Heavy horse Bow tactics

[Mightypeon]

Well, many persons would class Boyars and Sipaphi as an inferior unit. They loose a lot to Knights in the stats department and only get some Bows for it.
And Bows are not exactly a fear infringing weapon of mass destruction.
So, how to use them?`

So, lets look at the stats first.


Boyars:
Charge 4 Attack 3 Defence 5 Armour 5 Speed 9, 20, 22 Morale 6 Cost 550 Support cost 105

Dismount: In a siege for feudal men at arms.

Statwise there are second only to the Turkish Sipaphi, and (unless you are playing medmod) they are better than Sipaphi because you get 40 Boyars vs 20 Sipaphis.
They can be relied on to destroy archers with ease. They usually win against men at arms (be wary of Polearms) in close combat, especially if the pull of multiple charges.
This is significantly easier if you operate them in packs of 2. one charges in, backs out, the Swords follow are in a scattered formation and the other unit gets a significant bonus for their next charge.
In addition, their great morale allows them to be relied on.
They will usually get the job done or Die trying.
But what exaclty is their job?
if you just use them as a pure flanking force you could as well use Knights.
No, they have an additional option.
Once an AI unit gets some bowfire, the AI will take steps to prevent more bowfire from happening. This steps will usually include sending some units to deal with your Cav.
Usually they send some Spears and bows.
In a normal enviroemnt your 3 units should have no problems with 2 Spears and a Bow. Multicharge one Spear, charge the bows and ignore the other Spears unitl they get to close. Then do some fancy light cavalry dancing stuff (Boyars arent really fast, but they are significantly faster than Spearman) until your other 2 units are done with the first Spear unit and can go for the 2. Spear.
in the end, you have eliminated 3 enemy units and your Boyars can egnage the enemies rear whenever they want.

The next unit,Sipahi of the Porte
Charge 4 Attack 3 Defence 6 Armour 7 Speed 9, 20, 22 Morale 6 Cost 500 Support cost 105

Has even better stats but only comes in units of 20 unless you play medmod.
Their significantly better defense and armour gives them a high life expectance agaisnt anything whihc is not a charging knight or someone with an Axe or Polearm.
Note that their shooting abilites can be used to inflict the I am shot at morale penalty on the enemy, but 20 Short bows (which are the armament iirc) wont kill much.
However, they can lure in the same way Boyars can, However (AI bug? Dont know) the AI is more likely to send swords at them for whatever reason (maybe the unit size, it behaves normally in Medmod) which are breakfast for the Sipaphi.
In the end they use the same tactics as Boyars, deploy on a flank, lure some enemies away, kill them, return in time to charge the rear of the main battle.

These are the 2 Knights with Bow types

There are 2 2 other type of Bow armed heavy Cav, who just arent as good as Boyars and Sipaphi. Lithunian Cav and Byzantine cavalry.

Lithunian Cav:
Charge 6 Attack 2 Defence 3 Armour 4 Speed 9, 20, 22 Morale 2 Cost 225 Support cost 50

Dismount: Anytime for archers.

An importantn thing to note is that Lithuanian Cav lives and dies with their charge bonus.
If they charge, their attacks get significantly stronger, and because they hit quite hard while charging not much is goign to strike back.
They can perform the same jobs as Boyars and Sipaphi but have to be monitored more closely as they get swamped without the charge boon and they hae a signifantly lower morale to boot with.

The next enty is:
Byzantine cavalry
Charge 2 Attack 3 Defence 3 Armour 4 Speed 9, 20, 22 Morale 4 Cost 400 Support cost 85
They are a bit more tricky to use. Their charge bonus is insignificant, however they have an attack value of 3 which isnt that bad.
Their leadership of 4 is also decent.
However they have significant problems in dealing with infantry in close combat.
Their charge is simply to weak. If playing the Byzantines you should consider backing them up with Katanks or other heavy Cav.

The remaining units simply dont cut it in close combat, unelss they are attacking missle troops of course.
In general, a missle cav unit is always better of attacking a bow unit than shooting at it.
Some expection (Mounted Archer vs. Jannisarry Archers) are of course included.

[Bhruic]

Hmm, unless you are playing a different version of the game, I think you've confused Lithuanian Cav with Steppe Heavy Cav. Lithuanian Cav aren't archers unless they dismount.

Bh

[RedKnight]

Thanks for that overview, MP - I should try more of those tactics. Especially where one unit charges to get the attacked unit to follow, and break their formation -- then you whack'em again.

Right, as a Xn, the only bow horses one can get are Turcopoles or Steppe Heavies. I love both of them... there's nothing funner than shooting and running. Sometimes, if the enemy has little or no heavy cav, I will start an attack battle very turcopole heavy... let them shoot all their arrows, maybe catch a stray unit or two... then retreat, and let my real army mangle what's left after the HAs whittled them down.

[VikingHorde]

I love those Steppe Heavy Cav. They lack the charge that knights have, but fight very good in mele. Give them a Master horse and extra armour and they are realy deadly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[ichi]

Nice post peon. Boyars are tanks - very tuff and they can shoot.

Bhruic is right, Lith Cav aren't archers, they are essentially the same as Armenian Heavy Cav. Steppe Heavy Cav have a strong defense bonus.

I disagree with your assessment that Sipahi and Boyars are the two Knights with Bows. Faris and Szekely also are tuff - a V2 Szekely has just one less combat bonus that a V0 Chiv. Szeks start a morale 4 so they need a little valor, but Szeks are also a very effective option. Its always fun to watch a MP game when an opponent sends a Chiv Knight to chase one of my Szeks - after running and shooting a little, when the fight starts it is always harder than they expect. Faris and Szeks are better than Byz Cav.

The most effective counter for any of these Ranged Knights is the lowly Horse Archer (also effective are protected archers). If you can trade HA volleys with a Boyar or a Szek, you are trading low cost men for valuable men.

ichi

[katank]

well, vanilla HAs don't get much shield or armor and will actually lose in a missile duel.

spears shielding archers are better.

BTW, boyars don't lose to knights in melee. they get small shield which makes all the difference in the world.

they can beat equal valor katanks and even feudal knights

they are absolute tanks with some shooting ability.

don't forget the jinette which does its job well in addition to mtd. x-bows. these are your only AP missiles in early unless bribed of wales or baltic provinces.

they are also mounted so skirmishing with them almost invariably bags a few of those annoying jedi royals.

also consider the berber camel warriors.

they are actually quite good against horsies and outrange jinettes etc.

[Oaty]

My biggest problem is the A.I. likes to hit my Boyars with there archers wich can be deadly because as soon as they engage the archers have shot down 20 of them already. Also the comp likes to train a lot of them

[katank]

that's where microing comes in.

set them to loose in 1 or two ranks at the beginning and march towards the archers.

keeping the cursor over the archers, once they are said to be reloading, order your boyars to charge.

the speed difference would cause the arrows to all fall behind the boyars and you don't take a single loss.

after charge begines, switch to tight and wedge.

the wedged charge impact should knock out about 20 archers and the switching to close woudl cause a beautiful wrap effect that will finish the rest off in short order.

I rarely lose more than 5 of the boyars.

many times, they finish the archers off before their spears can arrive to help.

I rarely had AI keep their spear/archers together.

they always break up after a bit of cav maneuvering.

knock out their archer support and their infantry is game for missile baiting in which you draw them after you only to charge that unit in flanks and rear with cav. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Mightypeon]

Well, I am playing vanilla 1.85 medmod. No Szelekys, no Steppe heavy horse and shooting Lith Cav for me.

For the point of shielding archers and spears:
Well, if he has to use 2 units too defend agisnt one of your units than he is goign to miss another unit elsewhere.
If my light bow cav encounters such thing they simply move away.
If the follow: Well, the enemy is not on the main line.
If he doesnt follow my light bow cav posisitons themselvs behind the mellee (in case of really weak light cav like HA or mtd. CBs) or charges into it. Note that the enemy gets a (slightly smaller) negative morale modiefier for having your Cav in the rear, you do not neccearily have to charge.
With Boyars/Spipaphi: Well, charge the spaer with one unit, rout the bows with the other one, then immediatly get the victorios boyars in the flanks of the spears. Rear charge, + beeign worried at flank + maybe beeign shot at + routing freindlies + loosing combat even routs them on hard. In addition chances are that one of your Cav units will be attacking downhill so you can add the mountain negative value to the thing.
However, Bows (not longbows) dont scratch Boyars anyway, so you can as well ignore the bows and multicharge the Spears instantly.



P.S. Hey, I got senior Patron yeehhaaa

[katank]

actually the boyars do get hurt by concentrated bow fire.

sure they are heavily armoured, but two units of vanilla archers taking potshots at them hurt as theya re quite expensive.

losing 10 of them is like more than 100 florins down the drain. (roughly two archers shooting at the boyars if the boyars are marching into range).

bait and lure is better. make sure their archers can't stay in the front or else risk getting charged and also their spears can't be in the front else take heavy archer fire.

better to use the boyars in conjunction with dismounted druzhina aka 60 men FFK.

In my Russian power armies, I use 12 boyars and 4 druzhina which translates into equivalent of 8 units of archers in fire power, 12 units of knights in melee, with 240 foot knights to boot.

nothing in early can even come close to that.

it's great to draw out the enemy with HA tactics using boyars and then charging with boyars or using FFK to crush them.

[son of spam]

Quote[/b] (Bhruic @ May 25 2004,04:57)]Hmm, unless you are playing a different version of the game, I think you've confused Lithuanian Cav with Steppe Heavy Cav. Lithuanian Cav aren't archers unless they dismount.

Bh
Yeah, he's playing medmod. Lith Cav have arrows now so they actually have a purpose.

[katank]

what are the build reqs for lith cav in medmod?

are they still insane?

[SwordsMaster]

In my Russian campaigns I used 6 boyards, 3 spears (just in case someone had an impetuous heir looking for glory http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )
2 mounted druzhynas (for chasing and occasional support for boyards or spears), and the rest dismounted.


worked fine http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[katank]

lol

anyone see the need for armored spears over rus spearmen?

rus spearmen works better for me.

I like the dismounted drzhina aka FFK, boyar combo as it's like the weaker verions of CK, CFK combo except in early and having missile support.

it's darn expensive though as those boyars are 550 a pop.

[SwordsMaster]

Quote[/b] ]it's darn expensive though as those boyars are 550 a pop

thats right.

Actually Im always in an economic hole in all games that envolve economics.(I would even have bankrupt in Quake 3 if I could http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ). Dunno why, but in all MTW campaigns I always see that We cant train coz ur out of cash message til I get 40% of the map. Then it disappears by sheer tax I guess.

What I noticed is that in NTW is harder to get bankrupt.


Actually, the Boyar-FFk-rus spearmen combo is indeed deadly.
I defeated once a 1200 men army with 2 boyars, 1 ffk and 3 rus spears.I just lost 23 soldiers, only 2 of them ffk, not a single boyar.

I took the front with boyars and surrounded with the rus spears (3 ranks deep, they were almost 3 times my size) (Its usually done the other way around, but circumstances are circumstances), then flanked with ffk, and charged head on with boyars. They didnt even wait for the boyars to engage and just started running. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[katank]

I would say economics before military for most factions and farming/mines before trade.

for russians, this is doubly true.

I would make a beeline for Const. and Asia Minor for good rich provinces.

I also have a small army and put down rebellions for cash sometimes.

slav warriors and vikings are very cheap and effective.

only after you hit Const, can you pump out advanced units like boyars and even druzhina.

[SwordsMaster]

that might be the problem, I build them as soon as I can, and as fas as I can. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Thanks for the advice m8. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[katank]

exactly.

trying to hit keep in more than 1 province is not doable in Early Rus game.

I only take Smolensk, Lith, Vol, Mooldavia, Bulg, and Const.

this way, I can cut off Polish and Hunnic expansion into the steppes and consolidate the steppes later.

build only farming and forts while possibly heading to keep in Novgorod.

if you get Const, you almost invariably get armourer guild and sword shop or guild and spear buildings.

this means you can train buffed rus spears right away and building horse buildings yields first druzhina and then boyars as well.

with nice farming there, you are set.

huge slav warrior garrisons are enough to deter the Poles or Huns and your massed vikings can actually slice up the enemy byz inf and even varangians if you outnumber them which is pretty easy considering you can get 5-6 per year while they get 1 byz inf a year and none once you take Const.

the katanks can be handled by boyars. shoot and bait. when in melee, don't worry as the boyars actually kill katanks at equal valor.

still nice to run them ragged and shoot em up a bit to soften them though.

no problemo, m8 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[SwordsMaster]

What I usually do is build up Muscovy and Novgorod and then hit Finland and Sweden,and all the provs down to the Black sea. So I can build steppe cav in huge amounts to support the expensive Boyars.I cant build them too fast coz Im out of money (constantly). The poles are usually too busy with the HRE, and by the time I get down there, the byz are usually either wiping out the Turks or wiped out by the turks, in any case, theres a huge army sitting in Cons.

I'll try hitting Const first and see what happens. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[katank]

building up the steppes take waaaay too long and you are so cash strapped it's not even funny.

you want to rush to Const. for boyars, Moldavia to get avar nobles and bulgaria for birgands to some extent.

never could justify the build reqs for brigands though.

by the time I build to them, I usually am around high and frequently find pav arbs to be better for killing.

brigands are good for screening an advance though due to their speed and fair melee capacity.

try to upgrad armor and morale for these guys as they need morale badly and armor is always good for missiles.

[Ard-Ri McCullaugh]

I noticed that Mightypeon mentioned dismounting cavalry units. I have been aware of this capability, yet have not chosen to use it. Is it worthwhile, or merely something done when the enemy has overwhelming pike/spear units? I don't see why abandoning the horses is a good idea, but perhaps someone could explain it to me.

[ah_dut]

Hello Katank but in medmod 3.14 katanks have bows http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif so your boyars better watch it. besides, katank units are generally prince retinue's in medmod so you have a bunch of valour 15 jedi frieks against your boyars, and the princes can easily be up to 9 stars http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif so you have got to watch your back on that one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[squippy]

Quote[/b] (Ard-Ri McCullaugh @ May 31 2004,20:56)]Is it worthwhile, or merely something done when the enemy has overwhelming pike/spear units? I don't see why abandoning the horses is a good idea, but perhaps someone could explain it to me.
Play a couple of custom battles with foot knights and watch the kill ratios. They are mighty. I have to admit I seldom turn knights into foot knights in a field battle, but it is a serious option to consider, especially on the late game as many units are heavily armoured and carry anti-cav weaponry. Prmarily I think of it as a defensive option (footknights defending a castle assualt are worth their weight in gold) where you expect to engage on a limited frontage. |nother option might be forcong briodge crossings, although I am wary opf exposing expensive knights to arbalest fire.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Ard-Ri McCullaugh @ June 01 2004,03:56)]I noticed that Mightypeon mentioned dismounting cavalry units. I have been aware of this capability, yet have not chosen to use it. Is it worthwhile, or merely something done when the enemy has overwhelming pike/spear units? I don't see why abandoning the horses is a good idea, but perhaps someone could explain it to me.
Mounted troops are for mobility and charge, but dismounted troops are quite often better for a drawn-out melee.

In castle battles you don't need (much) mobility, so you can dismount you knights for more staying power.
When facing armies heavy on anti-cavalry weapons dismounting can be usefull, but also when facing missile weapons (castle defences ) because that horse is a big an vulnerable target. Foot troops last longer under missile fire, although they do take longer to reach the archers.
Lastly, some cavalry dismounted troops which are very powerful in their own right. Most often mentioned is Russian Druzinah cavalry, which turns into feudal foot knights at any battle (unlike feudal knights which only dismount in castle battles). Chivalric knights become chivalric footknights with polearms, which are devastating at chopping up other cavalry. Just make sure they don't recieve the charge http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif . And sahara cavalry can turn into Murabitin infantry: javelin troops otherwise only available to the Almohads. Unfortunatly, this can only be done in sieges.

[katank]

note: druzhina become 60 men FFK

this is impossible to do with normal feudals and is far better than dismounting dedicated feudal knights and cheaper.

I think druzhina are rarely meant to be used as cav but to fill in the important lack of swordsmen for russians otherwise.

CFK is also one of the few polearms around that gets a +3, +1 bonus vs. cav and are one of the strongest foot inf in the game

this along with 4 base AP attack means that a unit of CFK can easily take out mounted CK of equal valor.

mtd. x-bows can also dismount into regular x-bows in sieges and this is the only way you can get x-bows in early unless you bribe the Lith, livonia, prussian garrison.

[ah_dut]

CFK are a bit slow though Katank

[cutepuppy]

That's why you should mainly use them in defense. I love it when the Golden Horde comes around and i have 30-35 units of CFK (dismounted CK and dismounted crusader cavalry), 30 units of pav arbs and a good deal of steppe cavalry and some spearmen.

[katank]

I know CFK are slow and I still prefer JHI over them for field battles.

However, bridge battles and castle defense against the horde is a different matter as my brave CFK chew up wave after wave of MHC and holds onto the fortress so that my towers bag even more kills

[Oleander Ardens]

Agreed there Katank;

CFK are the finest polearms avaiable to the katholics and are good against all sorts of heavily armored infantry and are nothing else than superb against heavy cavalry...

As long they are well supported by ranged units few enemys can touch them

[Mightypeon]

Hmm, as a HRE player I tend to prefer the Gothic version.
As something else: Did you notice that Naptha Mercs are quite cheap in support?:P
Seriosly, I had some great games with them and I now try never to leavy home without them.
Hmm, I alsmot never get castle attacked by the way.
Is there a way to increase the CA number?

[SwordsMaster]

hmmm.... just tried a custom battle with good results when using your Boyards as line infantry. i.e.:

WWWWW BBBBBBBBB WWWWWW

LLLLL AAAA SSSS DDDDDD


L: light cav (steppe cav in this case)
B: boyar
W: swords (dismounted druzhina)
A: archers/xbows
S: spears (2 unit of rus spearmen)
D: woodsmen

The purpose of this is losing as few men as possible: the FFK are perfectly able to chew thru almost any unit, leaving then space for your light cavs and faster (than FFK) vikings to surround absolutely the enemy and charge from the rear, at the same time boyars charge from the front.usually noone escapes. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

The boyars were previously used as usual cav archer unit to harass the approaching enemy and charged their archers.

This will probably not work so well against a missile heavy armour piercing army, but it is well suited for the early russian period. You could even substitute more FFK for woodsmen, but the losses are going to be greater.

enjoy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

[ichi]

If there is any cav archer that could serve as line infantry, it would be the Boyars.

But. . .

at 550 florins they pretty expensive, upkeep a little high also. I would swap the Spearmen and Boyars in your diagram, let the cheap swords take the losses and wear out the enemy while the Boyars shoot from behind, then charge with the Boyars or better yet, flank with em.

I like the 60 man FFK from dismounted Druz in the front, probably put my spears on the flank of the line to resist cav.

ichi

[SwordsMaster]

If you charge your FFk properly, by the time Boyars engage, they are almost breaking.I only had 2 boyar units (spread thin, 2- deep) and they didnt lose a single man.And they also can take arrow fire without much problem (specially if upgraded armor is available).

The Idea is to make the enemy turn to face the FFk that are slow enough as to leave him time to turn (they have no prob chopping their way thru anyway), so the boyars would charge int otheir flank and the woodsmen and stepes into the other flank ala Cannae.