Catastrophic morale failures

[meravelha]

I'm sure we've all been there...

A Hesitant, Good Runner (or worse) in command of an otherwise useful army because he's the best available commander in the region.
And your defence (which would have worked perfectly well before) collapses like a house of cards.

Does anyone have any tips on deploying and using low-morale armies? If you can win with these...

[Bezalel]

Only advice I have is to stay on big hills, and don't get flanked. Train better generals, maybe. This sounds like a good question for Katank or ichi.

[Colovion]

I had a crappy General - I had the high ground - I flanked THEIR army and all my units (twice the number of the other army) fled off the battlefield and I had to wait for reinforcements before I could narrowly win. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif It's annoying when you have a tactical advantage, do everything right - and then your General is a moron and runs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[motorhead]

If his command level is simply too good despite his negative morale issues, you should make sure your troop producing provs have built their max religious buildings (excluding chapter house) to pump up your troops base morale.

If he's got the worst vice (i think good runner for -9) then that general may only be useful on defense. Edge or corner camp so no exposed flanks which causes more -morale.

You could also bolster that army with units that already have valor (thru combat or prov. bonuses).

If you really want to micromanage, search stacks for unit leader's that have +morale bonuses and shift them over.

[Oaty]

In desert you are doomed but in lush and temperate climates if you keep your troops in fresh status you should be ok as long as you have 2 stars more than the defender if they get tired you are much better off just letting them stand there until they freshen up for battle.

I remember fighting a battle inflicting heavy losses and then my army gets tired and all of them want to route. Well my jedi good runner general came in and mopped up, after that he got the excellent custodian vice. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Bhruic]

To backup what motorhead said, another major point is to retrain the unit in the province with the best +morale bonuses you have. The huge penalty to morale just from him is bad enough, but if he should flee for any reason, you are sunk. For that reason, I probably wouldn't use him in the combat at all, if I could manage it. Even if you try and flank with him, if he sees anyone on his flank/rear, he could panic and flee. Keep him close enough to the combat for his stars to add to the units around him, but far enough away he's not going to be under fire from arrows/ballista/etc.

Bh

[Imperial Buffoon]

I'd back up what has been said about using units with morale bonuses but I really think the best thing to do is to get him captured. The easiest way of doing this is to either attack and auto-resolve or to let him get trapped in a castle siege.
In my current Aragonese campaign I have a 6* + excellent attacker general who went crazy on me and got Doubtful Courage and Good Runner, I've ended up not using him as a general at all after he lost very winnable battles.
Even if he's the best in the province, if you have more than a full stack in the province, it shouldn't be hard to choose the commander and at least in the desert, morale vices are worth at least -3/4*

[garion]

try to attack a low class army like peasants first. you're guys get impetuous because they killed so many guys, and then you can fight the rest of the battle

[Medieval Assassin]

I find the best way to deal with a general like that is to have him assassinated. Unless he is a Command 4+ General, thats what I do, now if hes is too good to kill. Keep your men on highground, with flanks protected. Also, if you have any high moral troops, put them in front of the army so they take most the losses, while trying to flank with your lower moral troops.
If the low moral troops are in front of the better ones and they run away, the higher moral troops with suffer a giant moral loss, which will more then likely cause them to rout.
Its no fun with a General with a Minus Moral Vice... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif

[Serpent]

Make sure you have High level valour whit all units... Take all units whit valour 3 in your army and rest under another general. Try harvesting vices and give your general Constantinople or another province where is command stars.....Problem is if there is 1,2,3,4 units that are running then all of them will... also keep general protected.

[meravelha]

Cheers guys, for the replies.

I'm going to need every trick in the book to get through the next phase of play :)

So yeah, build more churches, train up some replacements...

[katank]

If a general has more than -4 net morale, I don't care if he's a 9*, i'll still fire him as best general position.

this game is too focused on morale to allows for that kind of mess up.

I would always use heavy cav genreal and use him on safe short flanking attack so he doesn't get not so bold vices but remains safe so he doesn't rout.

I keep a table of heroes handy to try and make sure they get incarnated as a BG cav units as these are the best, changing through the eras

good luck on jedi training http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[RedKnight]

I had to look up some of the vices mentioned here cuz I couldn't remember them... found Destiny's list here (http://www.freewebs.com/totalwar85/)... has anyone ever gotten Tortured (+6 Morale, -2 Command) or Traumatised (+9 Morale, -3 Command)? Caused by being captured more??
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

Haha, this game is a hoot I've been playing it months and there's still new wrinkles... every day
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[cutepuppy]

Yes, traumatised and tortured may appear if your general gets captured several times (but not always).
I once saw it with a Egyptian sultan I captured and ransomed several times.

[Medieval Assassin]

Is that +9 morale for the whole army or just the Generals unit... Ive seen it before but Ive never really thought about if it affects everyone. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[motorhead]

A general's +/- morale modifier affect the whole army he commands, but his +/- valor modifiers affect just his personal unit. Individual unit leaders +/- morale/valor modifiers affect just their personal unit.

[Medieval Assassin]

Hmm, Interesting. I wonder if the +9 morale of the army would be better then the command, or they must be close.
You could take a Gen with 0 Command and make him a giant morale boost.

[motorhead]

keep in mind that a general's command level also boosts army morale. An army general will boost morale by +1/star within 50 meters, +1/2-stars beyond 50 meters. So a 6-star general with a -3 morale vice effectively nullifies it, but it would be alot better if he didn't have the vice and gave his men +3 morale (minimum).

You've got to decide if a general's command rating (giving + attack/defense and some morale) outweighs his negative morale vices. Better attack/defense means your unit will do better - and winning improves morale while losing a fight lowers morale.

[ichi]

Katank and Motorhead are right, you have to make a decision about a Gen' advantages and disadvantages, assassinate or disband (or relocate the unit to a garrison job in a safe interior province) guys that hurt you.

I'd rather have a 0-star Gen with no V&Vs then an unhinged loon or good runner. It is usually easy to know when to expect that a Gen has picked up a bad vice - after a battle ends poorly for me I check the guys out. That way I don't get surprised 10 turns later when I get attacked and find out that the boss ain't gonna cut it.

OK, so you get surprised - what to do on the field? Take the biggest hill and sit in the corner, in trees if possible (YES - CORNER CAMP).

Use every morale trick in the book - isolate enemy units and gang-maul them one at a time - hit with a couple of good units then flank with cav while applying some archer fire. Of course this won't work if the AI sends all of its troops en masse. Once you get an enemy unit running try to drive him into others to get a chain rout.

Keep especially low morale low units back as long as possible.

If you keep your troops close together you can reduce the morale penalties - but are more vulnerable to a chain rout.

ichi

ps thanks for the props guys

[katank]

ichi is quite right.

low morale spear/vanilla archer armies can't possibly survive if isolated.

they need to stick together on a nice hill and turn themselves into a mobile fort.

keeping general right behind spear wall getting pushed hard is also good as the morale boost is more.

personally, I would sometimes get my generals captured just to get the morale boosting vices.

the command can always be made up by titles.

try to get some ones with leader stuff and also traumatised makes even peasants not likely to rout

morale can never hurt in this game and I often pick say a +6 morale 4* over a -6 morale 9*.

it's personal preference but I always like to go with morale.

more attack doesn't mean anything if your troops are running away

[Medieval Assassin]

Can someone give me a guess on how far 50m on the game is...
Maybe as long as 1 line of spearman and a little? 100 men, three ranks...

[Medieval Assassin]

Okay, one more question, lets just say

I have a 0* Gen,
I get him captured for the 9 morale thing.
But it also takes away -3 command,
Does this mean his next 3 command will be cancelled out?
Or will he get his command like normal?

Im a vet at the game, but now ive started modding and I realize how important morale and stuff is.

[motorhead]

A dev post stated that command modifiers are added after the base command is calculated. So, in the case of a 0-star commander with -3 command, he'd need to win 8 victories (4-star status) to actually show up as a 1-star commander. On the flip side, a 0-star general with +4 command via titles only needs 8 victories to show up as an 8-star commander.

edit: of course, you could always groom him by fighting lots of battles against the odds (actually, so long as your army is always smaller, even if just by 1 man). You could quickly send him down the skilled attacker/defender route for some +command virtues.

[Medieval Assassin]

Thanks motorhead http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[katank]

yep, load up your best general with high quality mercs and he gets skilled risky everything soon.

try using starting Byz inf and naptha in Naples to take Sicily and try to hold onto both Sicily and Naples.

by the time reinforcements arrive or he's finally defeated and ransomed, he will be a superb commander.

@medieval assasin. I believe each man needs 1 m of room to be fully effective.

thus, in close formation, 100 men in rank 2 should give an idea of how much 100 meters is.

[ichi]

Quote[/b] (Medieval Assassin @ May 25 2004,19:21)]Can someone give me a guess on how far 50m on the game is...
Maybe as long as 1 line of spearman and a little? 100 men, three ranks...
In the game, a LB or arbalest can shoot about 120 meters, a crossbow or shortbow (standard archer or hybrid type) can shoot 100 meters.

ichi

[Medieval Assassin]

Thank you, I'll keep that in mind.

[SpencerH]

This thread kinda brings up a question I've had percolating. How often do you look at your generals hidden traits. I never look at mine, nor do I often read the annoying popup that tells me when they change. I just look at the stars (and maybe thats why I have a few odd battle results). Theres got to be a better way to present the info. Maybe a little white feather on the generals banner or something.

[ichi]

Quote[/b] (SpencerH @ May 27 2004,10:26)]This thread kinda brings up a question I've had percolating. How often do you look at your generals hidden traits. I never look at mine, nor do I often read the annoying popup that tells me when they change. I just look at the stars (and maybe thats why I have a few odd battle results). Theres got to be a better way to present the info. Maybe a little white feather on the generals banner or something.
Wow we've hijacked this thread three times now

Each province will have a 'top dog' militarily. Not necessarily the Governor, there is going to be one guy that outranks the others.
This is the guy that I check before each battle that I initiate. I usually check every five turns or less in those border provinces where I am likely to get attacked.

In provinces with multiple stacks that are commanded by Genrals of equal rank, then you need to look at each of the potential commanders.

I watch my Royals pretty closely, since you never know when the King is going to croak and leave with an Unhinged Loon/Pervert/Good Runner/Poor Steward heir as a new Knig.

I think it is important to look occassionally at your Governors V&Vs also. In VI there is a screen that appears at the end of each turn that lists all new V&Vs. A very important piece of info, and one of the few times that I actually take little notes during a game. Late in a campaign I will systematically go through all Guvs every 10-20 years, or if my cash flow is really poor or my province happiness is bad I will go through and replace guys that are cutting the mustard.

I don't think it is necessary to look at each guy each turn - Commanding Generals in border provinces, Royals, and the Governors.

You are quite right about one thing, having the V&Vs listed on a scroll down portion of the card makes things much more tedious.

ichi

[katank]

just top generals and important cash province govs.

with const., that's even two birds with one stone as the gov there is usually my best gen

I check up on all heirs regularly and suicide pathetic ones.