who is going to have the best archers?

[Ragss]

Im curious if any faction will have excellent archers, romes longbow's if you will. For the sake of ballance im sure CA will give someone the advantage here, possible those pharoes bowmen haha. But were there any historical superior archers?

[some_totalwar_dude]

Javelins where the big missle killers from that time.
But I pretty sure some of the eastern factions will have some pretty good archers.

[Leet Eriksson]

Oriental factions will probably have the best archers.Though i'm also guessing Carthage will also get a pretty good seletion of ranged units,they had balearic slingers afterall.

[alman9898]

Persians might have some good archers

[The_Emperor]

Eastern factions certainly...

I'm laying odds on Egypt and Parthia being the best shooters.

[econ21]

I wonder if CA will include "soft" qualitative factors in determining archery? In MTW, a bow is just a bow, so say Trebizond archers are no better at shooting than vanilla ones. I am not aware that there was an equivalent of the longbow vs shortbow in this period, so if archers are to differ in their shooting some soft factor would have to be introduced.

[bighairyman]

yeah it will be probably eastern factions, even Rome recruit their archers from the east after they conquer it.

[Ragss]

I was watching 2 different TC episodes, in one the archers had a max range of 100m, in the other, it was 300m. I forget which both factions were though :P


Also, I saw some mention about composite bows, they made it sound asthough not everyone had this technology...

[Oleander Ardens]

The Germans ought to have "longbows", but they were surly not the best archers around.

The Scythians and the Sarmantian should have their double-curved compositebow, just like their Parthian relatives..

Both the Greeks and the Romans made also use of the Scythian design, while most of the Persian and Egyptian infantry archers was equipped with larger "simple" composite bows.

Any idea which bow the Carthies and their mercs used mostly?

I truly hope that the archers and their ranged qualities differ: one could use different arrowheads with different qualities, or give the archers which used poisened arrows (Dacians, Scythians) a high letality factor...

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (some_totalwar_dude @ May 22 2004,23:19)]Javelins where the big missle killers from that time.
But I pretty sure some of the eastern factions will have some pretty good archers.
The biggest range killers were not javelins... hell, pila were there to nullify the advantage of shields, not to kill...

The biggest killer at range were without a doubt the Parthian horse archers, even Plutarch mentions this, saying that the Parthian horse archers took 'the lion's share of the kills', when compared to the lancers, at Carrhae.

So, I would most certainly say Parthia had the best archers.



~Wiz

[shingenmitch2]

Hmmm...

Okay historically the Scythian/Sarmatians should get the best bow. Crete was also known for its archers.

Pilum and the steel javelin of the CeltIberos should be NASTY.


In theory, or at least for the campaign, I really want to see differentiation in bows, their armor penetration power and range.

However, for the multi-play part of the game this makes me a tad worried. The faction with the longest bow range will have a distinct advanatge... If there were no pav. xbows, most peeps would play English for the LBs. As it is it is very hard to play as Turks because they have no pav xbows, but a least they do have xbows by themselves.

In the earlier version of MTW where in High games u both had xbows and arbelasters, EVERYONE took arbelasters, primarily because of their range. i.e. I can shoot u, but you can't hit me --- is a crappy position.

I worry that factions with the best bows will be used by 95% of players. Hopefully stuff like the Testudo formation and odd things like elephants will balance out other factions making multi-player games have a good mix of factions.

[hundurinn]

Quote[/b] ]The biggest killer at range were without a doubt the Parthian horse archers, even Plutarch mentions this, saying that the Parthian horse archers took 'the lion's share of the kills', when compared to the lancers, at Carrhae.


Yeah, Parthians horse archers will be very good since they are supposed to shoot while moving. The Pharao's Archer are probably very good archers.

[shingenmitch2]

Ah yes, can't forget Parthia -- but they were essentially a Scythian/Saramatian tribe anyway...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Well from what i've seen of the game, CA seems to be making a big deal about this Pharoh archers. But honestly, I don't recall the Egyptians ever being known for their archery. Certainly "classic" Egypt of the Ramases/Quadesh era only had the old "stave" bow technology...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ May 24 2004,15:32)]Ah yes, can't forget Parthia -- but they were essentially a Scythian/Saramatian tribe anyway...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Well from what i've seen of the game, CA seems to be making a big deal about this Pharoh archers. But honestly, I don't recall the Egyptians ever being known for their archery. Certainly "classic" Egypt of the Ramases/Quadesh era only had the old "stave" bow technology...
Correct. They were good archers for their time, up until the year 1000BC. After that, foreign influence ruled...

[Ragss]

wow, thanks for all the info, guys I hope those HA who can shoot and move at the same time get seriously reduced damage ect or they will be far too powerful.

I also noticed that in the IGN E3 videos, archers still have very little killing power. A volley fired into a charging group of barbarians with mid sized shields, by the romans, yielded about 3 kills. This means that armoured units with big shields, such as Legionaries, will hardly get scratched...esp in testudo.

[Kraxis]

I wonder why so few have mentioned the Cretan Archers as some of the best.

Not the strongest bow, but still a composite bow superior to the single-stave bows. THe archers themselves were quite accurate and efficient. The Anabasis mentiones the small contingent of Cretans and have them holding off vastly superior forces on the march.

[Oleander Ardens]

@Kraxis: Didn't Xenophan write that the Persians did outrange the Cretans?

But they were surly competent archers and I highly suspect that they used the "scythian" bow

About Egyptian bows: http://www.student.utwente.nl/~sagi/artikel/ancient_composites/

http://www.ping.be/olivier_picard/history/egypt.htm


Note that the triangular bow was also used by the Assyrians.

The Egyptians seemed to have used "simple" composite bows for their footarchers, just like the Perisans did, which also made use of the "scythian" design...

I think that the Egyptians may have been rather competent footarcher, but are there any sources to conferm this?

[Oleander Ardens]

I forgot to mention the Nubians. Does anybody know more of them during the RTW period? Nubia was called by the Eggies "Land of the Bow" and produced some excellent archers with a distinct bow since 3000 BC. And on the reliefs of Persepolis there are still to see Nubian arches IIRC bringing tribute to the "King of the Kings"...

[The Wizard]

Nubians as in the kingdom of Kush? Or Nubians as in the later vassals of Cartago who brought such deadly cavalry?

Mythology does refer to the 'Aethopians', or 'Elephantines' as huge men with gigantic bows which no man could draw...



~Wiz

[Oleander Ardens]

Right the Nubians living on the territory of modern Sudan...

Never heard about this myths though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif

Here some info about the Nubians 600AD:

The Arab conquerors of Egypt soon came into conflict with the Nubians, and their first raid was made in A.D. 641. These early attacks were only predatory raids and there was no intention of occupying the country ; the Nubians fought stoutly and gained a reputation amongst the Arabs as skilful archers, who specialized in blinding their opponents by shooting at their eyes; they were known to the Arabs as rumat al-hadaq, "pupil-smiters ". Soon after these first raids, a treaty known as the Baqt, from the Greek pakton, a pact, was concluded, by which the Nubians supplied annually four hundred slaves in return for foodstuffs and cloth.

In A.D. 652 Arab attacks recommenced and the Arab writer, Maqrizi, recounts that they penetrated as far as Old Dongola, where the principal church was destroyed, with stones thrown from catapults, and the king Kalidurut sued for peace. It is certain that it was no easy victory and an Arab poet wrote:

"My eyes ne'er saw another fight like Dongola, with rushing horses loaded down with coats of mail ".

In spite of this victory the Arabs had no wish to occupy the comparatively poor country of Nubia in face of the fierce resistance of its inhabitants, so different from that of the Copts in Egypt, who had helped the invaders against the hated Byzantine rulers.

Source: http://rumkatkilise.org/nubia.htm

[Oleander Ardens]

I may add that they used like the Eggies the "mongolian" technique with a thumbring of which many were found, some still on the thumb of the dead..




"One day they arrayed themselves against us and were desirous to carry on the conflict with the sword. But they were too quick for us and shot their arrows, putting out our eyes. The eyes they put out numbered 150. We at last thought the best thing to do with such a people was to make peace."

The Arabic writer al-Baladhuri.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldse....2.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/8chapter2.shtml)

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ May 25 2004,13:43)]Nubians as in the kingdom of Kush? Or Nubians as in the later vassals of Cartago who brought such deadly cavalry?

Mythology does refer to the 'Aethopians', or 'Elephantines' as huge men with gigantic bows which no man could draw...



~Wiz
Ah, you have made the same mistake I made when I first encountered the accounts of Carthage's light cavalry. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
You have mistaken Nubians with Numidians. Numidians are related to the Berbers, if not them on the whole. The Nubians are much darker and slimmer in their build.

But I have heard about those longbows too, they are even said to have been able to fell elephants. Or perhaps I'm confusing them with the legcutters...

Anyway, the Nubians certainly had large, but relatively primitive bows. Could be interesting if the Bowman is a Nubian...

[The Wizard]

Oh well, Eastern history is my specialty, and the Roman empire and such are interesting but Persia and the steppes are more interesting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ May 25 2004,13:14)]@Kraxis: Didn't Xenophan write that the Persians did outrange the Cretans?

But they were surly competent archers and I highly suspect that they used the "scythian" bow
Well... It is some time since I read it, a great book by the way. But I seem to remember the archers didn't have much problems chasing off the horse archers. And since we are talking about 250 archers out of about 13000 and against thousands of horse archers I fear they would simply get wiped out from attrition after a few attacks, as the horse archers could let loose the first couple of volleys be fore the Cretans could return the fire.

[Colovion]

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ May 25 2004,10:28)]"One day they arrayed themselves against us and were desirous to carry on the conflict with the sword. But they were too quick for us and shot their arrows, putting out our eyes. The eyes they put out numbered 150. We at last thought the best thing to do with such a people was to make peace."

The Arabic writer al-Baladhuri.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldse....2.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/8chapter2.shtml)
Holy CRAP http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Talk about getting owned. You go out to fight and before you can even get within range with your swords you have about 150 soldiers already blinded because they shot their eyes out Now that's accuracy. I know about the British Longbowman accuracy from distance but that is crazy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

[Rosacrux]

About Cretan Archers... Crete had an extremely long tradition (since the Geometric era) in archery. In classical and post-classical antiquity they used some sort of composite bow, better than the Median bow and the other designs used in the Persian empire, on par with the Skythian composite designs.

As to why the Cretans became such great archers, the explaination is quite simple: they grew with their bows, on all practical ways. They grew up as hunters and that's where the usefulness of the bow comes in hand. Also, they were never a single political entity (Crete) but moreso little city states, fighting it off every now and then. Local "kings" employed large numbers of archers in their endless struggle. Finally, many Cretan cities, especially in the eastern part of the island (Olus, Ierapytna and others) were pirate bastions, and at the time we are talking about a pirate had to know how to use the bow (they were always short on men and hand-to-hand combat takes a heftier toll than just shooting your enemy to oblivion from a distance).

Most Greeks didn't feel good with the Cretans, since the bow was considered in mainland Greece a "coward's weapon".

The Cretan Archers as mercenaries were sought after in the whole eastern mediteranean, as highly professional and able troops. The Persian employed as many of them as they could find (most Cretans, as I said, preffered the pirate's life) and the core of Alexander's skirmishing troops was a 500-men strong contigent of Cretan archers.

In the timeframe of Alexander, the Cretan Archer would carry his composite bow and one or two quarrels with arrows, a small buckler shield and a large knife (eghiridion) for selft protection. They didn't wear any kind of armor, but relied on their ability to fire extremely fast consequitive volleys, and their mobility to take them away from danger if such was approaching.

The most interesting thing about Cretan Archers is that they remained top notch for more than two millenia - talking about a looooong tradition. In Byzantine times some of the best foot archers of the empire were recruited from Cretan lands and the Venetians, when they occupied Crete, became astonished by the skill of the local archers and used them extensively as mercenaries in their armies.

Nowadays the Cretans kind of uphold this tradition, by being the only Greeks that bear firearms and use them (annoingly frequently too).

P.S. I come from Crete and lived there for half my life. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Colovion]

^ awesome post

The Egyptians also have a long history with the bow.. but I don't have a big writeup like yours. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-embarassed.gif

[Kraxis]

Nice post there Rosa... I have always wondered why Crete bacame such a hotbed of archery and warfare from the more peaceful Minoan times.
Now it makes sense, eventhough you didn't mention the Minoans (since they are out of the timeframe of archery).

So, do you have any ranges they could fire? I have always felt that ancient archers wouldn't fire more than 100-150 meters in battle. But a better bow than the Persians, who had a quite good bow, would indicate they had better range than the Persians (which fits my earlier post).

Was the bow they used shaped like our upper lip? In danish that form is called Cupid's Bow.

[Rosacrux]

Thanks Colovion, Kraxis

As for your questions, Kraxis... well, there are no clear accounts of the range of a cretan bow. From various sources and indirect references, some assume that the effective (lethal) range of the Cretan bow of the classical age, exceeded sometimes the 150 meters, depending on the strength of the archer of course (the best Skythian bows would be lethal at appr. 200 meters, for comparison) and that's because the Cretans as all Greeks usually didn't draw the string all the way back. They used archery rings though, and their bow was relatively short and with a string made by animal intestines. It was a compact bow and in the timeframe we are referring to it was only slightly double curved (that's how we call it here). The Cretan bow evolved to a fully double-curved later, in Roman times.

But the lethality of the Cretan Archers would not be all about the range of their bows but mostly about their training and personal skill. They would usually fire trajectory shots, but when the enemy was close, they would start aimed shots, fall back in no time, shoot again, fall back etc. They were famous as unmatched marksmen and they cooperated well with other unit types (seldom virtue for light infantry in the classical world) essentialy being ideal for combined arms approaches. Also, they could fire rapidly and they had various types of arrows (not as varied as for instance the Mongols, of course).

BTW the Minoans seem to have had an archery tradition themselves, but not much is known about it. There are some 19th-18th century BC depictions of what seems to be a triangle-shaped (like the mid-east design of the same timeframe) bow, and Egyptian sources imply that those bows were quite a weapon.

But their skill in naval combat superceded any archery skill they might've possesed, so we don't know much about the latter.

[The Wizard]

Ah, a man from the land of winter avalanches, king Minos, Daedalos, Icaros and the Minotauros, eh? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Nice post... did the Cretans have any spearmen or was most of the fighting done at range? Seems a bit strange to me, just like imagining steppe nomads fighting each other. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif



~Wiz

[Rosacrux]

...and the island where Zeus (Dias) was raised, and where Europa was brought by Zeus and where 4 million Europeans come every year for some hot vacation http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Of course Cretans didn't rely solely on their archery skill. Some city states of Crete even employed hoplites at some point of their history. But the "pros" of the Cretan armies were always the bowmen. We don't have any accounts of Cretan hoplites fighting anywhere outside Crete, but we have gazillions of references to Cretan Archers, from the Geometric era up to Crete's annexation to the Ottoman empire (17th century). During antiquity the Cretan archers were quite potent in swordfighting and used the small shield-small sword combination quite effectively (as they were more or less full-time professional warriors).

Archery and marksmanship is an extremely ancient tradition in Crete, preserved by the relative isolation of the place (a large, self-sustainable for the greatest part of its history, island, with extensive mountain ranges and few plains) and the psyche of Cretans.

It's such a tradition that even during the 20th century the snipers of the Greek army originated mostly from Crete.

[The Wizard]

Ahh... so Cretan archers were good skirmishers? Sounds interesting...

Seems like I'll have to wrestle Crete from the hold of the Ptolemies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif



~Wiz

[Ragss]

they sound like jannisary infantry.

[scooter_the_shooter]

no i would take ottaman inf over jan inf

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (ceasar010 @ May 30 2004,08:41)]no i would take ottaman inf over jan inf
GAH Not a good choice...

[Ragss]

Attacker(jan) Wins at 31 Hits
With 58.38% damaged

[katank]

I think he meant power in missile duel.

turcoman foot is better than either IMHO for pure foot missile.

[PSYCHO]

Who has the best archers?

THE ROMANS DAMIT http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

[Kraxis]

Now I have to ask two things Psycho. First where did that come from? And second, are you beginning to live up to your nick? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif Looks at PSYCHO's post... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking.gif



Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ June 02 2004,11:31)]Now I have to ask two things Psycho. First where did that come from? And second, are you beginning to live up to your nick? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Looks at Kraxis comment... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-idea2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif

[PSYCHO]

Sleep deprivation does bad things to your head.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (PSYCHO @ June 02 2004,20:44)]Sleep deprivation does bad things to your head.
You didn't have to edit your post. It was funny... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif