New Unit Spartans

[Sir Robin]

New unit up at the .com

Did I actually scoop the regulars?

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Um...

A) What happened to the cool crest?
B) Why is he wearing a dress?

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] ]Um...

A) What happened to the cool crest?
B) Why is he wearing a dress?

Well...

a) He kept banging his head on the doorframe of his house so he had to remove it.

b) Because when they come on the field, their enemies are so busy dying of laughter they get handed victory automatically... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[hundurinn]

Quote[/b] ]b) Because when they come on the field, their enemies are so busy dying of laugter they get handed victory automatically...


I was always wondering about that. Finally I get a reasonable answer. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Though why did it come so early?
They are "Beyond Elite" Now there are some great news.

[Longshanks]

Quote[/b] (hundurinn @ May 27 2004,13:42)]Though why did it come so early?
The poll over at the .com for what should be this week's unit was a landslide in favor of the Spartans. Last time I checked the Spartans had 90 some votes while the second most popular unit only had about 20. My guess is CA put the Spartans up early since it was already clear that they "won" on the poll.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Oh man, that 'Beyong Elite' is so cool No if only they went back to the old style model...I really hate those helmets... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[The Wizard]

a) Their helmets were really like that. The Spartans considered themselves too bad-ass to wear Corinthian helmets. They already had these helmets wayyyy back in the TC battle Leuctra version of the game.

b) I don't know... but I have read and seen some historically-inspired drawings with the Spartan wearing these dresses (Men-at-arms series for instance)

This unit update sucks... there is nothing surprising and the damn unit hasn't changed since Leuctra. Yawn



~Wiz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-zzz.gif

[hundurinn]

They look rather, uhm I can't believe i'm going to say this, but they look rather ugly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ May 27 2004,20:03)]This unit update sucks... there is nothing surprising and the damn unit hasn't changed since Leuctra. Yawn
Well except for that funky gold band around the bottom of his dress, er sorry I mean cloak.

Must be making a fashion statement.

[shingenmitch2]

This is a well done late Spartan hoplite Props CA
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Folks, don't bitch about the Pylos helmet -- it is correct, as is the red cloak, and longer thrusting spear.

Only the officers wore the (ususally transverse) red crest on top of THIS same helmet style (not the Corinthian that we see stuck on the Carthaginian sacred band). I exepect that like the Romans have a Centurion for their basic Legionairre unit, the Spartans will have one crested commander for this unit.

--------------
Anyone from CA -- since this unit does not use pikes, and thus fight in the Hoplite-phalanx formation, will they be using an overhand thrust above the top of their shields? If not, why won't it happen? From a lay-man's standpoint it seems like a simple animation variant no harder than special "flung by elephant" visuals.

----------------

Oh, one quick suggestion. The Spartan's shield could use a big red Greek "Lambda - L" across the face of it.

[Basileus]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ May 27 2004,14:48)]Oh, one quick suggestion. The Spartan's shield could use a big red Greek "Lambda - L" across the face of it.
Indeed the L for Laconia should be there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

Unit looks quite good..

[RisingSun]

While I liked the old helmets, I understand these are historically correct, and so I'm content. But the Lambda was pretty cool, and they should bring it back.

[Trax]

One of the most beautiful units yet IMHO http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[The Wizard]

As I stated before:

This unit sucks. Not because of historical inaccuracy, not because of hoplites walking around in dressing gowns, but simply because this unit we have already seen. Nothing, nothing is new about this. The cloak, the helmet, right down to the arm-protectors, everything has already been showcased in TC, including their stats.

Give us something good, like 'West Parthian lancer', or 'Cretan archers', or 'hetairoi'. Not this (nevertheless well-done) unit which we have seen before.

This is only worth a big yawn. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-zzz.gif

P.S. The lambda is, strangely enough (it seems) the Macedonian symbol. This unit is of the bland, rebel-type, symbol-less kind.



~Wiz

[Trax]

I think Macedonians have an alpha on their shields - Antigonid.

[Basileus]

Wiz, the lambda stands for Laconia which is the region where sparta is located if im not mistaken.

[The Wizard]

As I know... I am simply stating what has been seen time and time again in screenshots and movies. I have had Greek you know http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flat.gif

BTW it's Λακηδαιμον (Lah-keh-dai-mohn) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

@Greeks: my Word did not have the alpha with attached iota, therfore alpha-iota (if it is spelled incorrectly)



~Wiz

[The Wizard]

The letter on Spartan hoploi...

Λ

Same letter on Macedonian shields ingame...



~Wiz

[biguth dickuth]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ May 27 2004,22:48)]Anyone from CA -- since this unit does not use pikes, and thus fight in the Hoplite-phalanx formation, will they be using an overhand thrust above the top of their shields? If not, why won't it happen? From a lay-man's standpoint it seems like a simple animation variant no harder than special "flung by elephant" visuals.
I thought of exactly the same when i saw the unit.
Their shield, as depicted here, is smaller than the actual "hoplon" shield (which reached from shoulder to knee) and made me think that they have probably (and unfortunately) kept the underhand thrust animation.

It just sprang into my mind when i noticed the size of the shield, because a normal "hoplon" shield was too big to allow an underhand thrust. Therefore, they reduced the size of the shield so that the underhand thrust simulation will not seem "odd".

All this is, of course, a speculation. A small conspiracy theory of mine... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

So please CA, give us the overhand thrust
It's not just for some whining history-wackos (like myself), it's for the game to look as good and convincing as it gets

[biguth dickuth]

By the way, Wizard, this horseman in the drawing under your name, what is he?
A persian lancer of some kind perhaps?

[econ21]

Boy, this is a tough crowd to please. I think it is a very nice unit - wish they were all similarly convincing. Come on folks, lighten up, we could have been given a frost wolf to counter the flaming pigs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[biguth dickuth]

Quote[/b] (Simon Appleton @ May 28 2004,04:10)]Boy, this is a tough crowd to please. I think it is a very nice unit - wish they were all similarly convincing. Come on folks, lighten up, we could have been given a frost wolf to counter the flaming pigs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Or some iron-horned, crazy, fanatic rhinocerus to counter the war-dogs... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

[Kaatar]

Worst unit yet What the hell is he wearing? He'd be tripping up over it. Shields too small too. Also, I picture the Spartans as being musclely monsters. This guy looks kinda like a sissy Spartan.

[Mr Durian]

I actually like the red cloak. But I think the design is too "dull". Should be a mix of red, black andgold. Plus the corinth helmet should be there to make them look more badass. I know it will be historically inaccurate but goddamn this is a game and I want badass units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[Rosacrux]

The design seems rather accurate (shiiit, did I just said accurate refering to a CA-Creative-Frankestein-Workshop unit design?) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif and the absence of the Lamda from the hoplon isn't really all that innacurate: The Spartans started using it during the mid 5th century BD, fully adopted it shortly before the Peloponesian war and carried on using it during the whole 4th century. With the demise of the former Spartan power in the 3rd century, the Lamda seems to have been partly abandoned.

The cloack is fairly OK, but a bit too much (covering the whole body like that). The pilos helmet is spot on (even though all Greek hoplites in this timeframe used equally the pilos design in several variations, the boeotean design and the phrygian type helmet).

I'd agree with the general dullness, but I won't bicker (much) about historical accuracy this time.

Now, I am starting a new campaign: I demand the historically accurate representation of the flaming pigs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

P.S. I really don't know about the shields of the Antigonids (Macedonian faction)... I've never heard of the
Λάμδα on their shields but maybe it's just a badly drawn "A" (for Antigonids) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Nowake]

As far as I know, even if this long cloak was not worn on the battlefield, they had a red short cape though, in order for their friends or foes not to observe they are bleeding http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Trax]

Quote[/b] (Mr Durian @ May 28 2004,09:03)]I actually like the red cloak. But I think the design is too "dull". Should be a mix of red, black andgold. Plus the corinth helmet should be there to make them look more badass. I know it will be historically inaccurate but goddamn this is a game and I want badass units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
Screw the corinthian helmet, I´m tired of seeing it everywhere http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[hundurinn]

It looks like CA often listen to the people that say that they only want historical accuracy so this is what happens http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif You get a unit that is "Beyond Elite" and it looks like crap, tough it is historical accurate. The cool helmets were gone for over 100 year. But at least we can rejoice this forum isn't as bad as the .com, at least concerning historical accuracy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[shingenmitch2]

Yah Dammit, I want badass, and a unit isn't baddass until it got some spikes coming out of it. I want spikes dammit. Maybe from his shoulders or knee-caps and Fek the spear I want the orcan meat-cleaver from Warhammer-- now THAT is badass. The unit could be like an ultra-spartans slayer unit. Fek it Black and skulls are badass, why isn't he all in black? Where is his skull shield emblem?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

------------------

As for the Mac shield -- representations/reconstructions I recall seeing have been of 2 varients -- either the all plain "silver -ed" shield or one that has colorful paintings of people and gods on the front. I don't know about them having an "A." Now, in the game I've seen shots of some greek units with what appears to be an "A" on their shield. I kinda assumed they were for Athens.

--------------------

Hey CA any thoughts on my ques about the overhand thrust?

[The_Emperor]

Well I'm not going to whine about this, if you guys say its accurate I'll take your word for it and learn to love the Spartans.

Besides its not how they look, its how they fight... and I'm sure we won't be dissapointed.

[Rosacrux]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ May 28 2004,07:12)]Yah Dammit, I want badass, and a unit isn't baddass until it got some spikes coming out of it. I want spikes dammit. Maybe from his shoulders or knee-caps and Fek the spear I want the orcan meat-cleaver from Warhammer-- now THAT is badass. The unit could be like an ultra-spartans slayer unit. Fek it Black and skulls are badass, why isn't he all in black? Where is his skull shield emblem?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

...excactly my thoughts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

[The Wizard]

AFAIK, the Antigonid dynasty of Macedon's weapon is unknown.

However, it has been said quite some times, and I've seen it too. At Raphia, the 'Egyptian' faction was actually the Macedonian faction, and as people that have seen that episode know, they had a Λάμδα as faction weapon.

I'll go search for a screenie now...

P.S. bd: The guy under my avatar is a Sarmatian argaragans, a nobleman of the Sarmatian tribes, charging ahead with his kontos.



~Wiz

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ May 27 2004,13:33)]
Quote[/b] ]Um...

A) What happened to the cool crest?
B) Why is he wearing a dress?

Well...

a) He kept banging his head on the doorframe of his house so he had to remove it.

b) Because when they come on the field, their enemies are so busy dying of laughter they get handed victory automatically... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif Just like me... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin2.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ May 27 2004,14:03)]a) Their helmets were really like that. The Spartans considered themselves too bad-ass to wear Corinthian helmets. They already had these helmets wayyyy back in the TC battle Leuctra version of the game.

b) I don't know... but I have read and seen some historically-inspired drawings with the Spartan wearing these dresses (Men-at-arms series for instance)
I agree on both counts. Although the helm is correct, the cape is a bit too long and covering too much.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ May 27 2004,14:48)]This is a well done late Spartan hoplite Props CA
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Folks, don't bitch about the Pylos helmet -- it is correct, as is the red cloak, and longer thrusting spear.

Only the officers wore the (ususally transverse) red crest on top of THIS same helmet style (not the Corinthian that we see stuck on the Carthaginian sacred band). I exepect that like the Romans have a Centurion for their basic Legionairre unit, the Spartans will have one crested commander for this unit.
Correct.



Quote[/b] ]Anyone from CA -- since this unit does not use pikes, and thus fight in the Hoplite-phalanx formation, will they be using an overhand thrust above the top of their shields? If not, why won't it happen? From a lay-man's standpoint it seems like a simple animation variant no harder than special "flung by elephant" visuals.
You don't skip a chance, do you? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif




Quote[/b] ]Oh, one quick suggestion. The Spartan's shield could use a big red Greek "Lambda - L" across the face of it.
Agreed.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ May 27 2004,18:29)]The letter on Spartan hoploi...

Λ

Same letter on Macedonian shields ingame...



~Wiz
The Macedonians should have Philip II's sun pattern...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ May 28 2004,01:57)]The design seems rather accurate (shiiit, did I just said accurate refering to a CA-Creative-Frankestein-Workshop unit design?) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Don't be bad, Rosacrux http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blank2.gif CA gave us a good historical unit representation...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ May 28 2004,07:12)]Yah Dammit, I want badass, and a unit isn't baddass until it got some spikes coming out of it. I want spikes dammit. Maybe from his shoulders or knee-caps and Fek the spear I want the orcan meat-cleaver from Warhammer-- now THAT is badass. The unit could be like an ultra-spartans slayer unit. Fek it Black and skulls are badass, why isn't he all in black? Where is his skull shield emblem?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif Beautifull sarcasm...

[Kraxis]

I like this unit... But the cloak is bad.

The shield is indeed too small, but somehow I think they have accidentally given him a too small shield as it is the samesize as the Silver Shield Pikeman shield, while the Carthie Sacreds have a much more accurate aspis. So, I hope it is just a little mistake.

The cloak is ok in colour, but too big in general. My old theory that the cloak was hard to render correctly when the man was fighting can't be used as other units have cloaks (the quite short celtic cloaks). This version would indeed make him trip all the time...
Now I suppose CA has given him this large dress/cloak because the Spartans at this time were said to be naked under the cloak and wear no armour. So the cloak lets them off on those two points.

The helmet is great. While it is not as cool as the corinthian helmet it grants the unit a sort of unique feeling, and it opens up the face where CA have even given the Spartan a beard (I would have liked a longer beard but ok).

But as I have said even before the poll was finished, he can't surprise anybody really.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ May 28 2004,10:03)]I like this unit... But the cloak is bad.

The shield is indeed too small, but somehow I think they have accidentally given him a too small shield as it is the samesize as the Silver Shield Pikeman shield, while the Carthie Sacreds have a much more accurate aspis. So, I hope it is just a little mistake.

The cloak is ok in colour, but too big in general. My old theory that the cloak was hard to render correctly when the man was fighting can't be used as other units have cloaks (the quite short celtic cloaks). This version would indeed make him trip all the time...
Now I suppose CA has given him this large dress/cloak because the Spartans at this time were said to be naked under the cloak and wear no armour. So the cloak lets them off on those two points.

The helmet is great. While it is not as cool as the corinthian helmet it grants the unit a sort of unique feeling, and it opens up the face where CA have even given the Spartan a beard (I would have liked a longer beard but ok).

But as I have said even before the poll was finished, he can't surprise anybody really.
It seems we are in agreement for a change, hey? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 28 2004,10:22)]It seems we are in agreement for a change, hey? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif
I actually think we are in agreement more than we care to admit.

I'm just annoyed with all those "What is this? Where is the cool helmet, FIX IT"

[hundurinn]

This is a great unit. I'm so excited about them, can't wait for them to slaughter the Romans for me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ May 28 2004,11:15)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 28 2004,10:22)]It seems we are in agreement for a change, hey? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif
I actually think we are in agreement more than we care to admit.

I'm just annoyed with all those "What is this? Where is the cool helmet, FIX IT"
I'm not that boring, am I? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

[Colovion]

What does sapping ability mean? I've seen it on a number of other units. Does it mean that they are actually sappers as well and can plant charges near enemy walls? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Yeah I'm guessing that's not the case, but besides sapping the strength of other units I couldn't think of a viable reason...

[Colovion]

Ugh... Nevermind, link here (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=19;t=18779)

[Mega Dux Bob]

Beyond elite maybe, but are they experts in hidding in the woods I ask? Then I'd be impressed

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ May 27 2004,14:48)]--------------
Anyone from CA -- since this unit does not use pikes, and thus fight in the Hoplite-phalanx formation, will they be using an overhand thrust above the top of their shields? If not, why won't it happen? From a lay-man's standpoint it seems like a simple animation variant no harder than special "flung by elephant" visuals.
----------------
To shingenmitch2:

Have you noticed that in the Adrianople TC video, the Auxilia use the overhand thrust for their spears? Even if they have the blade in the wrong direction? Does this mean that CA have incorporated the overhand thrust, or they gave it up after, at a later stage of the game? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

I like it ...

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 29 2004,14:39)]Have you noticed that in the Adrianople TC video, the Auxilia use the overhand thrust for their spears? Even if they have the blade in the wrong direction? Does this mean that CA have incorporated the overhand thrust, or they gave it up after, at a later stage of the game? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif
I can certainly understand the http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

When I saw the battle again I remembered that they indeed fought overhand, you can say I re-noticed it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
But if the Auxilia can do it, then we can hope the rest can too now. Would seem odd if they still can't.

[Leet Eriksson]

"Beyond Elite"is a pretty scary word if you ask me,its like every 1 of them is a jedi general,and you'll need to swamp them with more units to take them down.

[ThePeach]

has there EVER been a unit post that hasn't gotten someone riled up about how much it blows? it seems like no matter how amazing RTW looks, at least a couple people do nothing but stand around and bitch about how someone never really wore that shade of blue on their unis, or that the barbarians shouldn't have mustaches. if your looking for a bloody historical lecture go to a university. its A GAME, not the last frickin word on the various quirks of roman-era armies.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ May 29 2004,16:06)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 29 2004,14:39)]Have you noticed that in the Adrianople TC video, the Auxilia use the overhand thrust for their spears? Even if they have the blade in the wrong direction? Does this mean that CA have incorporated the overhand thrust, or they gave it up after, at a later stage of the game? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif
I can certainly understand the http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

When I saw the battle again I remembered that they indeed fought overhand, you can say I re-noticed it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
But if the Auxilia can do it, then we can hope the rest can too now. Would seem odd if they still can't.
But by the looks of it, the Spartan aren't using the overhand thrust... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sad.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (faisal @ May 29 2004,17:37)]"Beyond Elite"is a pretty scary word if you ask me,its like every 1 of them is a jedi general,and you'll need to swamp them with more units to take them down.
I think in fact it's a pretty stupid designation. Elite means something like ultimate. The top of the top.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 30 2004,01:02)]
Quote[/b] (faisal @ May 29 2004,17:37)]"Beyond Elite"is a pretty scary word if you ask me,its like every 1 of them is a jedi general,and you'll need to swamp them with more units to take them down.
I think in fact it's a pretty stupid designation. Elite means something like ultimate. The top of the top.
I think that's the point. It's supposed to be hyperbolic.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ May 29 2004,19:04)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ May 30 2004,01:02)]
Quote[/b] (faisal @ May 29 2004,17:37)]"Beyond Elite"is a pretty scary word if you ask me,its like every 1 of them is a jedi general,and you'll need to swamp them with more units to take them down.
I think in fact it's a pretty stupid designation. Elite means something like ultimate. The top of the top.
I think that's the point. It's supposed to be hyperbolic.
I hope it is not a game designation...

[hundurinn]

We can't forget that the Spartans Hoplites were among the best soldiers of their time and maybe all times. Spartan kid who had caught a fox would rather die than to scream and show a sign of pain if the fox bit him. Retreat wasn't an option in their mind.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (hundurinn @ May 30 2004,15:48)]We can't forget that the Spartans Hoplites were among the best soldiers of their time and maybe all times. Spartan kid who had caught a fox would rather die than to scream and show a sign of pain if the fox bit him. Retreat wasn't an option in their mind.
Most people here knows that. What I mean is: Elite should be the top of pro soldiers. If you have to differentiate their habilities, a simple Very hardy instead of Hardy should be enough.

[Basileus]

instead of beyond elite just Uber good eh? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[hundurinn]

Me and my friend who are die hard fans have been thinking about this and we got some conclusion don't know if it's good enough. Conclusion: They won't be affected by anything for example ambush, death of their general or loss off men. They will fight to the end won't drop their weapons and run that would make them Beyond Elite in my opinion. But hey i'm no expert http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[katank]

true.

does beyond elite mean they take 2 routing elite units or 4 routing non elite units to even perceive a single unit routed?

since 2 is required to inflict friendly routing penalty, that would dbe like 8 normal units all routing within sight of this unit to spook it.

In that case, the battle is more or less lost as roughly half your army is melting away right next to this one.

scary unroutable spears.

[bighairyman]

overall i like the unit, but the face, it just, i don't know, it look like a caveman's face, ape like, savagery, lots of hair and bone. Dunno, the Spartans could have looked like that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Mr Durian]

well I guess has some major modding to do. I want a corinth helemt and more detailed cloak. A mix of red, gold and black for eye candy. I'll use photoshop to show you what I mean.

[scooter_the_shooter]

ooooh show us i must know

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Mr Durian @ May 31 2004,00:03)]well I guess has some major modding to do. I want a corinth helemt and more detailed cloak. A mix of red, gold and black for eye candy. I'll use photoshop to show you what I mean.
You're going the wrong way. At least historically. Who said your idea of a Spartan Hoplite corresponds to reality?

Check this book by Osprey Publishing:

The Spartan Army (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1855326590/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-5904991-2965700#reader-link)

[shingenmitch2]

Hi Amyar
I've not seen Andrianople. I guess that gives me hope.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I did see Leuctra and as I recall the Spartans were underhanding it in that one (as were all Greek spear units -- none of which should of had pikes)
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

--------------------

BTW it seem like we get CA responses only when there is a snappy retort to our post or if we tweak noses enough http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ June 01 2004,09:18)]Hi Amyar
I've not seen Andrianople. I guess that gives me hope.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Let's hope so. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif



Quote[/b] ]I did see Leuctra and as I recall the Spartans were underhanding it in that one (as were all Greek spear units -- none of which should of had pikes)
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif
Correct. That was strange after seeing Adrianople. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

Could have CA decided to depict them like that, to reflect the increasing relliance on longer spears, over time, in the Greek City-states? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif Maybe I'm just talking nonsense... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking.gif



Quote[/b] ]BTW it seem like we get CA responses only when there is a snappy retort to our post or if we tweak noses enough http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
That figgers... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

[hundurinn]

Quote[/b] ]BTW it seem like we get CA responses only when there is a snappy retort to our post or if we tweak noses enough http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

So it seems

[Kommodus]

I'd like to add my voice to those who have said that this is a great unit. The helmet is good; the Corinthian helmets obviously look cool, but we have enough units wearing those already. This unit seems to portray the right "feel" for the Spartans - not flashy, just a lot of good, old-fashioned substance. It's probably only been touched up a little since Leuctra; however, this answers some of our previous doubts about what this unit would be like. I approve. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

[Mr Durian]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 01 2004,08:13)]
Quote[/b] (Mr Durian @ May 31 2004,00:03)]well I guess has some major modding to do. I want a corinth helemt and more detailed cloak. A mix of red, gold and black for eye candy. I'll use photoshop to show you what I mean.
You're going the wrong way. At least historically. Who said your idea of a Spartan Hoplite corresponds to reality?

Check this book by Osprey Publishing:

The Spartan Army (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1855326590/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-5904991-2965700#reader-link)
I have never implied my idea corresponds with reality. Read my previous posts. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Mr Durian @ June 02 2004,11:24)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 01 2004,08:13)]
Quote[/b] (Mr Durian @ May 31 2004,00:03)]well I guess has some major modding to do. I want a corinth helemt and more detailed cloak. A mix of red, gold and black for eye candy. I'll use photoshop to show you what I mean.
You're going the wrong way. At least historically. Who said your idea of a Spartan Hoplite corresponds to reality?

Check this book by Osprey Publishing:

The Spartan Army (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1855326590/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-5904991-2965700#reader-link)
I have never implied my idea corresponds with reality. Read my previous posts. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
I didn't implied that you did not know that. I implied that would be bad, because BAD ASS is not my idea of a good contribution to the units's overall look in the game... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif

[Mr Durian]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 02 2004,13:14)]
Quote[/b] (Mr Durian @ June 02 2004,11:24)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 01 2004,08:13)]
Quote[/b] (Mr Durian @ May 31 2004,00:03)]well I guess has some major modding to do. I want a corinth helemt and more detailed cloak. A mix of red, gold and black for eye candy. I'll use photoshop to show you what I mean.
You're going the wrong way. At least historically. Who said your idea of a Spartan Hoplite corresponds to reality?

Check this book by Osprey Publishing:

The Spartan Army (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1855326590/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-5904991-2965700#reader-link)
I have never implied my idea corresponds with reality. Read my previous posts. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
I didn't implied that you did not know that. I implied that would be bad, because BAD ASS is not my idea of a good contribution to the units's overall look in the game... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif
well we are conquering the entire europe arnt we in the game. IS that historically accurate if your playing as Greece or Persia? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Trax]

Quote[/b] ]well we are conquering the entire europe arnt we in the game. IS that historically accurate if your playing as Greece or Persia?

I´m not so sure that total conquest will be required to win in RTW.

[The Wizard]

Yes.

But remember, it was possible, very possible even, for many of the factions. It is just that some factions should have more trouble doing so than others (Parthians, with their extreme lack of siege-power, and Carthaginians, relying on mercenaries, vassals and allies to uphold its empire come to mind).



~Wiz

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Mr Durian @ June 02 2004,23:51)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 02 2004,13:14)]
Quote[/b] (Mr Durian @ June 02 2004,11:24)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 01 2004,08:13)]
Quote[/b] (Mr Durian @ May 31 2004,00:03)]well I guess has some major modding to do. I want a corinth helemt and more detailed cloak. A mix of red, gold and black for eye candy. I'll use photoshop to show you what I mean.
You're going the wrong way. At least historically. Who said your idea of a Spartan Hoplite corresponds to reality?

Check this book by Osprey Publishing:

The Spartan Army (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1855326590/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-5904991-2965700#reader-link)
I have never implied my idea corresponds with reality. Read my previous posts. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
I didn't implied that you did not know that. I implied that would be bad, because BAD ASS is not my idea of a good contribution to the units's overall look in the game... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif
well we are conquering the entire europe arnt we in the game. IS that historically accurate if your playing as Greece or Persia? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
The Romans did it... ...why not the others with the right continuos leadership? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

[biguth dickuth]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ May 28 2004,16:37)]P.S. bd: The guy under my avatar is a Sarmatian argaragans, a nobleman of the Sarmatian tribes, charging ahead with his kontos.



~Wiz
Thanks for the info
I was really wondering about that as i like the drawing. I must admit, though, that i was expecting a sarmatian nobleman to be more...armoured

[scooter_the_shooter]

well i will take gameplay over historical acuracy ususally unless its redicoulous so i will have to mod it so it has a cornithian helmet and that sort of things

[The Wizard]

So you are implying that the pylos helmet is historically innacurate ...?



~Wiz

[Rosacrux]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ June 07 2004,08:41)]So you are implying that the pylos helmet is historically innacurate ...?



~Wiz
Nah, he's implying that it ain't "cool" enough http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[scooter_the_shooter]

yep i am making them look like they did back in the time of the persian wars

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (ceasar010 @ June 07 2004,09:53)]yep i am making them look like they did back in the time of the persian wars
Then they'll look just like another Hoplite... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (ceasar010 @ June 07 2004,15:53)]yep i am making them look like they did back in the time of the persian wars
Hence they are historically incorrect; already in the Persian wars the Spartans were believed to fight with little or no armor, as well as the pylos helmet.



~Wiz

[scooter_the_shooter]

edit hit the reply button to much or somthing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif

[scooter_the_shooter]

thats not what i was told a thermopaley they did have heavy armor breast plates. i will have a pic later


got it pretty cool eh.

http://history.smsu.edu/jchuchi....rmy.htm (http://history.smsu.edu/jchuchiak/HST%20101--Lecture%204--Greek%20Warfare%20and%20Army.htm)

thats how i want them

[shingenmitch2]

Heh,

Yah that is the mental image most conjure up when they think of Spartans.

But it is the Spartans of 300 years earlier. I see that as a perfect expansion pack. "The Greek-Persian & Peloponesian Wars TW" and then CA could get in it's New Kingdom Egyptians in the "Bronze Age warfare expansion pack" featuring NK Egypt, Caananites, Assyrians, Hittites, Mittani, Achaean Greece, Trojans, etc.

------------


BTW, the captions on that page are really bad/ wrong/ inaccurate. I hope he doesn't use that page to teach from.

[scooter_the_shooter]

good idea that would be a great expansion until then i can live with these ugly spartans in a dress http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif or better yet i will make a hellenic mod i can do some moddin but not alot but i am sure people can help me

[The Wizard]

The pictures most at the top are wrong, but are what the casual person who thinks of Spartans thinks of.

The picture below those isn't even a Spartan; it's a Macedonian pezhetairos...



~Wiz

[scooter_the_shooter]

darn i should have known that the shield has an a instead of a 2 sided triangle i feel dumb now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (ceasar010 @ June 09 2004,14:52)]darn i should have known that the shield has an a instead of a 2 sided triangle i feel dumb now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif
Happens all the time with the rest of us. That is why it is good to discuss History in the forums, because there is always someone that knows a lot about determined parts and periods of History. Our knowledge keeps increasing...

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 09 2004,20:58)]
Quote[/b] (ceasar010 @ June 09 2004,14:52)]darn i should have known that the shield has an a instead of a 2 sided triangle i feel dumb now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif
Happens all the time with the rest of us. That is why it is good to discuss History in the forums, because there is always someone that knows a lot about determined parts and periods of History. Our knowledge keeps increasing...
Yes indeed, I'd guess my knowledge of history, especially Persia, has tripled since I joined this forum http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif



~Wiz

[Rosacrux]

Hmm... another little lecture here:

The topmost two pictures are quite correct as for the 5th century BC Spartan hoplite - the one at the right with the three guys is ofcourse quite artistical but not innacurate, no.

The typical Spartan hoplite of the Persian wars era and up to the mid-5th century, was wearing a linen (linothorax) or metallic cuirass (myothes thorax) greaves, corinthian helmet and a red cloack. By the time of the Peloponnesian war most Spartan hoplites used lighter linen thorax, sometimes reinforced with metal stripes. Some even abandoned the greaves and wore no thorax at all, just a short red cloak and nothing else. But all wore the pilos helmet - the ugly, uncool, cup-shaped one.

Of course, the 3rd century Spartan hoplite - the period depicted in RTW - is non-existent: the Spartan, as all Greeks, had adopted the Macedonian phalanx (some Greeks, like the Aetolian, were fighting in a more Thracian-like way in that era, heavy on skirmishers and javelineers and medium infantry).

P.S. the rest of the representations and captions on that page vary from completely silly and/or romanticized to almost-but-not-quite fairly accurate.

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ June 10 2004,08:54)]Of course, the 3rd century Spartan hoplite - the period depicted in RTW - is non-existent: the Spartan, as all Greeks, had adopted the Macedonian phalanx (some Greeks, like the Aetolian, were fighting in a more Thracian-like way in that era, heavy on skirmishers and javelineers and medium infantry).
3rd century is a bit of a broad term when we say they had adopted the pike. It was indeed in the 3rd century they did adopt it, but it was in the latter part, AFAIK 220BC. Thus the 'ugly' hoplite is viable enough for the beginning of the game.