Weapons in game mechanics

[Woreczko]

Hi all

Well, I hope that topic of thread is self explanatory. I read somewhere, that sword gives +1 melee vs spear, are there any other features, like this?

[Medieval Assassin]

Swords>Spears
Spears>Cav
Cav>Swords

MOST the time, swords,Cav,Spears will beat archers.
Polearms have a bonus VS Cav.
Axes have a bonus Vs. Armourded troops,
Heavy Armour will tire in the Desert.

There are so many different ones, but I got to go...

[Woreczko]

Thanks, but I should clarify, that I mean hidden bonuses, not these ones, which can be found in crusaderunit (or whatever http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif) file, like bonus vs cavalry or number of supporting ranks. And please give the numeric values, if they are available :)

[garion]

do you know that the camels get a bonus against cav?

[ThijsP]

Camels bring fear to cavalary units. Dont know hom much exactly.

[katank]

camels have morale effect on cav of maybe 4 morale.

they do have +2 attack and +4 defence vs. cav.

spears get +1, +4 vs. cav while polearms get +3, +1

polearms and axes also get AP ability which means 1 more attack for every 2 points of armor over 3 for inf. and 4 for cav.

thus, since they are usually facing heavily armored cav, polearms do very well vs. cav and kill them faster than spears although spears hold cav better.

[Medieval Assassin]

Guns/cannons/seige weapons will bring -4 morale
Being shot at by a bow is -2 morale.

[katank]

also, the morale penalty from that is in effect for a little less than reload time for the weapon.

[CBR]

One hidden bonus is swords (or any non-spear infantry unit) in wedge versus spears. Being in wedge gives better pushback and disrupts the spear formation so the spears will get less bonuses from their ranks.


CBR

[katank]

wedge isn't for inf only though.

try charging cav into spear/pikes with cav in wedge and you can see one column of spearmen get push back if you zoom in.

wedge is +3 attack, -3 defence.

I suggest wedge only while charging as close in the subsequent melee gets more troops involved in the brawl

[CBR]

Yes but cavalry in wedge is nothing compared to what you get out of swords in wedge attacking spears.


CBR

[Puzz3D]

Here is a list of everything I currently know about combat and morale bonuses and penalties:


COMBAT

Each man has an attack value and defend value used in calculating the chance to kill his opponent on each strike in a combat cycle. Each man who is fighting gets one strike within a combat cycle. Men can be double teamed in a combat cycle and will then have to parry twice, but they still only get to stike at one of the two opponents.

chance to kill = 1.9% * 1.2 ^ df
difference factor df = attack - defend + bonus
attack is the attack value of the striker
defend is the defend value of the opponent
bonus is any combat modifier that applies
charge is added in as a combat modifier

Charge (from the Strategy Guide):

Clicking on an enemy unit causes your unit to go to charge speed once it gets close to the enemy unit. It takes 2 or 3 seconds to reach maximum charge speed (presumably from walking speed). A charging soldier makes immediate strikes against all opponents he contacts. Each time he fights a little momentum is lost. When sufficient momentum is lost, the charge ends and the soldier looses the charge bonus. (Note: Once a unit switches to charge mode, the men in it will get the charge bonus against any men contacted even if those men are not in the target unit.)

Pushback:

In an attack, the striker has a chance of pushing back his opponent which gives him a strong combat bonus on the next strike. Factors affecting the chance of pushback are: kill chance, advantage in supporting ranks and mounted vs foot. Charging cavalry always pushes back any foot soldier who is not facing him with a spear, pike or polearm. (Note: v1.1 patch altered spear, pike and polearm pushback so that charging cavalry has a chance to pushback these men even when they are facing the charging cavalryman.)

Combat modifiers:

Formations

+3 atk, -3 def for wedge formation
-2 atk, +2 def for hold formation

Spear/pikes

+1 def per rank (up to 2 for spear, 4 for pike)
+1 atk per 2 ranks when not charging
+1 atk per rank when charging
+1 atk to non spear/pike inf after the initial charge
Cancels cavalry's charge bonus frontally
No rank bonuses in trees

Terrain

+1 atk for camels in sandy desert
-1 atk for camels in lush or temperate
-2 atk, -2 def for cavalry or camel in trees
Bonus to atk for being uphill (amount depends on height difference)
Penalty to atk for being downhill (amount depends on height difference)

Fear of Target

+4 def for camels against horses
+2 atk for camels against horses

Positional

+5 atk for flank attack
+7 atk for rear attack
+2 atk for charging into flank/rear
+6 atk on the following combat cycle after 'pushing back' the enemy
+5 atk when target squeezed too tight
Units fight at half effectiveness when squeezed too tight
(Note: Each man needs a 1 meter diameter circle of personal space to be able to fight effectively. Cavalry need more. Examples: bridge, castle gate or overlapping friendly units.)

Exhaustion

-2 atk when quite tired
-3 atk, -1 def very tired
-4 atk, -2 def exhausted
-6 atk, -3 def totally exhausted

Routing

+4 atk against routing enemies
-8 def if routing

Armor Piercing

atk bonus = (target armor - 1)/2

(Note: Remove the contribution of the shield (1 or 2) and horse (1) to target's armor before making this calculation. This is an integer calculation with any fractional value truncated)

Shield

If striker hits target from the rear:
+2 atk if target is footman with large shield
+1 atk if target is mounted or footman with small shield


MORALE

States

Impetuous: 10 and above
Steady: 2 to 14
Uncertain: -5 to 5
Wavering: -14 to -5
Routing: Less than -6

Rout point is -16 in MTW v1.1, and probably moved to -18 in VI for MP. Routed units will keep routing until their morale rises to -6 or above.
Hitting the rally key pumps +8 morale into the unit.

Impetuous units will pursue enemies for longer, and may disregard orders to hold position. Some troop types may charge without orders.

Uncertain or wavering units which are not fighting are less likely to charge, and those who are fighting are more likely to fall back.


Negative

Loose or disordered formation: -2
Outnumbered 2 to 1: up to -4 (range = about 75 meters)
Outnumbered 10 to 1: up to -12 (range = about 75 meters)
Outclassed in quality and speed: modifies the outnumbered penalty.
One flank threatened: -2 (range = about 60 meters)
Two flanks threatened: -6 (range = about 60 meters
Charged in flank: -4
Infantry charged by cavalry in flank or while disordered: -6
Charged in flank by unit hidden in forest: -8
General's death (for first few seconds): -8 to all his units except highly disciplined units
General's death (after first few seconds): -2 to all his units except highly disciplined units
Routing Friends: up to -12 for seeing 2 equal or higher level friendly units routing. Elite and disciplined units consider lesser types as 1/2 a unit for this calculation. (range about 75 meters)
10% of unit is dead: -2
50% of unit is dead: -8
80% of unit is dead: -12
Taking casualties from enemy missle fire: -2 for a duration less than the reload of the firing unit (additional -4 for gunpowder weapons)
Unit is very tired: -2
Unit is exhausted: -6
Unit is totally exhausted: -8
Losing: Up to -8 (up to additional -6 for inf losing to cavalry)
Skirmishing without ammo: -6
Skirmisher pursued for a long distance by equal speed unit: -6
percentage casualties in the previous combat cycle: unknown negative penalty

(Note: The text status indication of who's winning and losing takes into account push backs as well as kills, so it is possible to be winning while suffering more casualties.)

(Note: Outnumbering is based on both numbers of men and combat power. A unit has to be outnumbered by the requisite amount in both areas to get the penalty.)

(Note: The -6 for inf charged by cav in flank or while disordered may have been increased slightly with the mtw 1.1 patch)

(Note: An unspecified army destroyed penalty kicks in when most of an army's combat power has been eliminated.)


Positive

Two flanks protected: +4
No retreat possible (usually castle sieges): +8
No enemies around: +4
Two enemies routing: up to +8
Uphill Position: +2
Winning: up to +6
Unordered charge: +4 (such as when impetuous knights charge automatically)
Outnumber Enemy 3 to 1: +4
General's unit: +2
Within 50 meters of general: +1 morale per command star
Beyond 50 meters from general: +1 morale per 2 command stars

Archer and xbow open fire range = 100 meters (2.5 tiles)
Normal infantry marching speed is 1.68 m/s (speed 6)

[Woreczko]

This is a great info, I`m really impressed:2thumbs:.Wouldn`t it be a good idea to paste this in a stickied thread?

Anyway, few stupid questions:

Quote[/b] ]chance to kill = 1.9% * 1.2 ^ df

What does ^ mean in this equation (I`m far from being a mathematician)?


Quote[/b] ]+1 atk to non spear/pike inf after the initial charge

Does it mean, that spear armed units have +1 attack permanently vs other infantry (except when charging)? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif Then, why are swordsmen so effective vs spears?

Quote[/b] ]Cancels cavalry's charge bonus frontally

Ahh, after a number of times, when I tried to make cavalry charge impose some effect on spearmen, I suspected this:wall: . Once I also thought, that it`s the rank bonus, who is actually canceling charge bonus - I allowed 2 ranks of halberdiers (def = 3) to support the first line, and they were pretty effective at absorbing charges. However this might have happened because they had +5 def bonus (+1 vs cav, +2 for ranks, +2 for hold formation).

And once again, thanks for tons of info:)

[cutepuppy]

Quote[/b] (Woreczko @ May 25 2004,19:53)]What does ^ mean in this equation (I`m far from being a mathematician)?
It's an involution: if df=4, then 1.2^df=1.2*1.2*1.2*1.2


Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]+1 atk to non spear/pike inf after the initial charge

Does it mean, that spear armed units have +1 attack permanently vs other infantry (except when charging)? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif Then, why are swordsmen so effective vs spears?


I'm asking it myself too, I always thought that swords get +1 vs. spears.

[motorhead]

Quote[/b] ] Spear/Pikes
+1 atk to non spear/pike inf after the initial charge

Puzz3D - can u confirm this again? I was a bit shocked when i read it as it's the first time i've ever seen this bonus listed.

From longjohn2:

Quote[/b] ]longjohn2
Programmer
Group: CA
Posts: 263
Joined: Nov. 2000
UK Posted: Sep. 28 2002,19:55
...
I've increased the costs of spear units, and improved sword armed unit's performance against them in the patch.
...

which has always been the source i've used to confirm sword bonus vs. spears.

===================================
to get slightly technical, spears/pikes don't necessarily cancel the cav charge bonus, but the end effect is very similar. Charging cav don't get an automatic pushback vs. spears/pikes/polearms, but they do against other foot soldiers. One of the requirements for getting the charge bonus is that the charger must keep getting kills or pushbacks (as well as maintaining momentum). So, when charging spears/pikes, a cav soldier essentially has to keep killing to maintain his charge bonus, which is difficult against the defensive nature of spears. So, a sufficiently high valor unit of cav, against some weak spears, will maintain it's charge bonus for a bit longer, so long as they keep killing.

[CBR]

Its +1 To not against

IIRC the +1 bonus works after the charge and only against spears/pikes that have bonus from their ranks. So its a semi +1 bonus really.


CBR

[Puzz3D]

Quote[/b] (motorhead @ May 25 2004,14:08)]
Quote[/b] ] Spear/Pikes
+1 atk to non spear/pike inf after the initial charge

Puzz3D - can u confirm this again? I was a bit shocked when i read it as it's the first time i've ever seen this bonus listed.

From longjohn2:

Quote[/b] ]longjohn2
Programmer
Group: CA
Posts: 263
Joined: Nov. 2000
UK Posted: Sep. 28 2002,19:55
...
I've increased the costs of spear units, and improved sword armed unit's performance against them in the patch.
...

which has always been the source i've used to confirm sword bonus vs. spears.

===================================
to get slightly technical, spears/pikes don't necessarily cancel the cav charge bonus, but the end effect is very similar. Charging cav don't get an automatic pushback vs. spears/pikes/polearms, but they do against other foot soldiers. One of the requirements for getting the charge bonus is that the charger must keep getting kills or pushbacks (as well as maintaining momentum). So, when charging spears/pikes, a cav soldier essentially has to keep killing to maintain his charge bonus, which is difficult against the defensive nature of spears. So, a sufficiently high valor unit of cav, against some weak spears, will maintain it's charge bonus for a bit longer, so long as they keep killing.


motorhead,

It's a bit confusing. I have saved this post by longjohn concerning the changes he made to spears in the v1.1 patch:

longjohn2
Programmer
Posts: 1065
From:UK
Registered: Nov 2000
posted 11-08-2002 08:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In general I made it much easier to push spearmen back in combat. They were a bit too much of a brick wall before. They now depend on having rear rank support to have good stopping power. Keeping them well formed, and avoiding turning just before going into combat is important now, especially for pikes.
Secondly I gave a 1 factor bonus to non spear infantry fighting spears/pikes with supporting ranks, unless they were charging. ie you get the bonus after the initial impact.
Thirdly I made some changes to make pikes better against spears, and to make them better at pushing back when they have supporting ranks.
I make some changes to how men form up in combat, which ought to help spears/pike keep closed up and supporting each other.
I made spear units more expensive.
I made all the expensive units cheaper.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So, we have a post from Sept 28, 2002 where longjohn says he improved sword armed units performance vs spears, and we have this post from Nov 8, 2002 where he specifically mentions a +1 bonus to non spear infantry units when fighting spears/pikes. The second statement doesn't negate the first unless the context was that swords were the only unit type changed, and you would have to interpret non spear in the second post to mean only swords. I see that longjohn says non-spear inf get the bonus, but I think he means non spear/pikes.

I'm certain spears/pikes cancel the charge bonus of cav when they are facing the cav. The chance of pushback by cav on spears/pikes was added in v1.1. Chance of pushback would be in effect during melee even without a charge bonus. Pushback is a factor in how long a charge bonus is retained when there is a charge bonus in effect.

[Woreczko]

Regarding +1 attack(?) bonus vs spears with rank bonus - it in fact negates bonus from one rank if fighting infantry, doesn`t it? This could mean also, that spears push back worse and are pushed back easier, however it`s only mine deduction.
And what about non-spear infantry with rank support (I made halberdiers as such)? Does this bonus works against them? Does such halberdiers gain more resistance against push back, due to supporting ranks? I would say, judging from some experiments, I`ve made, that yes, but I would like to hear opinion of more experienced modders http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[CBR]

Only spears and pikes have support ranks. Polearm units like halberdiers dont have have rankbonuses.

You could say it negates the bonus from the first support rank yes.


CBR

[Woreczko]

Quote[/b] (CBR @ May 26 2004,12:34)]Only spears and pikes have support ranks. Polearm units like halberdiers dont have have rankbonuses.

CBR
No offence, my english may be not of high quality, but:
Quote[/b] ]And what about non-spear infantry with rank support (I made halberdiers as such)?

[Puzz3D]

The changes were made to spear and pikes in mtw v1.1 because many players complained that they were too strong in mtw v1.0. In v1.0, spears and pikes were never pushed back by cav. Charging into them from the front with cav was exactly like hitting a brick wall. The +1 attack bonus only applies against those two unit types. Cav always pushes back all other infantry types when charging, and v1.1 added a chance of pushing back spears and pikes. Those two types are also the only ones that get rank bonues. Halbs, billmen, janissary heavy inf, chiv foot knights, etc are polearm types and don't get rank bonuses, and do suffer pushback from cav charge. However, they have very good defensive combat value, and probably not only negate the cav charge quickly but resist pushback in melee as well.

[Woreczko]

Ok, I guess that my post wasn`t clear and it does not forecast anything good for my english exam tomorrow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif .
Anyway, I wanted to say, that I`ve modded halberdiers to have a rank bonus from 2 ranks and have 3 melee and def. Now I`m curious how does the game engine treats them in combat situations - as spearmen/pikemen or still as polearms? It`s not of great importance I guess, but to make a discovery one has to ask questions, doesn`t he? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

Regarding strength of spears - My humble opinion is that they are still too strong, they should lose a fight to knights, but with such ratio, that it would make charging them with cavalry unwise. What`s your opinion?

[CBR]

Well combat could be more random to allow knights to sometimes win frontally against heavy spears.

But as the combat system works now it would be difficult to do without making cavalry too powerful.

If spears cant win against cavalry then there would be no point in having spears.

From a historical viewpoint it was spears/pikes that kept cavalry away (working together with polearms too)


CBR

[Woreczko]

I thought of one hipothetical solution - cavalry charging spears should have some kind of morale test - if they succed, then they will charge spears as any other infantry (spears may still benefit from their bonuses in h2h combat after the charge, but they will have no charge absorption ability and thus will be likely to be broken on impact). If cavalry fails the test, then they will receive no charge bonus, as to represent the fact, that horses are not willing to impale themselves on the spears. How do you like this idea?

[CBR]

Some miniature rulesets use morale checks to give charging cavalry the chance to rout or disorder an infantry unit. Also having random charge and anticav bonus at impact.

That is just not possible to do in MTW. In RTW there seems to be a bit more random results of cavalry charging spears so maybe we will have something different there.


CBR

[Woreczko]

What`s the difference between axe and sword? AFAIK armour piercing capability is a separate bonus, so there should be another feature, that distinguishes them.

[katank]

just about nothing except for AP although swords tend to be a bit more balanced in stats with reasonable defense while light axe troops have huge attack but no defense