several faster like 20 to 24? and mtd sergeants were faster still?

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (SpencerH @ May 21 2004,10:37)]I always thought the bonuses left when the general left the field?
The army loses their morale bonus from the general's stars, but it seems, their attack and defense bonuses remain once the general leaves.

If I see I jedi general in the battle preview screen, I place some fast units near the center of the map and make them run behind the enemy army as soon as the battle starts. I have been able to get that cowardly loner a few times. Mounted crossbowen have done the job a couple times as well: i.e., I run them between the map border and the withdrawing guy and shoot him down.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (NewJeffCT @ May 21 2004,10:39)]No, I have never done that - I've tried to run them down, but never quite make it... it's a cheesy tactic that is balanced by the AI's stupidity of defending or attacking over 1 bridge in a 2 bridge province.

What I hate is when a 1 horse unit general Kataphratoi with 9 stars is surrounded by my unit of a 16-18 royal knights and 30+ mounted sergeants and the Kat manages to power his way out of being surrounded and then he outruns them all off the screen You'll see him being trailed by 1 or 2 mtd sergeants and 1 royal knight with the rest falling behind...

I thought Kats ran at like 16 or 18, while royal knights or ghulams moved several faster like 20 to 24? and mtd sergeants were faster still?
I don't think, the kat actually 'outruns' the attackers: simply, attackers and the fleer are both running. The attacker has to run at the same speed as the fleer to land a blow: otherwise he will run past the target.

On a different note, a jedi kat general probably has 9+ valor which gives him extaordinary defense: i.e., every time a mounted sergeant strikes the kat, a roll is made for a kill. Given the kat's high defense, the kill chance is low. And, while running, the chance to land a blow is even lower (I think it should be lower).

One should consider another fact: a withdrawing jedi is not ROUTING, therefore the usual routing unit uber-high defense penalties do not apply: he has the same defenses as a normal unit in combat - the pursuers just get bonuses for attacking from the rear/flank which shouldn't change much due to the high valor of the target.

Finally, since the jedi is a general, he has 'a few lives' compared to an average soldier. This means, the mounted sergeants have to have several successful 'kill' rolls in order to get him down...

On a side note, it's only 2 (or 3: not sure about this) warriors (individuals) that can attack any other warrior at the same time in the game. So, in fact, it's only 2/3 pursuers that actually get the job done (unless they're killed an replaced): so you hope, they are the highest valor guys from the pursuing company ;)

In my experience, missiles are better in killing fleeing jedis. And mounted crossbowmen are perfectly suited to deliver these babies far into the enemy's rear early in the battle: train them/use them If you cannot build them: hire mercs :)

[WorkNeglecter]

Quote[/b] (NewJeffCT @ May 21 2004,17:39)]it's a cheesy tactic
I don't agree; in any battle, killing the enemy general is one way to turn the tide of an uneven battle. In expert it's even more important, because the enemy doesn't break easily (+4 morale bonus).

Less cheesy than withdrawing your own jedi general to keep him from getting damaged, which I would not do.

Maybe more cheesy was my replay, but, like your experience with the kats, explain to me how a single Saracen infantryman can run 200 metres while being attacked by 20 Royal Knights, shrugging them off and killing a few in the process?

[NewJeffCT]

Sorry - I did not mean it was a cheesy tactic on your part - I think it is cheesy that the AI withdraws their 1 man general unit and then his army gets to keep their bonuses.

I always keep my army general on the board, even if it is a 1 man general unit. I just don't see it as realistic that your general runs away and his troops stay behind.

[katank]

in response, 1 man can fight at most 2 man at a time and hence you can have jedis fighting through hundreds due to many lives.

missiles are definitely the best as there is no limit to arrows and bolts as well as javs that can slam into a unit at once.

naptha or arty is even better as it doesn't matter that he has many lives, if he's hit, he's dead.

also, the katanks have 14 run 16 charge and the knights have 20/22, so do mtd. sarges.

mtd. sarges aren't faster but may seem faster in battle due to having less armor and tiring less than your knights.

[Oaty]

I remember having 40 Saharan cavalry just for the purpose of chasing routers. Well I had routed the army except for the general wich I believe was the king or a prince. So I figured why use the Saharans on those routing men and instead save themin case the general breaks out. Well he routes and breaks out and the Saharans are right there. They start chasing him down and too the A.I.'s amusement that Kat slaughtered 20 Saharans while routing and routed the Saharans themslves.

This also tought me a good lesson as I have found 1 unit in cavalry that is superb in taking out routing Kats. Wait until you hear this one, ok get ready to laugh, Lithuanian cavalry. They have enough speed to catch those pesky kats amd yet have enough power to deliver the catching blow. So whenever I bribe those Lithuanians I make sure they make a b-line for the Byzantine front. Of course teching up to them is a bit of a joke.

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (oaty @ May 22 2004,08:16)]I remember having 40 Saharan cavalry just for the purpose of chasing routers. Well I had routed the army except for the general wich I believe was the king or a prince. So I figured why use the Saharans on those routing men and instead save themin case the general breaks out. Well he routes and breaks out and the Saharans are right there. They start chasing him down and too the A.I.'s amusement that Kat slaughtered 20 Saharans while routing and routed the Saharans themslves.

This also tought me a good lesson as I have found 1 unit in cavalry that is superb in taking out routing Kats. Wait until you hear this one, ok get ready to laugh, Lithuanian cavalry. They have enough speed to catch those pesky kats amd yet have enough power to deliver the catching blow. So whenever I bribe those Lithuanians I make sure they make a b-line for the Byzantine front. Of course teching up to them is a bit of a joke.
Faris are just as good oaty http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[solypsist]

aha, I wondered what the point of seeing that enemy general fleeing was. happened to me for a few battles, and my defending men would rout despite having all the advantages.

[katank]

lith cav?

LMAO.

what about szeks, they are 24/26. I think they also have the speed to not only catch the katanks but also knights.

also, everyone laughs at saharan cav but at V2 from cyrenacia (with master horse), they actually have 4 base attack and thus quite strong and speedy at the same time.

just charge the katank general from the flanks or rear and they shoudl be able to nail him.

[Oaty]

As far as Faris go who can train them. As far as szekely(Hungarian horse archers) who can train them. Lithuanian cavalry at least the catholic factions can train them but I believe all factions can. I only teched up to them once but it is an easily bribable as it seems the factions usually push the rebels to Lithuania and you can usually find about 3 units of them in the stack.

I've also tried hobilars before but they also get killed easily chasing routin kats

[katank]

well, steppe heavies everyone can get.

also, avar nobles will do the job well.

they can even knock out equal valor katank head on.

steppe heavies are 1 better in attack and 1 better in defense than lith cav and have lower reqs.

lith cav requirements are so crazy, you might as well build chiv knights at that tech level.

also, alan mercs can do a better job esp. if you get some armor for them.

I modded in alans in khazar and georgia with horse guild and they are great.