View Full Version : Loyalty Questions & More...
Hoping someone with a little more experience with MTW will be able to answer a few questions for me regarding loyalty.
I played STW, but I'm having trouble even recalling the effect of loyalty in it for some reason (though with my memory as it's been the last year or so, that's not surprising ;)).
Anyway, the first of my questions is, what effects loyalty? Obviously things like taxes, overtaking a province, religion, etc. all play a part, but what I'm wondering is about how those things effect it and by how much. For instance, I'm fairly certain sudden shifts in tax rates (ie. going from Very Low to High) have a detrimental effect to loyalty, but after looking through the manual, I don't see any mention of it :( And then there's mention of things like the distance a province is from your leader having a detrimental effect on loyalty, but I'll be damned if I can find any hard information explaining the effect/relationship.
So specifically:
1. Does the distance of a province from your leader have an effect on loyalty? What about princes?
2. Does war have some kind of effect on loyalty? Is it related to invading, being invaded, losing conflicts, winning conflicts? Or is it simply war itself?
3. What exactly is the relationship between religion and loyalty? Obviously if your leader is muslim, but a conquered province is predominantly christian, there's going to be some pissed off subjects, but beyond that, can anyone shed some light on details? Is it as simple as having a +50% majority within the province? And what does that mean then? Will there be no unrest due to it, or is it a gradient scale, and if so, what are the specifics?
4. At what point does a garrison of units stop having a positive effect on loyalty? I've noticed quite often that even though I have nearly 1000 men in a province with Very Low taxes and 98% the same religion as my leader, the loyalty will still drop. What's going on here?
5. I'm almost certain there's a bug with loyalty that seems to get bigger the longer you play. I'll try to supply screenshots, but basically what happens is, as I continue to play, there appears to be a consistant drop in loyalty with no idea as to what's causing it. Then, if I quicksave and then reload, provinces' loyalty returns to what I assume is where it should be. Perfect example, (and the biggest offender) is Portugal. I know that Portugal is reknowned for being highly rebellious, but this still doesn't explain how before I save, the loyalty will show 84%, then after reloading and nothing else changing, it becomes 96%. Is this a known issue and is there a workaround or fix aside from constantly quickloading?
6. Aside from taxes, units, a mosque/church, and maybe even priests/imams/religious units to a certain extent due to religion, what else can effect (positively or negatively) loyalty in a province? And what other buildings/upgrades will effect loyalty?
And now, some more generic questions:
1. How much do various religious units (which preach) effect religion in a province? Is there a larger effect with multiple units and if so, is there some kind of cap or drop off after X point? Is there some relationship to the majority belief system ala some kind of bell curve, in that the closer you get to 100%, the time to convert that last few percent takes X times longer?
2. What effect does zeal have? I honestly have no clue as to what this effects or influences. I assume it's somehow related to religion and loyalty, but in what way and what does it do? Is it better to have more or less zeal?
3. Is there some way to keep foreign emissaries and religious units out of your borders aside from leaving an assassin in every single province? I'm not referring to spies or enemy assassins, as they can be hamstrung with border forts, just emissaries and religious units.
4. Is there some way to sort the various lists like the income/loyalty display? It's fine as it is in the early game when you only have a dozen or so provinces, but once you hit about 50 or 60, it makes using it daunting to the point of being almost useless.
I know I had more questions, but I'm drawing a blank now :D
Anyway, any help would be muchly appreciated
- Z
I look at this as the loyalty of Generals, and the Happiness of provinces.
Quote[/b] ]1. Does the distance of a province from your leader have an effect on loyalty? What about princes?
The distance of the King does impact loyalty, but the location of heirs does not seem to do much. Having a clear naval conncetion shortens the distance.
Quote[/b] ]2. Does war have some kind of effect on loyalty? Is it related to invading, being invaded, losing conflicts, winning conflicts? Or is it simply war itself?
Losing battles and provinces seems to have an effect on the loyalty of your Generals. The Kings Influence seems to have a bearing on this as well, and losing Crusades or breaking alliances reduces Influence.
Quote[/b] ]3. What exactly is the relationship between religion and loyalty? Obviously if your leader is muslim, but a conquered province is predominantly christian, there's going to be some pissed off subjects, but beyond that, can anyone shed some light on details? Is it as simple as having a +50% majority within the province? And what does that mean then? Will there be no unrest due to it, or is it a gradient scale, and if so, what are the specifics?
You pretty much have it right. It seems to be a gradient, but once the pop is predominantly your religion the unrest seems to drop. Build churches and place religious agents there. When you first capture a province that is mostly folks belonging to a different religion, make sure to keep some extra troops there the first few turns.
Quote[/b] ]4. At what point does a garrison of units stop having a positive effect on loyalty? I've noticed quite often that even though I have nearly 1000 men in a province with Very Low taxes and 98% the same religion as my leader, the loyalty will still drop. What's going on here?
Is the King cut off from this province? Does the Governor have a nasty Vice that makes the people hate him?
Quote[/b] ]5. I'm almost certain there's a bug with loyalty that seems to get bigger the longer you play. I'll try to supply screenshots, but basically what happens is, as I continue to play, there appears to be a consistant drop in loyalty with no idea as to what's causing it. Then, if I quicksave and then reload, provinces' loyalty returns to what I assume is where it should be. Perfect example, (and the biggest offender) is Portugal. I know that Portugal is reknowned for being highly rebellious, but this still doesn't explain how before I save, the loyalty will show 84%, then after reloading and nothing else changing, it becomes 96%. Is this a known issue and is there a workaround or fix aside from constantly quickloading?
Yep, towards the end of the game there will be lots more rebellions and problems. Its programmed that way to make the end game more interesting.
Quote[/b] ]6. Aside from taxes, units, a mosque/church, and maybe even priests/imams/religious units to a certain extent due to religion, what else can effect (positively or negatively) loyalty in a province? And what other buildings/upgrades will effect loyalty?
There was a good thread on this, but I can't find it. The Brothels and Inns, Border Forts, and larger castles seem to help. The College of Surgeons is a big help, +4 I think.
Keep spies in each province, two in the troublesomes ones. There's more ideas in the links at the bottom.
And now, some more generic questions:
Quote[/b] ]1. How much do various religious units (which preach) effect religion in a province? Is there a larger effect with multiple units and if so, is there some kind of cap or drop off after X point? Is there some relationship to the majority belief system ala some kind of bell curve, in that the closer you get to 100%, the time to convert that last few percent takes X times longer?
Religious agents improve the Zeal of those members of thier faith. I don't know about the bell curve. Its the churches and mosques that help.
Quote[/b] ]2. What effect does zeal have? I honestly have no clue as to what this effects or influences. I assume it's somehow related to religion and loyalty, but in what way and what does it do? Is it better to have more or less zeal?
There is a relationship between the Zeal of the popualtion and the Guv - Zealots prefer a zealous Guv. High Zeal will cause more recruitment into passing Crusades.
Quote[/b] ]3. Is there some way to keep foreign emissaries and religious units out of your borders aside from leaving an assassin in every single province? I'm not referring to spies or enemy assassins, as they can be hamstrung with border forts, just emissaries and religious units.
Assassinate, assassinate, assassinate.
Quote[/b] ]4. Is there some way to sort the various lists like the income/loyalty display? It's fine as it is in the early game when you only have a dozen or so provinces, but once you hit about 50 or 60, it makes using it daunting to the point of being almost useless.
Click on the column heading and the lists will sort.
Here's a thread with some info on what to do to keep things happy.
Province Loyalty thread (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=13457)
and another good one
Goofballs Happy Post (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=14989;hl=buildings)
Oh, and Welcome to the Org Zapaan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Quote[/b] (ichi @ May 28 2004,12:59)]I look at this as the loyalty of Generals, and the Happiness of provinces.
Quote[/b] ]1. Does the distance of a province from your leader have an effect on loyalty? What about princes?
The distance of the King does impact loyalty, but the location of heirs does not seem to do much. Having a clear naval conncetion shortens the distance.
Quote[/b] ]2. Does war have some kind of effect on loyalty? Is it related to invading, being invaded, losing conflicts, winning conflicts? Or is it simply war itself?
Losing battles and provinces seems to have an effect on the loyalty of your Generals. The Kings Influence seems to have a bearing on this as well, and losing Crusades or breaking alliances reduces Influence.
Quote[/b] ]3. What exactly is the relationship between religion and loyalty? Obviously if your leader is muslim, but a conquered province is predominantly christian, there's going to be some pissed off subjects, but beyond that, can anyone shed some light on details? Is it as simple as having a +50% majority within the province? And what does that mean then? Will there be no unrest due to it, or is it a gradient scale, and if so, what are the specifics?
You pretty much have it right. It seems to be a gradient, but once the pop is predominantly your religion the unrest seems to drop. Build churches and place religious agents there. When you first capture a province that is mostly folks belonging to a different religion, make sure to keep some extra troops there the first few turns.
Quote[/b] ]4. At what point does a garrison of units stop having a positive effect on loyalty? I've noticed quite often that even though I have nearly 1000 men in a province with Very Low taxes and 98% the same religion as my leader, the loyalty will still drop. What's going on here?
Is the King cut off from this province? Does the Governor have a nasty Vice that makes the people hate him?
Quote[/b] ]5. I'm almost certain there's a bug with loyalty that seems to get bigger the longer you play. I'll try to supply screenshots, but basically what happens is, as I continue to play, there appears to be a consistant drop in loyalty with no idea as to what's causing it. Then, if I quicksave and then reload, provinces' loyalty returns to what I assume is where it should be. Perfect example, (and the biggest offender) is Portugal. I know that Portugal is reknowned for being highly rebellious, but this still doesn't explain how before I save, the loyalty will show 84%, then after reloading and nothing else changing, it becomes 96%. Is this a known issue and is there a workaround or fix aside from constantly quickloading?
Yep, towards the end of the game there will be lots more rebellions and problems. Its programmed that way to make the end game more interesting.
Quote[/b] ]6. Aside from taxes, units, a mosque/church, and maybe even priests/imams/religious units to a certain extent due to religion, what else can effect (positively or negatively) loyalty in a province? And what other buildings/upgrades will effect loyalty?
And now, some more generic questions:
Quote[/b] ]1. How much do various religious units (which preach) effect religion in a province? Is there a larger effect with multiple units and if so, is there some kind of cap or drop off after X point? Is there some relationship to the majority belief system ala some kind of bell curve, in that the closer you get to 100%, the time to convert that last few percent takes X times longer?
Religious agents improve the Zeal of those members of thier faith. I don't know about the bell curve. Its the churches and mosques that help.
Quote[/b] ]2. What effect does zeal have? I honestly have no clue as to what this effects or influences. I assume it's somehow related to religion and loyalty, but in what way and what does it do? Is it better to have more or less zeal?
There is a relationship between the Zeal of the popualtion and the Guv - Zealots prefer a zealous Guv. High Zeal will cause more recruitment into passing Crusades.
Quote[/b] ]3. Is there some way to keep foreign emissaries and religious units out of your borders aside from leaving an assassin in every single province? I'm not referring to spies or enemy assassins, as they can be hamstrung with border forts, just emissaries and religious units.
Assassinate, assassinate, assassinate.
Quote[/b] ]4. Is there some way to sort the various lists like the income/loyalty display? It's fine as it is in the early game when you only have a dozen or so provinces, but once you hit about 50 or 60, it makes using it daunting to the point of being almost useless.
Click on the column heading and the lists will sort.
Here's a thread with some info on what to do to keep things happy.
Province Loyalty thread (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=13457)
and another good one
Goofballs Happy Post (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=14989;hl=buildings)
Oh, and Welcome to the Org Zapaan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Thanks much Ichi
Quote[/b] ]
Is the King cut off from this province? Does the Governor have a nasty Vice that makes the people hate him?
He's not cut off, but I wasn't aware that governor's vices could have that kind of effect. I'll have to check. What would happen if I stripped him of his titles? I assume he'd become less loyal for a time?
Quote[/b] ]
Yep, towards the end of the game there will be lots more rebellions and problems. Its programmed that way to make the end game more interesting.
I can understand that if not agree with it, but it still doesn't explain why the loyalty would change once I reload. It should stay the same once I reload, shouldn't it?
Quote[/b] ]
There is a relationship between the Zeal of the popualtion and the Guv - Zealots prefer a zealous Guv. High Zeal will cause more recruitment into passing Crusades.
Is that the only purpose for zeal? For crusades/jihads? If the governor has a high zeal, is there some side effect/benefit?
Quote[/b] ]
Assassinate, assassinate, assassinate.
Sigh, I suspected as much. It's not that big a deal, it's just that they tend to slow turns down as you get further along the game approaching a good 2 or 3 minutes each turn. Ah well.
Oh speaking of assassins, and any agent for that matter, what's the highest they can achieve in ability? I've only ever managed to get one up to 3 valour.
Quote[/b] ]
Click on the column heading and the lists will sort.
Ok, is there some trick to it then? Because that's the first thing I tried, but nothing happens. It's like it's not clickable.
Thanks again
- Z
Doh Guess I can't edit my own posts. Sorry for the huge quote ;)
- Z
Quote[/b] (Zapaan @ May 28 2004,20:23)]
Quote[/b] ]Is the King cut off from this province? Does the Governor have a nasty Vice that makes the people hate him?
He's not cut off, but I wasn't aware that governor's vices could have that kind of effect. I'll have to check. What would happen if I stripped him of his titles? I assume he'd become less loyal for a time?
The governor loses some loyalty, yes. I believe this drop is permanent, but since I find that loyalty if very fluid I don't bother about it much. Higher influence or being in the same stack as the King improves loyalty.
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]Yep, towards the end of the game there will be lots more rebellions and problems. Its programmed that way to make the end game more interesting.
I can understand that if not agree with it, but it still doesn't explain why the loyalty would change once I reload. It should stay the same once I reload, shouldn't it?
I really don't know. Are you sure nothing changed if you reload? For example, you mover your king closer or a unit of peasants was created? There was an issue with loyalty, I believe, but that was in unpatched MTW without VI.
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]There is a relationship between the Zeal of the popualtion and the Guv - Zealots prefer a zealous Guv. High Zeal will cause more recruitment into passing Crusades.
Is that the only purpose for zeal? For crusades/jihads? If the governor has a high zeal, is there some side effect/benefit?
Like Ichi said, zeal has two functions:
1) it improves the recruitment for crusades / jihads.
2) high zeal provinces don't like low piety governors.
Piety has another function: it protects your generals from inquisitors.
Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]Assassinate, assassinate, assassinate.
Sigh, I suspected as much. It's not that big a deal, it's just that they tend to slow turns down as you get further along the game approaching a good 2 or 3 minutes each turn. Ah well.
Oh speaking of assassins, and any agent for that matter, what's the highest they can achieve in ability? I've only ever managed to get one up to 3 valour.
Two or three minutes? You are a fast player I take five minutes for a turn, double checking everything At that doesn't include the battles.
As for assassins, there are several ways of improving their effectiveness:
1) Upgrading your taverns. This can give up to valour 3.
2) Assassins built in Syria will get +2 valour, and the game doesn't tell you this But this works in VI only.
3) The English have a hero assassin with 4 valour. Guy of Grisbourne. The first assassin you recruit as the English after 1206 will be Guy. If you recruit him in Syria with a Rookery, you will get a 9 star assassin (4+3+2)
Other ways to increase their success rate is to use them better: select their targets, go after the vulnerable ones, use them in swarms, and beware that the computer knows when you target their units and will often move them to safety (to a province with border forts).
A tactic I learned from Dough-Tompson is to let the assassins target each other. Survival of the fittest, and you can get 2 star assassins with a bit of work.
I hope this helps.
Quote[/b] ]
The governor loses some loyalty, yes. I believe this drop is permanent, but since I find that loyalty if very fluid I don't bother about it much. Higher influence or being in the same stack as the King improves loyalty.
It's funny, now that I think about it, I can't even recall a general who wasn't at least 8 or 9 loyalty (excepting recent bribes).
Quote[/b] ]
really don't know. Are you sure nothing changed if you reload? For example, you mover your king closer or a unit of peasants was created? There was an issue with loyalty, I believe, but that was in unpatched MTW without VI.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. Check loyalty of a province, quicksave, quickload, check loyalty again. Absolutely nothing is touched, but the loyalty is different. It took a few times of it happening for me to finally notice it as I was thinking I MUST have changed something the first couple of times it happened. FWIW, I'm using v1.1, but I'm certain it's a bug of some kind. At the least it's an update/display latency or something like that, as I notice the income/loyalty display is almost never accurate as it appears to not update when you open it, but takes the data from (I assume) the beginning of the turn before applying changes for the year. It's only until you actually check the province manually that it updates, but only that province, not any others.
Quote[/b] ]
Two or three minutes? You are a fast player I take five minutes for a turn, double checking everything At that doesn't include the battles.
I was talking about the wait between hitting End turn and getting control back to start my next turn. By the latter half of the game, I'm spending somewhere around 20-40 minutes per turn :)
As for the assassins, I generally don't like using exploits, especially in a game where for the most part, it's completely fair (ie. the AI isn't given ridiculous cheats to give the player a challenge). But thanks for the info on the English and Syria, I'll have to remember that if I ever play the English.
I'm curious though, I've been noticing that in my latest game, assassins are getting through my border forts A LOT, and it's only until after the assassination are they caught (at least I assume it's the same assassin). I take it experience plays a part in catching them with border forts? What are the chances involved?
- Z
as for loyalty, I neve rhave much problems with it either as my influence is typically through the roof with successful warfare.
loyalty seems around 20-30% higher typically around 26 if you save and load game.
thus, it appears artificially higher.
be sure to have that much headroom to avoid rebellions and/or reemergences if playing the turn you reloaded.
once that turn is over, everything is back to normal.
as for assasins and border forts, typicall the assasins need about v3 to reliably get through border forts without problems.
I would recommend you not let your assasins chase across borders if not at least v3.
if catholic, then take syria by all means as it helps secure your crusader states and v5 assasins out of gates is hard to resist.
note: I believe guy of gisbourne is 5* and for heros, all stats are determined so he wouldn't be 9* but only 5* no matter where you train him.
Are you sure about that Katank? The reason I ask is because if I hit end turn before reloading without changing anything, provinces will revolt quite often, whereas if I reload first, then hit end turn, they never revolt (assuming they don't fall under 100% of course). Regardless, it needs to be fixed :)
- Z
I always find the reloaded games to show the loyalty as higher than playing straight through.
may be the other way for you
either way, a discrepancy is definitely there.
a key to show green and red etc. based on 120 loyalty would be nice too as I need to know which provinces have a chance of reemergences after a while into the game.
Ard-Ri McCullaugh
06-01-2004, 03:06
Is it just me, or do the following provinces tend to be more rebellious than others:
Scotland
Portugal
Lithuania
Livonia
Finland
Serbia
Bulgaria
Switzerland
Naples(if Byzantines in Early Age)
and in my games, most Steppe provinces as well
add Prussia and Ireland to the list
ichi
motorhead
06-01-2004, 10:50
Rebellious ratings (0 = lowest, 4 = highest) from the game config files:
Ireland = 1
Khazar = 1
Lithuania = 3
Livonia = 4
Pomerania = 1
Portugal = 4
Prussia = 2
Scotland = 2
Serbia = 1
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