those times when you say "WTF WAS THAT!?!?!?"

[Ragss]

So the damned pol's invaded. I defend with a great selection of units, 16 in total. They had 2200 units of the usual crap, armoured spearmen, slav warriors, slav jav.

Long story short, a group of armored spearmean, vanilla, 0 valour, charge up my hill. I charge down at them with 3 valour rus spearmen, and 5 valour katanks, and hit them in the side with 3 valour verangian guard. Then the 17 horsemen who are left from my arrow berrage (the generals unit) comes up behind. I flank him with 4 valour byz lancers. By the time all was said and done, I had 2 (2) katanks left, 3 lancers, something like 80 rus spearmen, and 30 something guards.

I was throughly pissed off, my katanks should have taken them on alone and came out with 25 men left. Usually I wont reload losses, but I did this time and won the battle with 170 casualties and 1100 kills. My katanks only took 7 casualties this time btw.


Has this ever happened to you guys? Just insane losses when it should have been a breeze?

[katank]

yeah, happens all the time.

sometimes things just go a bit kinky and you get owned.

the AI sometimes just doesn't rout and is super jedi.

katanks are strong, but not that strong usually if they aren't a royal jedi unit.

don't treat them as if they can take anything.

intelligent use of pinning and slav javs use and those units you despise can turn your expensive katanks to mush. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Colovion]

Yeah - like that time when I charged my General of Royal Knights into a charging group of peasants and out of the two knights that they kill, one was my General - DOH http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[Cazbol]

My worst case of an enemy super unit was a unit of Saharan cavalry. I had high quality troops myself which engaged the enemy's infantry head on and won against them. At the same time they sent this Saharan cavalry unit around my right flank and I responded to send a unit of ghulam bodyguards against them. My ghulams were massacred while the Saharans hardly lost any men. Seeing that my men were losing I sent my other unit of ghulams, which was led by the sultan himself, but the Saharans routed them at once. Having disposed of my cavalry the Saharans turned on my infantry which had been winning the day and just stomped them. I was able to rally three units of battered saracen infantry and packed them tightly in a defensive position. Having destroyed the rest of my army, the Saharans marched to them but then hesitated and finally lost heart and left the field, so I barely won.

[Kristaps]

Well, if one plays HARD or EXPERT, the AI gets substantial morale bonuses so it just might not rout when one would expect it to rout (i.e., hit from behind, flank, by a unit it should fear, etc.): also, on higher difficulties, the AI gets defense and attack bonuses which roughly equal a valor point.

Of course, it still does not explain why the unit of armored spear-men wouldn't be killed by the forces you threw at them. Nonetheless, I wouldn't charge spears with katanks head-on... As noted by katank himself: unless they are a royal/prince unit, their stats are not that great. Especially against spears.

As to my experience, I've gotten surprising results in a few flanking/rear attack moves: the AI unit being flanked would split into two (i.e., the front of their unit would still fight the pinning unit, while the rear would turn against my flanking unit and establish another front line). In those cases I've had some really bizarre losses.

Sometimes, I wonder how, for heavens sake, can these double streched units maintain 'formation'... which is what obviously happens in the case of spears: I would see the front of their unit neatly ordered against my sword attackers (in ususal situations, the spear unit would have already lost its formation against swords anyways) while their 180 degree turned rear appears to be receiving rank bonuses despite huge distance between their 'back of the unit' soldiers...

[Tricky Lady]

Quote[/b] (Ragss @ May 25 2004,00:11)]Has this ever happened to you guys? Just insane losses when it should have been a breeze?
Almost every time when I get backstabbed and the backstabber deploys a massive attack on my navy. I can't remember that I've ever "survived" any of those backstabbing navy attacks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif Stupid naval AI.

[katank]

@kristaps, that effect has been observed often.

my friend once had been fighting some italian pavisiers and those pavisiers somehow turned around and had half of them kill the rear attacking knight templar and holding off the flanking swords and order foot pinning all at once.

slaughtered them all.

meanwhile, I had my a unit of my own byz inf do pretzel formation and beat off four charging Danish RKs and some Vikings.

I wish you really had a pretzel/porcupine formation.

that for spears would be really strong although they get penalties against missiles.

BTW, it's quite possible to get units to split.

with cav, charge one unit and while engaged, charge another.

this makes your unit split occasionally and improve combat power.

early battle in antioch.

my bedouin charging right in between eggy sultan and his prince both pinned by my spears.

charged sultan in the flanks and then double clicked on the prince on the other side.

result: my camels split and hit both flanks, entirely crumbling their ghulams and won the day.

[hundurinn]

Quote[/b] ]Has this ever happened to you guys? Just insane losses when it should have been a breeze?

Just attacked France. I had around 1100 men and they 300 GUESS WHAT. For some reason my men who had high valor started to flee for no obvious reason. Then the general fled but only to have my wrath on him so he was the only one who attacked France the next round. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif With the general gone I just attacked them with 5000 and now I surrounded the enemy and no one was alive after that battle

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 25 2004,12:51)]BTW, it's quite possible to get units to split.

with cav, charge one unit and while engaged, charge another.

this makes your unit split occasionally and improve combat power.

early battle in antioch.

my bedouin charging right in between eggy sultan and his prince both pinned by my spears.

charged sultan in the flanks and then double clicked on the prince on the other side.

result: my camels split and hit both flanks, entirely crumbling their ghulams and won the day.
i have done that myself on many occasions. usually the split happens when i chase one missile unit and i see another one aiming: i charge the other one with the same attacking unit. the attackers split forcing the second missile unit to skirmish.

nonetheless, i have not observed improvement in combat power with a split unit (i have to stress: with a split u nit of MINE): i rather see individual riders undecisively running back and forth between the two targets... i guess, the behavior under such a scenario is not that predictable.

as to units being able to split and defend two directions: i agree it is practically viable (actually, it should be more frequent than it is in the game as it stands, where, in most cases, men attacked in the rear don't turn if simultaneously pinned by another unit).

what's not so viable in my opinion, is having spearmen spread several men apart in an apparent chaotic formation still getting the darned rank bonus... :) it could be just an animation glitch though. but judging by my casualties, it was not...

on a similar note, i've seen AI archer units split fighting in two directions, spread over half the map, gain some miraculous powers... i still vividly (and sadly) remember the battle in which vanilla archers (valor 0, after the death of their general) melee slaughtered a unit of ghulam cavalry (frontal assault) and a unit of rear-attacking turcoman riders...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[ThePeach]

Playing as Turks, battle with egypt. It was a small battle, 'gyptians had some one unit of ghulams, some spearmen and some arabalesters. I had two units of horse archers and some spearmen. I sent my skirmishers out to draw hassle him while our spears met in the middle... anyways, they flanked with the ghulams, so i was forced to engage him melee with one unit of skirmishers while i hit his 'lesters the swords of my other skirmishers. now, i was expecting the ghulams to slaughter me, and they did... but the arabalesters charged my other horsies and 0WNED them. it was bizarre... or maybe i'm just a bad commander, i dunno

[katank]

arbs are actually ok melee troops and far better than vanilla archers so don't expect your men to just run them over.

I do find that splitting is useful for flanking as only half a unit of cav is enough to achieve a breakthrough on the flank and roll it up.

a unit of cav in the middle can wreak havoc on two units and I find it very useful.

[squippy]

Yeah I generally try to use knights or other heavy cav or melee inf against arbs and pav arbs; they are too resilient not to attack vigorously. Even if you get the best of them with a less powerful unit, it will take so long the fighting will have moved on. This also means I'm not too afraid of leaving arbs and pav arbs in front when I receive a frontal assault either.

I first noticed all this 'cos my arbs were regularly coming away with handfuls of prisoners. 'Bizarre', I thought, until I saw both that they would get stuck in and that they were quite tough. But I'm not having as much success with handgunners...

[katank]

handguns are actually not bad at all in melee.

it's just that they have more attack and less defense than arbs.

use the handguns to flank or rear attack by firing some volleys first and then charge hom for the kill.

pavise versions of arbs and x-bows are far more resilient in both duels and melee.

I will sometimes use light cav even if they don't beat them readily.

the idea is to simply halt their murederous volleys from slaughtering my expensive heavy troops.

[gaijinalways]

I'm surprised; when I have used pavaise xbow or albasters they usually are too slow Remember, they are dragging that shield with them. So often, they are my favorite AI target for my cavs if you can get close quick enough without your cav unit(s) routing (helps sometimes if you have two sets of cavs approaching (one group may rout, i.e. the one being shot at).

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (gaijinalways @ May 27 2004,10:55)]I'm surprised; when I have used pavaise xbow or albasters they usually are too slow Remember, they are dragging that shield with them. So often, they are my favorite AI target for my cavs if you can get close quick enough without your cav unit(s) routing (helps sometimes if you have two sets of cavs approaching (one group may rout, i.e. the one being shot at).
Well, usually, the AI arbalesters and pavises are less likely to have a full range of morale upgrades. Without those, these units are likely to rout if charged by cavalry. Nonetheless, if one can make them stay on the field: they can fare pretty good in a melee situation.

p.s., note though that on expert, the AI has a +4 default morale boost across the spectrum of their units. i believe the boost is the same as a church + a monastery for catholic factions.

[ThePeach]

arg... i've played more shogun than medieval, and my insticnts worked against me there - in shogun horse archers melee murders foot arches in close.

[econ21]

Dunno - maybe I don't play enough, but nearly always combats play out as I feel they "should". It's quite a tribute to the game - nearly every so-called hardcore wargame I've played ends up feeling a lot more "gamey" than TWs real time battles. If things go awry, it's usually because I've done something dumb - eg been caught in the flank, let ghulams fight camels, attacked a surprisingly high valour unit with dross etc. I must admit, though, the first time I saw 60 Mongol foot archers mince through 100 spearmen I had a double-take Looking at the stats later, I could see why but I was not expecting it.

The most impressive moments for me, though, are when the AI occaisionally rushes my line with infantry and seconds later, hits me with cavalry. A kind of combined arms charge, rather like the British infantry at Waterloo running with the charge of the Scots Greys. By combining the two types - cav and infantry - it sometimes seems able to squash my front, whether it's spears or swords. My army usually routs from the field in seconds. Doesn't happen often, but when it does, I can only bow to the AI.

[TheSilverKnight]

Quote[/b] (Colovion @ May 25 2004,01:46)]Yeah - like that time when I charged my General of Royal Knights into a charging group of peasants and out of the two knights that they kill, one was my General - DOH http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif
As I always say and will continue to say: Bloody peasants http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[katank]

@ simon, so true.

this game is pretty good due to intuitive elements of it although a grasp of stats is also necessary.

the AI is also erratic, capable of brilliant maneuvers sometimes and other times rank stupidity.

[son of spam]

I've had annoying things like that. In fact, today I had 1v chiv seargeants rout my 2v 2w 2a huscarles. Sure the huscarles got charged from behind, but still. They had 57 men left, so it couldn't have been morale penalty for high casualties.

Must've been luck combined with valor gain. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif Stupid luck. I hate it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[gaijinalways]

Hitting behind will carry the day on occasion, but also the deadly hits by several units at once (usually what we players like to do, gang up on an AI unit(s). If when the unit is very high valor, if you mob it you might kill/rout the unit.

I had some fairly high valor crusader knights (maybe Templars) and they were routing some horse archers I had even without contact. Finally, I got my chance to close and routed them by hitting them with three units at the same time, all from the front. Lost some men, but since I was defending it was a necessary evil (the AI was attempting to attack my missile units and my general).

[WorkNeglecter]

Quote[/b] (Ragss @ May 25 2004,00:11)]Has this ever happened to you guys? Just insane losses when it should have been a breeze?
Here's an AI maneuver that put me to shame:

I invade Rebel-held Milan with a small force, to assist a French and Papal invasion. I've got 1 arb, 1 Slav Warrior, 1 Szekely and 1 RK. The Pope brings huge numbers of UM and peasants, the French some archers and mixed infantry. The rebels are MS, spears, FS, and some hobilars. All high valour, but outnumbered by us.

I put my troops in the rear, behind the mass of allies, thinking that I can take them later to flank.

As I'm moving into position behind them, the two rebel hobilar units come FLYING out of the woods, instantly flanking me and destroying my arbs and slavs.

I tried to get around to their rear to charge them with my RKs but it wasn't fast enough and they got caught in the routing infantry, lost their charge bonus. My Szekely lost its nerve and fled.

The Rebels then routed the others.

It was a brilliant ambush, to my embarassment.

[nightcrawlerblue]

Well if you read my current PBEM... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[ah_dut]

I've had a unit of peasants rout my one man army valour 30 Katank before. Luckily, he turned around and killed about 3000 peasants. Muhahahahahaha

[Ragss]

I just was playing medmod, and had another of these moments. I charge head on into FMAA with 2 valour Norman Knights (medmod) then go around and charge DOWNHILL right into there rear. This unit if FMAA was already at 40/60 do to my longbows btw. This single unit of FMAA brought 80 Norman Knights down to a total of 10 I eventually charged in 40 Norman Sgts and some claymores and a single guy finally ran away.

[katank]

how much valor was that FMAA? did it have a forest of little flags?

in case anyone didn't know, the little flags show how many valor the unit has.

[Ragss]

Unit Type: FeudalManAtArms
Is General: YES
Is Faction Leader: NO
Leader Name: Sir William of Ypres
Kills This Battle: 85
Losses This Battle: 60
Inital Cost of Unit: 2478
Soldier Pre-Battle Honour Post-Battle Honour Armour Weapon Kills Friendly Kills How Soldier Left Battle
1 GEN 8 8 1 1 6 0 DEAD
2 3 3 1 1 0 0 DEAD




This shows that they were 3 valour...According to the unit calculator, the normans who charged their rear should have decimated them...but they didn't, not at all.

[katank]

this fella was general so he could be uber jedi.

also, only 2 men can fight a fella at a time so the general alone could be fighting only the norman knights chargin him in the front, winning and routing them, then turning around and slaughtering the norman knights in the rear.

far fetched? perhaps but I've seen worse eg. jedis who kill about 200 of my men and escape.