View Full Version : (Dare I unleash this?) Morale effect of 32 Kensai:
Dionysus9
05-21-2002, 02:08
Lately, a renowned innovator and master tactician (who shall remain nameless) has taken to playing 2 armies of all kensai during late night 4v4 Shoggy games. Of course this requires 2 computers, so many of us are unable to reproduce this experiment.
However, I have observed the following:
32 Kensai in one place will demoralize just about anything you can throw against them. As soon as the defending unit takes a few casualties it heads for the hills.
The morale effect of 32 units, all in a 1.8 tile area, is truly overwhelming. These 32 Kensai (who individually have very high morale) become (dare I say) Super Kensai when they are all in a gang. They boost eachothers morale to the point that they simply will not route, and they demoralize the enemy to the point that he cant really mount a defense.
Units that attempt to stand against 2 full armies of kensai are drastically outnumbered. Remember, with respect to morale boosts/penalties, the ratio of friendly to enemy units is what counts. As a result, normal units are VERY susceptible to routing with just a few kills. The normal army just cant pack enough of its troops in one tile to face this gang of Kensai with any semblance of morale.
One Kensai can tear apart a unit pretty quickly. 32 at once? Even assuming that each Kensai strikes a hit only once out of every 4 frames, that leaves 8 enemy dead per frame. A couple animations and the unit routes for sure.
DEAR GOD HOW DO WE STOP THIS INSANITY!?
Now let me say, that 16 Kensai do not seem to have the same "super" effect. A single army of all Kensai seems to have been anticipated by the programers. It is difficult to kill 16 60 man units w/ just 16 Kensai. Make that 32 Kensai and it appears unstoppable.
Problem: W/ 2 full armies of Kensai, it seems a trained monkey can destroy the great generals. Just double click a few times and its all over. No real planning, tacticts, or strategy. Just point, click, and win. Fun? Not really.
Solution?: Guns will kill a few, but who is dumb enough to charge Kensai right at guns? (perhaps a poorly trained monkey). A well trained monkey would seek cover in an allies charge. If Kensai hide in enemy infantry guns are basically inneffective against them.
Fight fire w/ fire? 32 Kensai attacking, 32 defending? Thats the only real solution I can come up with, and its not very fun.
So, in the future it seems we are looking at a 128 Kensai 4v4 game. Yippee skippy.
Please answer this call to arms and for GODS SAKE, FIND A WAY TO DEFEAT THIS THREAT TO US ALL!
Mithrandir
05-21-2002, 02:15
how about a monk/HC attack ?
the monks should be able to demoralize them a bit and the HC need A LOT to rout.. well that's my exp., if you just comepletely surround them with the perhaps ? also take in one archer unit,I think the morale of troops drops a bit when they are shot at, when the kensai charge your troops send in monk/HC ?
not sure but willing to try online some time,
elflands@hotmail.com for my msn account.
will delete you after the game though, dont like to have a lot of ppl in my list :
Battlefield Ninja eat kensai for breakfast.
1 unit of B. Ninja can kill 3 kensai in a minute. And without coming into melee range.
BomilkarDate
05-21-2002, 03:49
...And you can pack loads of ninjas in a small area, just as the kensi...
Dionysus9
05-21-2002, 04:00
Hmmm.... interesting ideas.... The B-Ninja might just work...I will test those. As for the Monks / HC combo, it doesnt work....but good idea, that was my first try too. Now the problem is how do I pack enough ninja's in my army to kill the kensai w/out messing up my balance. Should be interesting.
ElmarkOFear
05-21-2002, 06:47
That all kensai army sounds an awful lot like an AMP army! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I have seen him use an all Kensai army before and I do know that he frequently plays on same side with two pcs in online play. Super ashi are a solution to beating them, but that was in the old MI before the patch. As for the patched version, I do not know what would be effective except possibly a cav arch army/nagi/hvy cav mix, which would be able to run away from the kensai and tire them when they charged. The kensai normally do not die until they have been fighting running awhile and show themselves to be very tired. Good luck and please let us know what you find. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Have you tried the 16-in-1tile cav formation? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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what would be the point ? Theyd all stop and clog each other hehehehe.
Now for something really weird, try this:
Putting all the following in 1 row deep, each unit behind the other:
1 yari sam
1 monk/nodachi (either)
1 naginata
1 cav. archer
1 yari sam
Put them all in a group, HOLD FORMATION.
and march them at an enemy battle formation, making sure they stay together.
From what i've found, using this creates a nearly unbeatable attack force (only guns and maybe a MASS, and I mean MASS archer fire can stop them).
Why? The yari in front act as both anti-cavalry and as meat shields for any troops coming in to melee. The monks/nodachi behind them (in the 2nd row of men) give a bad morale bonus to the enemy and a good bonus to all your men around them.. and they chop to pieces any soldier of any unit that comes near them. Then on the 3rd row come the naginata. Nag's act as blocks. If 1 man from say, an enemy monk unit managed to kill the yari sam and your monk/nodachi behind him, your naginata will hold it at bay while YOUR other monks to each side kill him.. or the heavy cav behind the nag gets him... OR the cav. archer shoots him. The rear yari is to guard against cavalry from behind.
Isn't it sad that such holywood tactics work?
Papewaio
05-21-2002, 15:46
The max effect with Kensai should be capped at 7.
http://shogun-academy.tripod.com/images/massorgy.jpg
Surely anyone will fear a MASS of horsee running over him like an oil-tanker http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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theforce
05-21-2002, 19:10
BN are so cute lol. I was playing a friendly and placed took 16 ninja units for the fun of it. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
I placed my gen behind 15 units of ninjas that were in 1 row. He send ashis first, only to be butchered by the "phantom menace" http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
When the cav arrived though it was not nice http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
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I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!
Papewaio
05-21-2002, 20:26
Ah, so you were playing American Indian Ninja when the calvary arrived http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
I would think all guns are a good answer to all kensai. Guns can shoot at the kensai from beyond the range of morale effects. I would put the guns in either double or single rank for maximum effect on the first volley. Fall back by rotating the first gun line to the rear when the kensai get within morale range. Keep the guns in hold formation for the final confrontation.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Dionysus9
05-21-2002, 21:57
Well, the problem is this: All guns or All Ninja might work against an all Kensai army, but what happens when he takes a normal army and I am stuck w/ anti-Kensai units?
B-Ninja have worked well in tests, 1 unit of 3H BNinja can take out 2 4h Kensai before becoming worthless. You need to close to H2H-- their shurikens are useless. So, a healthy # of guns and ninja should help....now I just need to find a good balance with cav and infantry....
Another problem w/ guns is that they wont work as well in rain, that Kensai can hide in forests and basically win by not fighting, and that guns can be charged easily by enemy cav (there are usually 2 normal armies and 2 kensai armies).... so I think BNinja will have to do the trick.
8 ninja, 4 buff guns, 4 yc might work.
well, i gotta go to work
Krasturak
05-21-2002, 21:59
Yes, Yuuki, you have the answer: guns!
Gah! Guns! Gah!
Guns will solve this problem of the hyped-up, over-eager, sharp-sworded and unhappy Kensai army.
There remains one major problem, though:
Kensai rob you of kills!
You only get one kill per unit!
This is horrible, and could lead to mass starvation among Krast's Evil Army.
Quote Originally posted by Dionysus9:
Well, the problem is this: All guns or All Ninja might work against an all Kensai army, but what happens when he takes a normal army and I am stuck w/ anti-Kensai units?
[/QUOTE]
LOL then enjoy this special moment http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif The process of trying to solve a problem can be as fun as the result itself, win or lose.
Best course of action is to get the usual balanced army, and learn how to use it to deal with the unexpected, as well as the expected...
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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Dionysus9,
This single unit type army is a game of outguessing your opponent in his army choice. What do you expect, tactics? You've got to be kidding. If you don't guess right on what he's taking, YOU LOOSE! Get it? And, he cannot win by hiding in trees. That's a draw. I have a suggestion. As soon as you see the 32 kensai, WITHDRAW!
MizuYuuki
Like I said, you dont need to get all ninjas. If you think he'll bring 32 kensai, you get yourself 5 ninjas and have the rest of your army be strongly defensive or offensive depending on what you doing.
A B. Ninja does kill a kensa with shuriken. It takes them about 7 throws to kill one, the higher the ninja honor, the faster they kill it.
Mithrandir
05-22-2002, 01:18
Can the B.N.'s hit and run the Kensai ? which brings another thing to mind, cavelry archers, 32 units of them shouldnt rout since you can afford the weapon/honour upgrades and if you keep them all close ?
B. Ninja will avoid melee at all costs unless you order them to or they run out of ammo.
They are VERY fast and can fire on the run (that or they stop and shoot and run again REAAAL fast). A kensai has no chance to catch them to melee.
Dionysus9
05-22-2002, 02:14
Believe me, I've tried shuriken vs. Kensai and the ninja invariably run out of ammo before making a kill (3H Ninja, 4H Kensai). Not to mention that they are chased across half the map in the process.
And, again, the average kill ratio in H2H is 1 unit of 3H ninja to 2 units of 4H Kensai, so 5 ninja units aint gonna do squat to 32 kensai. Not to mention this was tested vs. AI which doesnt really use its Kens to full effect.
As for your suggestion to withdraw-- I'd be letting down my allies for one thing, and for another it would be a waste of my time to host a 4v4 and then withdraw from it and sit around while I wait for my allies to lose.
I guess the answer is a 4 max unit rule(as much as I hate rules), because Yuuki you are right-- I dont feel like a game of rock-scissors-paper.
It just seems like there should be a balanced army that, with good luck and generalship, should be able to take on any combination of units in the game. I guess that aint the case.
Dionysus9,
It was an objective of v1.02 that a balanced army would succeed against armies composed of a single unit type. While it's pretty good in that regard, unusual units like the kensai and BN are quite difficult to balance. In trying to keep these special types of units useful, it left the door open to a technique or single tactic being discovered which couldn't be handled by balanced armies which try to win by maneuvering of individual units but would instead require equally extreme and unrealistic measures to counter. This desire not to weaken units so much that they became useless is why guns ended up being too strong.
Low armor is the weakness of the kensai, but archers can't hit a single man very well. That really only leaves guns as the counter unit. I've had some experience fighting against the all kensai army, and I don't think a balanced army has any chance at all of beating it. You have to play the army choice guessing game here because the army you take to beat that all kensai army will not be well suited to other situations. It forces you out of the balanced army concept which is how I want to play the game.
A recent experience has brought something about this game's balance into focus for me. While re-evaluating the balance of Mongols vs Japanese with TosaInu, I lost 5 straight games with a balanced Japanese army utilizing different tactics. Tired of loosing, I choose an army of kensai gen, 7 YS and 8 ND for the sixth battle. I made a line of all the NDs in wedge formation and bracketed them front and back with YS in 60 wide x 1 deep hold formation. I then walked forward and won against Tosa's balanced Mongols with ease. You see what this means? The balance is one way for "normal" battles, but the opposite when I adopted and "extreme" army and formation against Tosa's balanced army. Next time Tosa can try to counter with some "extreme" army type and formation of his own. It seems to make the idea of balancing the game superfluous. Where does this leave the players trying to use balanced armies to win by maneuvering individual units around to advantage? It leaves them out on their ass that's where.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 05-22-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 05-22-2002).]
trust me battlefield ninja will slaughter kensai.. at least theyve never failed me. if ur really worried about ppl that field single unit armies, find out who they are(obviously u wont know untill u play ppl) then simply rufuse to play them again. i wiped out a 16 unit super ashi army yesterday with a balanced force, the victory was quite convincing.
MajesticWishazu
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Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your toops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical......Sun Tzu the Art of War
MajesticWishazu,
If you played someone of equal or better ability and got that result, then that's really good, but the debate isn't about 16 YA which is not as formidable as 16 kensai not to mention 32 kensai piled on top of one another.
I'm not worried about it, but when there are only 12 people in the foyer there is not a whole lot of choice on who you play in a 3v3 or 4v4 since only a few people can even host such a game, and Dionysus9 has a good point about not leaving a game where you have allies. In that case, I would just get it over with as quickly as possible.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Dionysus9
05-22-2002, 08:09
I just wanted to add that I am confident the Leader of the Thirty-Two Kensai would adopt a more "normal" tactic if I asked him to. But, I would't tell an enemy what sword to fight with, and so telling a general what troops he may or may not use is a poor option.
Balance is certainly an ideal to be strived for, and those of the Community who have contributed to the balancing-patches and troop-stat editing should be thanked (profusely) for their blood,sweat,and/tears. Although v1.12 is often touted as the "ultimate ideal"--it had its problems. A quick fix is ulikely, but in time all things shall come into balance as a result of your efforts. Ohhhm.
We salute you!
[This message has been edited by Dionysus9 (edited 05-22-2002).]
Konnichiwa Yuuki san,
STW is a nice game, but unfortunately not foolproof (allows exploits and holywood tactics).
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
CaPeFeAr
05-22-2002, 22:03
you guys can quit worring about all kensi casue they suck. wether you bring 16 or 32 it doesnt matter. i was amps ally during the nite in question ( 1 of many nights ) and i never saw him get more than 1000 kills combined. not to mention that i was facing 2 armies most of the time ( certin death for most players ) it is nothing more than a fun army which amp enjoys bringing. and if you still think an all kensi army is unstoppable then try it yourself. i would rate kensi armies somewhere in the 5 least powerful armies possible.
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Konnichiwa,
Only 1,000 kills? The rest just routed?
A unit that does well against kensai in HTH is the BN unit.
Small elite units are nice, but 1 man units like the kensai don't fit in this game.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Mithrandir
05-23-2002, 00:20
_very_ unrealistic if you ask me...
a man which can walk through a rain of arrows shot on him by 480 men, then survive a cavelry charge of well trained men with spears, or even beat a large amount of heavily armed knights....
Mithrandir
05-23-2002, 01:01
Just tried it (AI) 2 AI kensai,one mixed ally, mostly HC.Normal troops stand little chance, I decided to give super elite CA a chance, 9 honour,weapon upgrades 3,armour upgrades 3.
they took no heads and lost most men when I had to send them in for melee.
My units ,SA,Monks,HC and some YS took only 3 heads while losing 500 men, my 2 BN ninjas full armour+2 weapon,3 honour took out 4 kensai (kensai h4) while losing just 6 men...
so indeed Ninjas are the way to take em out.
one last remark... ever seen a man bigger then a mounted knight ?
Dionysus9
05-23-2002, 03:44
Results:
If you want to kill a man the size of Andre the Giant, you must employ 12 buff Shinobi.
how did those kensai get to be 12 foot tall? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your toops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical......Sun Tzu the Art of War
Kraellin
05-24-2002, 00:43
i have to agree with capefear. all kensai armies, even 2 of them in league with each other is hardly unstoppable. i mean, your team has 32 units also and kensai do die rather easily to guns, bn's, cav and arrows. at least that's been my experience.
but, if you want to counter the morale buildup of 32 kensai bunched together, there are ways to do it. also remember what longjohn2 said about morale adds...there is a cap and this can be countered rather easily. having 32 kensai all bunched up isnt going to make them 'super' kensai morale-wise. in fact, it's going to make very poor use of the morale adds.
frankly, i think the case here is more of 2 VERY experienced players playing 2 that arent quite of the same caliber. i mean no offense by that, but amp and cape are VERY good players and i suspect that may be the biggest factor, not the 32 kensai.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
Arrows are not going to work very well against kensai because something like 80% to 90% of the arrows overshoot their target. You don't notice this when you are shooting on a 60 man unit that has some depth, but try shooting at a 60 man wide line that's 1 man deep. You don't get many kills.
Killing a kensai is not the same as having a unit rout from casualties because there is no morale penalty when the kensai dies, but there is -6 morale to friendly units within 1.8 tiles when a unit routs. Plus, with a few kills the H0 kensai is up to H2 which raises its morale.
Cavalry is effective against a single kensai if you can get behind him while he's fighting another unit and charge into his back in wedge formation with the point cavalry man. If you don't kill him right away then pull back and try again. We're talking about a single kensai here.
I think you have to get off to a good start against 16 kensai by taking down a few with ranged fire, forming a line of h2h units that can stand for a long time and continuing to shoot at the kensai and trying to attack them from the rear with something. I can see where BN could be very good against kensai with their ranged weapon and very good combat ability.
MizuYuuki ~~~
I dont mind if ppl bring a single unit-type army provided that they can handle it and they have a reasonable chance to win against an average army. I usually ask ppl not to bring a pure kensai army, (1) because it is only effective in the hands of a few experts (like AMP); (2) it is extremely boring to fight against them.
GAH!
You are ALL wrong!
BN... HC... Monks... GUNS... None will work. Of course, y'all don't have access to the headless horseman unit, which can take on infinite troops of infinite skill and kill em all... but that is another issue.
The best unit to fight a band of kensais is... [drum roll] The Super Ashigaru! Just load up on 16 greasy peasants, jack up their honor and weapons as high as you can. In battle, just select all your units and double-click on the enemy kensai general, and watch your hapless rabble cut the "flower of Japan" down like a crude dandelion.
Dionysus9
05-29-2002, 01:07
In a recent 32 Kensai + normal army vs. 3 normal army battle, we chipped the 32 down to 20 or something (after dispatching the normal army first). We had probably 12-16 units of guns, so Amp was on the run for a lot of the game. Eventually he hit the auto-route limit for clicks away from the enemy and he lost 6 kensai. He was forced to charge us w/ the remainin ones and thats when he dropped. Doh!
We were bummed that we didnt get to see what happened.
Yes, Amp is more experienced than me and a much better player, but there is a limit to what you can do w/ Kensai. Maneuvering 32 kensai at once is not that difficult, and even if you break them down to morale capped units of 7/8, they are still very manageable. I dont think that skill level is makes THAT much of a difference when you are talking about moving 4 groups of kensai around.
Finally, I've noticed that having a line of H2H in front of guns is not that effective. Part of the problem is that friendly kills put a lot of morale pressure on your H2H troops, and they often block the shot at the kensai.
The best way to kill a mass of Kens so far is either 1) Ninja in hand to hand or 2) Guns firing at close range, with no friendly troops in between.
Then 2nd option is best-- try putting your guns in skirmish in front of a long spear unit in hold/hold. As the kensai charge you will get off 1, maybe 2 good volleys. Then your guns start to skirmish back and the kensai engage the spears. Now run your entire army back a good bit, because the Kensai will penetrate the spears quickly. Let those spears die, they are not worth saving.
Repeat until all Kensai are dead.
This is easier said than done, but I got it to work once and I nabbed a few of those 12 foot bastards.
Would any general of the time feild an army of 16 or even 32 against 960? I doubt it.
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"A warriors death in battle should be bloody"
10 No-Dachi and 6 Yari Cavarly does the trick for me, but just for me.
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I am the law and you can't beat the law.
dark ninja
06-09-2002, 06:31
the theroe of monks and heavy calvery sounds best but WTF IS A BATTLEFIELD NINJA!?i've used h/c with monks with high honor high weapons and high armour and with only 1 unit of each i tore apart an army of 360 thier quite a good combination and i've never had either of them run from a battle on me.
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