Catholic knights of muslim beliefs

[Hetman]

Strange it seems, but Tatar nobles who lived in Lithuania and Poland were regarded as nobles equal to the catholic ones, even if they still were muslim

Because of this it is justified to call them knights

Indeed they did earned the title fighting in every single war or uprising Poland has fought from Tannenberg 1410 to 1920 ( Bolshevik invasion) and September 1939.

Even the conservative, xenophobic and fanatically catholic "Bar confederacy" ( 1768-71, general Pulasky was one of commanders) accepted
muslim nobles ( some of them founded the confederacy actually ) with no doubts - this way another meaning for the word 'xenophoby' can be found.

Several Tatar families still live in eastern Poland.

Regards Hetman/Cegorach http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
The nobles of Kazan and Astrakhan khanates enjoyed the similar privilidges after being absorbed by Russia. Apparently, during the reign of Yekaterina II, muslim population experienced a relative religious freedom in the Russian empire.
_

[Shahed]

Thanks, that's quite an interesting piece of info.

I did not actually understand this bit and would appreciate if you could explain it to me:

"Even the conservative, xenophobic and fanatically catholic "Bar confederacy" ( 1768-71, general Pulasky was one of commanders) accepted
muslim nobles ( some of them founded the confederacy actually ) with no doubts - this way another meaning for the word 'xenophoby' can be found"

Other than that Muslims have served with Europeans all over the world throughout the ages, what makes this example you gave intriguing is that they were given equal status.

Another example is back to Muslim Spain: Jews, Christians and Muslims enjoyed equal status.

The concept of knights as in the European sense is absent in Islamic armies but they had similar reward systems (i.e land) systems for some soldiers e.g Turkish Sipahi

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (Sinan @ May 25 2004,04:54)]"Even the conservative, xenophobic and fanatically catholic "Bar confederacy" ( 1768-71, general Pulasky was one of commanders) accepted
muslim nobles ( some of them founded the confederacy actually ) with no doubts - this way another meaning for the word 'xenophoby' can be found"
Yes it's my foult, I complicated this too much, I believe.

In XVIIIth century Poland was a vassal state of Russia, but majority of the society disliked the fact very much.

They formed at least two 'factions' - the reformators ( who decided to do as much as possible avoiding millitary confrontation with Russia as long as possible) and 'the patriots' who were much less patient and against reforms.

The second faction was much more powerful at that time. After several Polish senators were kidnapped they decided not to wait any more. In 1768 they founded confederacy in Bar ( present central Ukraine).
These nobles were fanatically catholic,even 'supercatholic'.
One of their targets was the banishment of all foreigners and 'heretics' ( protestant for example, but not Jews and Muslim for example), so they were xenophobic in a way. But still they were Poles and polish intolerance was still much weaker than in many other countries ( no legal persecution for many years, no burned heretics and so on). The Lithuanian ( or Polish) Tatars were respected and their help was of much value ( very good soldiers). That's why muslims were joining 'catholic only' confederacy.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Shahed]

Ahhh I understand now. Sorry I did not know that about Polish history. Thanks for clearing that up for me. SO what happened to them since then ? Are there still Tatars in Poland ? DO you have any good websites in English, German or French (can't speak Polish http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) where I could read up some more on this ?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (Sinan @ May 25 2004,08:14)]Ahhh I understand now. Sorry I did not know that about Polish history. Thanks for clearing that up for me. SO what happened to them since then ? Are there still Tatars in Poland ? DO you have any good websites in English, German or French (can't speak Polish http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) where I could read up some more on this ?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
About websides I can try to find some.

I could send You e-mail with info about Lithuanian Tartars which was made for The Lords (Polish faction).

I'll write something and post tomorrow.

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Red Peasant]

Quote[/b] (Sinan @ May 25 2004,09:54)]Another example is back to Muslim Spain: Jews, Christians and Muslims enjoyed equal status.
Hmmm, I don't know about this. Toleration, even benevolent toleration, is not 'equality'. Whether Christian to Muslim, or vice versa. There could be no full political equality in these states, but they were extremely enlightened for their time in many ways.

[Hetman]

OK, I checked my sources - I got lucky and found a book describing customs, history and everything else about the Tatars in Poland.

First. Tatars called Polish kings 'white Khans' white means respected, powerful and independent.

Second. The tolerance in Poland.
One of the greatest achievements of Polish society. There was no persecution because of personal beliefs for most of time. It was said in the XVIth century probably 'if you don't know who is your God come to Poland you'll find out there'. In 1572 in Warsaw the declaration of religious freedom so called 'Warsaw Confederacy' was signed, the reason was that the newly elected king of Poland was Henri de Valois who slaughtered protestants on 24th August 1572 and not even one man in Poland didn't want the same. From now on every Polish king had to swear he will respect the idea of freedom of belief.
BTW when Valois fled from Poland it was a Tatar unit which pursued him.

Ultimately Henri spread out the custom of using of fork during a meal in France - the Poles learnt this from Rus nobles ( not Russian)- it was his only one achievement I guess.

Third. The answers.

"SO what happened to them since then ?"

Well... They were fighting in every polish war and uprising i.e. war in 1792, uprisings in 1794, 1831, 1863 ( only the ones in eastern Poland).
Actually many times entire population supported Polish national uprisings ( Polish means - Polish/Lithuanian/Belorussian/Jewish/German/Ukrainian and many, many more nationalities at that time). Tatars were fighting to the very end ( e.g. when eastern Warsaw was butchered in 1794).
When Napoleon created the Duchy of Warsaw they volunteered forming several cavalry units, and when the war against Russia ( so called 'Second Polish War') in 1812 started they formed a squadron in Napoleon's Guards. They were fighting alongside the famous Polish Lancers to 1814, it is possible that few of them fought at Waterloo (100 Polish Lancers were Napoleon's personal bodyguards they joined him in Elba for example; and it is possible that one or two were Tatars - but it is my own idea, I'm not sure about it) and smashed British elite cavalry there.
When Poland was reborn in 1918 they created entire cavalry regiment which fought in Polish-Russian war ( 1919-1920). In September 1939 a Tatar squadron fought in 13th Uhlan Regiment against German and Russian
invaders. Some of them died in Katyn, in German deathcamps or in Syberia, but some were lucky and joined Polish Army in the West. It is even possible that some were fighing in the 1st Polish Armoured Division which means they were fighting in France, Belgium, Holland and Germany.
It seems Polish Tatars were more patriotic than most of catholic Poles


"Are there still Tatars in Poland ?"

I'm not sure how many today, but before the II World War there were about 6000 muslim Tatars in Poland.
Today probably the number is larger, but I'm not sure - some are catholic or orthodox today.
They live in eastern Poland ( northern part especially) and in Warsaw.
Some are living in western Poland, their families migrated from former eastern Poland ( present Lithuania and Belorussia).
The Grand Mufti of Poland is Tatar.

BTW They really were knights equal to catholic, protestant or orthodox nobles in Poland.

I hope it is interesting.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Could you check if they were -albeit partially- exiled by Stalin (and his companions) like the Crimeans were?
_

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (Mouzafphaerre @ May 26 2004,03:46)]-
Could you check if they were -albeit partially- exiled by Stalin (and his companions) like the Crimeans were?
_
Yes, I'm sure, but rather because they were considered Polish (of muslim beliefs) at that time.
Most of former Polish soldiers were sent to Siberia, and most of Tatars were Polish soldiers or their families.

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif