Historical European BD

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Most esteemed forum members, I salute you for conceding me your precious TW time by reading this post. I am unsure of the reasons for making such a presentation. Maybe curiosity about the reading habits of the forum members has lead me to it. Maybe it was the the prospect of sharing opinions about the delightfull artwok and scripting of high-quality Historical BD, that has pushed me into asking for comments. Maybe because I just want to publicize these authors... ...I will probably never know. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking.gif

Whatever the reasons for such an act, here I present some information about three Historical series of two very well known European BD authors. These authors are part of the Golden Generation of the late 70's - early 80's, that includes the likes of Jean Giraud (Blueberry series), Möebius (The Long Tomorrow, Le Garage Hermétique, Arzach, L'Incal, Le Monde d'Edena), Enki Bilal (La Croisière des Oubliés, Partie de Chasse, La Foire aux Imortels, La Fémme Piége), Jean Claude Meziéres (Valerian), etc...

As I was refering, these are fictional stories based on specific periods of History. From the 18th century (Les Passagers du Vent) to the Medieval Ages and the Crusades (Les Compagnons du Crepuscule and Les Tours de Bois Maury). Some are exclusivelly based on reality (Les Passagers du Vent), the others have some legendary related plots (Les Compagnons du Crepuscule, Les Tours de Bois Maury). IMHO, all of them exquisitelly drawn and masterfully written. I tend to lean a bit more to Bourgeon's masterworks, but Hermann's saga is awesome too.

So, effectivelly I would like to know how many of you have read them and what did you think of the albums? If you never read them, tell me why? If you didn't know they even existed, tell me what do you think of such kind of titles (BTW, you don't know what you've been missing).

Word of warning (specially for our American Comic Book fans): This isn't for kids. No men in thights with big muscles and leaping over buildings. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink3.gif Only read and consult the links, if you're mature enough to read literature inspired works... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif


François Bourgeon Information (http://www.lambiek.net/bourgeon.htm)


Les Compagnons du Crepuscule by François Burgeon (1986-1990)

Les Compagnons du Crepuscule - Volume 1 - Le sortilège du bois des brumes (http://www.arnould.net/bd/compag01.htm)

Les Compagnons du Crepuscule - Volume 2 - Les yeux d'étain de la ville glauque (http://www.arnould.net/bd/compag02.htm)

Les Compagnons du Crepuscule - Volume 3 - Le dernier chant des Malaterre (http://www.arnould.net/bd/compag03.htm)


Les Passagers du Vent by François Burgeon (1979-1984)

Les Passagers du Vent - Volume 1 - La fille sous la dunette (http://www.arnould.net/bd/pasven01.htm)

Les Passagers du Vent - Volume 2 - Le ponton (http://www.arnould.net/bd/pasven02.htm)

Les Passagers du Vent - Volume 3 - Le comptoir de Juda (http://www.arnould.net/bd/pasven03.htm)

Les Passagers du Vent - Volume 4 - L'heure du serpent (http://www.arnould.net/bd/pasven04.htm)

Les Passagers du Vent - Volume 5 - Le bois d'ébène (http://www.arnould.net/bd/pasven05.htm)



Hermann Huppen Information (http://www.lambiek.net/hermann.htm)


Les Tours de Bois Maury by Hermann

Les Tours de Bois Maury - Volume 1 - Babette (http://www.arnould.net/bd/maury01.htm)

Les Tours de Bois Maury - Volume 2 - Eloïse de Montgri (http://www.arnould.net/bd/maury02.htm)

Les Tours de Bois Maury - Volume 3 - Germain (http://www.arnould.net/bd/maury03.htm)

Les Tours de Bois Maury - Volume 4 - Reinhardt (http://www.arnould.net/bd/maury04.htm)

Les Tours de Bois Maury - Volume 5 - Alda (http://www.arnould.net/bd/maury05.htm)

Les Tours de Bois Maury - Volume 6 - Sigurd (http://www.arnould.net/bd/maury06.htm)

Les Tours de Bois Maury - Volume 7 - William (http://www.arnould.net/bd/maury07.htm)

Les Tours de Bois Maury - Volume 8 - Le Seldjouki (http://www.arnould.net/bd/maury08.htm)

Les Tours de Bois Maury - Volume 9 - Kahled (http://www.arnould.net/bd/maury09.htm)

Les Tours de Bois Maury - Volume 10 - Olivier (http://www.arnould.net/bd/maury10.htm)



Please present your views, before these spoken thoughts are engulfed by the mists of forgetfullness...

[Tricky Lady]

This looks *really* interesting. Gotta watch for these titles next time I visit a BD shop...

I must confess I've never heard of any of these titles. I regularly buy BD, usually stories with a historical background.

For instance:
Murena (http://www.bedetheque.com/index.php?S=402) (Rome - Nero)

Le Scorpion (http://www.ifrance.com/trebaldi/) (XVIIIth Century Rome)

Bruce J. Hawker (http://ivor.9online.fr/series/bdhawkeralbums.htm) (Napoleonic - Maritime)

La Croix de Cazenac (http://www.bedetheque.com/index.php?S=642) (WW I - France)

And this one I just post because I think it's so beautifully drawn (no historical background or so):
Blacksad (http://www.bedetheque.com/index.php?S=500)

Must add that I read all these BD in Dutch, not in French.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[The Wizard]

Happy to see that these are in Dutch as well, but...

What is BD? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

BTW... best drawn comics I've yet seen are either Asterix (historical BD.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif) or Spawn...



~Wiz

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Can't read French. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif Well, can read most of it but not understand but a little. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
_

[Tricky Lady]

BD = bande dessinée = +- comic
(stripverhaal in Dutch)

Sorry Mouzaphaerre, I've been searching for English sites but always bumped on French ones... I'll have another look.

PS. Wow Nice new avatar. Congratulations http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
(me still 64 posts to go. The One Word Story is calling me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif )


EDIT: I can't count http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Tricky Lady @ May 22 2004,06:41)]This looks *really* interesting. Gotta watch for these titles next time I visit a BD shop...

I must confess I've never heard of any of these titles. I regularly buy BD, usually stories with a historical background.

For instance:
Murena (http://www.bedetheque.com/index.php?S=402) (Rome - Nero)

Le Scorpion (http://www.ifrance.com/trebaldi/) (XVIIIth Century Rome)

Bruce J. Hawker (http://ivor.9online.fr/series/bdhawkeralbums.htm) (Napoleonic - Maritime)

La Croix de Cazenac (http://www.bedetheque.com/index.php?S=642) (WW I - France)

And this one I just post because I think it's so beautifully drawn (no historical background or so):
Blacksad (http://www.bedetheque.com/index.php?S=500)

Must add that I read all these BD in Dutch, not in French.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Hi, Tricky Lady http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

It's quite strange that, being interested in Historical BD, you do not know these series. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif They are classicaly aclaimed as some of the best ever produced (specially Burgeon's work).

I've never seen such beautifull and realistic depictions of the Medieval Eras and the Napoleonic Era. The stories are dense and well-paced. Bourgeon's characters and dialogs are complex, but not excessive. Hermann's ones are more stereotyped but also deep. All in all, these stories have a very realistic feel and so, might sometimes (Bourgeon's work) make the reader feel uneasy about those societies values and behaviours. I really think you should try to get or, at least read, these three series. Trully masterworks.


I've read one album of Murena and enjoyed it (specially plot-wise). But the drawings are somewhat more mainstream and don't have the beautifull light and color treatement of a Hugo Pratt or a Bourgeon.

Never read Le Scorpion or Bruce J. Hawker, but I know some of Vance's work. Not one of my favorites, though.

Didn't know about La Croix de Cazenac. Looks good. I like the drawing detail. Got to get one to read...

I like Blacksad quite a lot. Unfortunatelly, I've only recently been aware of it. You're right. His drawings are a true delight. The light-shade opposition, the expressiveness of characters and specially the great color work. As for the stories, all film noir-style. Very interesting.

[Crimson Castle]

I can't find them here in Melbourne (Australia). They don't stock them or something.

I'm reading the graphic novel "100 bullets" which is something similar. But the art work is not esp great.

I did read a story by Moebius sometime ago - but it was a Frank Herbert Dune ripoff. The drawings were brilliant though.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ May 22 2004,06:58)]Happy to see that these are in Dutch as well, but...

What is BD? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

BTW... best drawn comics I've yet seen are either Asterix (historical BD.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif) or Spawn...



~Wiz
OMG, Wiz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-shocked2.gif Spawn??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Some American Comic Book Artists are trully great. I can remember Frank Miller, John Byrne, Bill Sienkiewicz, Barry Windsor-Smith, Will Eisner, Sam Kieth, etc...

And some American Comic Book Scriptwritters like Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Dave McKean, Grant Morrisson, Jean-Marc de Matteis, and others...

But, trust me, if you've only read Spawn and Astérix you're missing a whole world of extremellly good stories and drawings. Specially in the more serious European BD.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Mouzafphaerre @ May 22 2004,07:01)]-
Can't read French. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif Well, can read most of it but not understand but a little. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
_
IIRC, most of these guy's works - Jean Giraud (Blueberry series), Möebius (The Long Tomorrow, Le Garage Hermétique, Arzach, L'Incal, Le Monde d'Edena), Jean-Michel Charlier (script Blueberry), Pierre Christan (script Valerian, Les Falanges de l'Ordre Noir, Partie de Chasse), Enki Bilal (La Croisière des Oubliés, Partie de Chasse, Les Falanges de l'Ordre Noir, La Foire aux Imortels, La Fémme Piége), Schuiten and Peters (Les Cités Obscures) are translated to the English language.

As for Hugo Pratt (Corto Maltese), Jean Claude Meziéres (Valerian), François Burgeon and Hermann, I'm not sure.

The problem is: these albums I've posted aren't recent. They were released in the mid 80s, gainning imediate critical acclaim. I will try to find out which editors have translated them to English. I'll post the info on my next post (I hope).

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 22 2004,10:46)]I can't find them here in Melbourne (Australia). They don't stock them or something.
Maybe my worst fears have come true - they might not have been translated because of beeing too artsy... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sad.gif

You know: Dumbness in choosing works for translation and distribution happens everywhere. Specially if the editors think it's too elitistic... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif

Hollywood-style big-business approach... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif



Quote[/b] ]I'm reading the graphic novel "100 bullets" which is something similar. But the art work is not esp great.
Don't know that one. Who is the author? Do you have any other info?



Quote[/b] ]I did read a story by Moebius sometime ago - but it was a Frank Herbert Dune ripoff. The drawings were brilliant though.
Yes, he tends to amaze everyone. I would recommend Möebius's works to anyone. The Incal (L'Incal with script by Alejandro Jodorowsky) is for sure translated. It is a very famous series of 6 books. When this series was published (in the early 80s) it revolutionized the way FC was made. There is also a bundle of the 6 albums in a single graphic novel book.

BTW, I forgot to mention Möebius = Jean Giraud. They are the same man. Möebius is the name he uses for FC series. Giraud for the Blueberry series. This series is about the life of an American during the Old West. It spans from his youth as a Lieutenent in the Union Army until his later years as civilian, near the turn of the century. It also encompasses the American Civil War and several important historical events of American History. The best Western "comics" I've ever read.

If you want more info about him, check this out:

Möebius (http://www.lambiek.net/moebius.htm)

Jean Giraud (http://www.lambiek.net/giraud.htm)

Jean Giraud - Möebius (http://www.stardom.fr/)

Blueberry (http://www.blueberry-lesite.com/) (Site with sound and awesome graphics)

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 22 2004,18:27)]
Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ May 22 2004,06:58)]Happy to see that these are in Dutch as well, but...

What is BD? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

BTW... best drawn comics I've yet seen are either Asterix (historical BD.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif) or Spawn...



~Wiz
OMG, Wiz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-shocked2.gif Spawn??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Some American Comic Book Artists are trully great. I can remember Frank Miller, John Byrne, Bill Syenkiewicz, Barry Windsor-Smith, Will Weisner, Sam Kitt, etc...

And some American Comic Book Scriptwritters like Alan Moore, Jack Kirby, Neil Gaiman, Dave McKean, Grant Morrisson and others...

But, trust me, if you've only read Spawn and Astérix you're missing a whole world of extremellly good stories and drawings. Specially in the more serious European BD.
'Course I haven't only read Spawn and Asterix, but no BD's yet... don't care really, comics are not my 'thang'. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif




~Wiz

[Crimson Castle]

100 Bullets by Brian Azzaewllo and Eduardo Risso. Its a graphic novel series on a super conspiracy. The art work is not as good as the ones mentioned but the storyline has proven intriguing. The first book was so-so but the rest of the series is better.

Anyone here also read Lone Wolf and Cub by Koike and Kojima? Its also pretty good too - until the end - which was a bit anti-climatic. Damn I hate the fat poisoner.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ May 22 2004,16:55)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 22 2004,18:27)]
Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ May 22 2004,06:58)]Happy to see that these are in Dutch as well, but...

What is BD? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

BTW... best drawn comics I've yet seen are either Asterix (historical BD.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif) or Spawn...



~Wiz
OMG, Wiz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-shocked2.gif Spawn??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Some American Comic Book Artists are trully great. I can remember Frank Miller, John Byrne, Bill Syenkiewicz, Barry Windsor-Smith, Will Weisner, Sam Kitt, etc...

And some American Comic Book Scriptwritters like Alan Moore, Jack Kirby, Neil Gaiman, Dave McKean, Grant Morrisson and others...

But, trust me, if you've only read Spawn and Astérix you're missing a whole world of extremellly good stories and drawings. Specially in the more serious European BD.
'Course I haven't only read Spawn and Asterix, but no BD's yet...
I was joking... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif



Quote[/b] ] don't care really, comics are not my 'thang'. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Trust me. You would change your opinion, after reading some of those I've recommended.

BTW, what is your favorite historical period?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 22 2004,22:46)]100 Bullets by Brian Azzaewllo and Eduardo Risso. Its a graphic novel series on a super conspiracy. The art work is not as good as the ones mentioned but the storyline has proven intriguing. The first book was so-so but the rest of the series is better.
Thanks. I'll see if I can find it.



Quote[/b] ]Anyone here also read Lone Wolf and Cub by Koike and Kojima? Its also pretty good too - until the end - which was a bit anti-climatic. Damn I hate the fat poisoner.
You are sooooooo right. It is a Masterwork. IMHO, the most faithfull depiction of Medieval Japan. All presented with a beautifull and enthralling plot, spiced up with short moral stories throughtout the saga. A fantastic work by masters Kazuo Koike and Goseki Kojima.

I also found the end strange and anti-climatic, but nevertheless intriging and beautifull. Which is something rarely seen...

The poisoner is irritating isn't it? But if one looks closely he is the one with the most identifiable set of values to Westerners. Remember the Kaishakunin's words: "Pitifull indeed..."

[Tricky Lady]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 22 2004,16:24)]It's quite strange that, being interested in Historical BD, you do not know these series. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif They are classicaly aclaimed as some of the best ever produced (specially Burgeon's work).

I've never seen such beautifull and realistic depictions of the Medieval Eras and the Napoleonic Era. The stories are dense and well-paced. Bourgeon's characters and dialogs are complex, but not excessive. Hermann's ones are more stereotyped but also deep. All in all, these stories have a very realistic feel and so, might sometimes (Bourgeon's work) make the reader feel uneasy about those societies values and behaviours. I really think you should try to get or, at least read, these three series. Trully masterworks.
I've already written them down on my shortlist... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Tricky Lady @ May 23 2004,07:35)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 22 2004,16:24)]It's quite strange that, being interested in Historical BD, you do not know these series. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif They are classicaly aclaimed as some of the best ever produced (specially Burgeon's work).

I've never seen such beautifull and realistic depictions of the Medieval Eras and the Napoleonic Era. The stories are dense and well-paced. Bourgeon's characters and dialogs are complex, but not excessive. Hermann's ones are more stereotyped but also deep. All in all, these stories have a very realistic feel and so, might sometimes (Bourgeon's work) make the reader feel uneasy about those societies values and behaviours. I really think you should try to get or, at least read, these three series. Trully masterworks.
I've already written them down on my shortlist... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Good to know. You won't be sorry. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

BTW, if you like Medieval Japan, Crimson Castle's recomendation of Lone Wolf and Cub should enter your list just fine. If you're an admirer of Bushido, you'll just flip at the intensity and drama of the story. It is also considered one of the best comic book series ever. All 28 volumes are currently in print by Dark Horse.

However, don't mistake it with a recent FC series passed in the future and drawn by others. Your series was designed and scripted by masters Koike and Kojima.

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 23 2004,12:30)]BTW, what is your favorite historical period?
Most certainly the Middle Ages... so much of my favorite civilizations in that one period http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif



~Wiz

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ May 23 2004,14:24)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 23 2004,12:30)]BTW, what is your favorite historical period?
Most certainly the Middle Ages... so much of my favorite civilizations in that one period http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif



~Wiz
Then, my friend, Les Compagnons du Crepuscule by François Burgeon (1986-1990), Les Tours de Bois Maury by Hermann and Lone Wolf and Cub by Kazuo Koike and Goseki Kojima would delight you for sure. Any similarity with mainstream comics is purely a coincidence. These guys (among others) have elevated it to an art form.

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 24 2004,00:43)]The poisoner is irritating isn't it? But if one looks closely he is the one with the most identifiable set of values to Westerners. Remember the Kaishakunin's words: "Pitifull indeed..."
Some of the front artwork for Kazuo's Lone Wolf was also very very beautiful.

Here is a review to give u an idea.

http://www.grovel.org.uk/reviews/lonewo01/lonewo01.htm

As for the fat poisoner - I don't think he is "more western" - unless you're thinking of the fat porn star Ron Jeremy. Dude, the fat poisoner was pretty fked up. I cringe whenever I recall how he got thirsty and wanted a drink from one of his hos. And the bastrd didnt die for fsake The authors kept on reusing the useless chunk of flesh for 4 books. He was an interesting contrast but one that was streched too FFAR

I also did not like how they got Ogami and Retsudo to become all touchy feely toward the end. That was imho excessively illogical. If it was for a moment - I can accept it. But to drag it on - and to see them cook for each other and sleep together like sority sisters was simply stupid - imho. Both of them hate each other with utter sheer utter abandon - then all of a sudden they get a weak moment and ... gah

Sorry for the rant - but I loved the series when it came out back in Eclipse in 1987. And I was really let down by the conclusion.

If you want to buy my set - I can sell it to you. I got the whole series. All 27 volumes.

Cheers,

Castle

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 24 2004,08:02)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 24 2004,00:43)]The poisoner is irritating isn't it? But if one looks closely he is the one with the most identifiable set of values to Westerners. Remember the Kaishakunin's words: "Pitifull indeed..."
Some of the front artwork for Kazuo's Lone Wolf was also very very beautiful.
The Dark Horse covers were made by American Comic Book Artists Frank Miller (first 12 or 13 volumes, I think), Bill Syenkiewicz (up to 19) and Matt Wagner (the rest).



Quote[/b] ]Here is a review to give u an idea.

http://www.grovel.org.uk/reviews/lonewo01/lonewo01.htm
Great link Thanks... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif



Quote[/b] ]As for the fat poisoner - I don't think he is "more western" - unless you're thinking of the fat porn star Ron Jeremy.
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

I wasn't refering to his sickest, filthy characteristcs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif That was not what I was talking about. I meant his will to win and survive, at any cost, even by loosing face. Contrary to the other Japanese portraied in the series, he is the only one that does not concern himself with the Japanese principle of "loosing face" - an extremelly important principle in Japan, specially during the Middle Ages. He is there just for the results. Like most non-noble westerners of that era...



Quote[/b] ]Dude, the fat poisoner was pretty fked up. I cringe whenever I recall how he got thirsty and wanted a drink from one of his hos.
Yes, that was really sick. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sick.gif Like I said above, I wasn't refering to that.



Quote[/b] ]And the bastrd didnt die for fsake The authors kept on reusing the useless chunk of flesh for 4 books. He was an interesting contrast but one that was streched too FFAR
I thought that too. But, contrary to most stories, they got him a good plot to keep him in the series.



Quote[/b] ]I also did not like how they got Ogami and Retsudo to become all touchy feely toward the end. That was imho excessively illogical. If it was for a moment - I can accept it. But to drag it on - and to see them cook for each other and sleep together like sority sisters was simply stupid - imho. Both of them hate each other with utter sheer utter abandon - then all of a sudden they get a weak moment and ... gah
I don't agree. It might seem exagerated, but there is a reason for that. In the beggining of the saga they are deadly rivals, but as we keep going through the series we see that Retsudo is, each passing moment, more in awe (raging frustrating awe) of Ogami. It was just a grevious external factor (Daigoro) and a standstill, that forced them to a uncofortable truce. Knowing that both men are of the higher classes of Samurai, we understand that their word makes for an unbreakable truce. IMHO, they did not got along like sority sisters, but like two tigers watching each other, waiting to pounce.



Quote[/b] ]Sorry for the rant - but I loved the series when it came out back in Eclipse in 1987. And I was really let down by the conclusion.
No problem. I also got puzzled with the ending. It felt something was amiss. But I've made my truce with it afterwards... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif



Quote[/b] ]If you want to buy my set - I can sell it to you. I got the whole series. All 27 volumes.
Dark Horse's edition was released in 28 volumes. Thanks, but I'm not thinking of buying it. My cousin (a Comic book collector) also has it... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 25 2004,06:18)]I wasn't refering to his sickest, filthy characteristcs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif That was not what I was talking about. I meant his will to win and survive, at any cost, even by loosing face. Contrary to the other Japanese portraied in the series, he is the only one that does not concern himself with the Japanese principle of "loosing face" - an extremelly important principle in Japan, specially during the Middle Ages. He is there just for the results. Like most non-noble westerners of that era...
But Ogami was also "more western" at the start of the series.

He had renounced the way of the samurai to take up the way of the assasin- living in Meifumado - walking the demon path - without honor and without shame, living only for one purpose - revenge.

In Book One, who can forget faking the drowning of his son to lure one of his victims into a watery ambush?

In Book 8, he took part in sexual acts with a prostitute to appease several worthless thugs.


And of course he took up the road of the assasin, selling his services for money- taking the lives of countless numbers of people for cash- and for what purpose???? In the end the purpose of the treasure was to buy western-made weapons for his child son. Rather farcical.

Forgive me, but imho the story started to degenerate after awhile.

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 25 2004,06:18)]I don't agree. It might seem exagerated, but there is a reason for that. In the beggining of the saga they are deadly rivals, but as we keep going through the series we see that Retsudo is, each passing moment, more in awe (raging frustrating awe) of Ogami. It was just a grevious external factor (Daigoro) and a standstill, that forced them to a uncofortable truce. Knowing that both men are of the higher classes of Samurai, we understand that their word makes for an unbreakable truce. IMHO, they did not got along like sority sisters, but like two tigers watching each other, waiting to pounce.
We have to disagree here. It simply made no sense. Both sides would move Heaven and Earth to kill each other. The Yagu and Ogami the assasin ronin were totally ruthless and would resort to trickery and deceit to kill their enemies.

Ogami had his whole family killed by Retsudo who then blackmailed him,.

Ogami singlehandledly wiped out the whole of the Yagu + a huge number of innocent samurai and even an entire clan army that got in his way.

Then all of sudden at the end - they cook rice for each other and sit down???? I mean seriously wtf???

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I still like Dante Allegheri.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 25 2004,12:39)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 25 2004,06:18)]I wasn't refering to his sickest, filthy characteristcs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif That was not what I was talking about. I meant his will to win and survive, at any cost, even by loosing face. Contrary to the other Japanese portraied in the series, he is the only one that does not concern himself with the Japanese principle of "loosing face" - an extremelly important principle in Japan, specially during the Middle Ages. He is there just for the results. Like most non-noble westerners of that era...
But Ogami was also "more western" at the start of the series.

He had renounced the way of the samurai to take up the way of the assasin- living in Meifumado - walking the demon path - without honor and without shame, living only for one purpose - revenge.

In Book One, who can forget faking the drowning of his son to lure one of his victims into a watery ambush?

In Book 8, he took part in sexual acts with a prostitute to appease several worthless thugs.


And of course he took up the road of the assasin, selling his services for money- taking the lives of countless numbers of people for cash- and for what purpose???? In the end the purpose of the treasure was to buy western-made weapons for his child son. Rather farcical.

Forgive me, but imho the story started to degenerate after awhile.
You have a point here, although revenge is by no means an ALIEN concept in Medieval Japan. Remember the Samurai that had lost their lord through assassination and pretended to be just worthless drunkards to convince the enemy Daymio that they weren't dangerous? Remember that, after the enemy got relaxed, they atacked and assassinated him, before commiting Seppuku to honour their lord? That is not strange in Medieval Japan, although I have to agree that the Assassin's path brought Ogammi far away from the normal Japanese Samurai behaviour...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 25 2004,12:47)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 25 2004,06:18)]I don't agree. It might seem exagerated, but there is a reason for that. In the beggining of the saga they are deadly rivals, but as we keep going through the series we see that Retsudo is, each passing moment, more in awe (raging frustrating awe) of Ogami. It was just a grevious external factor (Daigoro) and a standstill, that forced them to a uncofortable truce. Knowing that both men are of the higher classes of Samurai, we understand that their word makes for an unbreakable truce. IMHO, they did not got along like sority sisters, but like two tigers watching each other, waiting to pounce.
We have to disagree here. It simply made no sense. Both sides would move Heaven and Earth to kill each other. The Yagu and Ogami the assasin ronin were totally ruthless and would resort to trickery and deceit to kill their enemies.
Ogammi was not totally ruthless, as you can see from the many tales throughout the series. He only killed innocents when they were there to arrest him, therefore frustrating his revenge. The people he assassinated weren't innocent or he wouldn't have accepted the contracts. That was my impression of the whole series.



Quote[/b] ]Ogami had his whole family killed by Retsudo who then blackmailed him.

Ogami singlehandledly wiped out the whole of the Yagu + a huge number of innocent samurai and even an entire clan army that got in his way.

Then all of sudden at the end - they cook rice for each other and sit down???? I mean seriously wtf???
That might be exagerated, but not by much. Indeed it doesn't sound strange at all. Do you know why? Because NEVER before had they commited their word with one another. That was the difference. After their word had been given, they could not, in any way, do something that would make them brake it. That would mean the betrayal of their principles.

But there were other factors:

-It allowed for Ogammi to save Daigoro.
-It allowed time for Retsudo to muster his last forces in a final all-out attack. That would make it more possible to kill Ogammi without destroying what was left of the rest of the clan.

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 26 2004,10:42)]
You got a good point there. Maybe what infuriated me was the fat poisoner interlude. Damn that guy just DIDNT DIE I guess I was also very disappointed to see that the whole intent of Ogami's assasin work and scheming was to buy a box of hand grenades for Daigoro. I was seriously waiting for him to use it to buy off some powerful court official or something big.

Well, as for his ruthlessness - may that is "too strong" a word to use - he seemed to repent and change as the series progressed - but he did wipe out an innocent clan army which got in his way.

As for their word is bond sort of thing - the "cook rice- save Daigoro" episodo was actually not the first time Retsudo gave his word to Ogami. In Book 34 (Vol 7) did not Retsudo give his pledge that he would not touch Ogami if he stayed out of Edo?

Somehow it seems slightly hypocritical - Ogami and Retsudo claim to be honorable - yet they resort to underhand assasin tactics to achieve their goals.

Just my two cents.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 26 2004,10:13)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 26 2004,10:42)]
You got a good point there. Maybe what infuriated me was the fat poisoner interlude. Damn that guy just DIDNT DIE
He was a resilient bugger, wasn't he?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin.gif



Quote[/b] ]I guess I was also very disappointed to see that the whole intent of Ogami's assasin work and scheming was to buy a box of hand grenades for Daigoro. I was seriously waiting for him to use it to buy off some powerful court official or something big.
Me too. But Ogami knew that wouldn't restore his clan. Nothing would.



Quote[/b] ]Well, as for his ruthlessness - may that is "too strong" a word to use - he seemed to repent and change as the series progressed - but he did wipe out an innocent clan army which got in his way.
Not innocent. They had the option to let him pass, but that meant disobeying the Shogun, which would probably cause the dissolution of their clan. They did not wanted that to happen, so they played their cards against the weaker opponent. Remember that the clan's leader was a personal friend and student of Ogami? He knew the inner man. But he choose not to let him go.



Quote[/b] ]As for their word is bond sort of thing - the "cook rice- save Daigoro" episodo was actually not the first time Retsudo gave his word to Ogami. In Book 34 (Vol 7) did not Retsudo give his pledge that he would not touch Ogami if he stayed out of Edo?
Yes, you're right. I forgot that. But, did he brake his word? I don't think so. Only after Ogami's decision to travel to Edo, after the finding of the silkworm writtings, did he chased him. He was interfering with the Yaggu's plans, therefore entering the political stage (Edo), even if by mere remote presence.



Quote[/b] ]Somehow it seems slightly hypocritical - Ogami and Retsudo claim to be honorable - yet they resort to underhand assasin tactics to achieve their goals.
Yes. They seem changable and prone to paradoxal behaviour. But if we focus on real-life people and not on archetypes, that might be understandable. Everybody has doubts, bad decisions and conflicting behaviours...

[Crimson Castle]

Ya of course. But its one thing to make a big deal out of the bushido code and then the next minute say I'm not following it because they are walking the road of hell and of demons. Anyhow, the best stuff was done in the first 10 books. One of my favourites was the one with the fight with the retired ronin who was guarding his lord's grave from errant young bushi. Ogami graciously chose not to accept the money for that fight.

(But no, I was not expecting Ogami to attempt to resort his clan - but rather to use the wealth (and knowledge) he accumulated to weed out totally the Yagu and their system.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ May 26 2004,11:15)]Ya of course. But its one thing to make a big deal out of the bushido code and then the next minute say I'm not following it because they are walking the road of hell and of demons. Anyhow, the best stuff was done in the first 10 books. One of my favourites was the one with the fight with the retired ronin who was guarding his lord's grave from errant young bushi. Ogami graciously chose not to accept the money for that fight.
I agree. On the quality of the early volumes and the story you mention. But there are other very good moments troughout the series. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif



Quote[/b] ](But no, I was not expecting Ogami to attempt to resort his clan - but rather to use the wealth (and knowledge) he accumulated to weed out totally the Yagu and their system.
I also expected that. I agree that was somewhat of a letdown.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

So, anybody has any other contributions or recomendations about Historical BD, Manga or Comics? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking.gif