Repeating Cannae

[Hetman]

The victory at Cannae was 'military Holy Grail' many commanders tried to repeat this, but only some succeded.

How many 'Cannaes' do You know ?

The battle should fit this description.
Victorious army should be much smaller - 2, 3 times smaller than the defeated one.
The victory should be achieved by outflanking.
The casualities of the victorious army should be minimal, whereas the larger, defeated forces should be annihilated ( more than 50 % eliminated - killed, wounded or captured).

I have only one proposal for now - the battle at Kircholm
( 1605)in present Latvia.

Polish army - 3500-4000 men ( 3000 cavalry, 1000 infantry)
vs 11 000 - 14 000 Swedish forces ( at least 8000 of infantry).
The result - Swedish army lost 2300 - 8500 dead ( Swedish sources) or 6000 dead ( Polish sources); Polish army 150-250 dead and about 400 -500 wounded).

Regards Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Kalle]

Well since you bring up a swedish defeat ill bring up a swedish victory.

Narva in the year 1700 - about 40000 russians against about 10000 swedes - numbers vary in the sources but somewhere around these numbers and proportions is correct.

Russians in a fortified camp laying siege to the swedish fortress/town of Narva. Charles the XII leading his army first across the baltic and then on a 4 days "speed march" with no rest and scarce food and winterweather to try and rescue the town.

Without getting into the actual combat the result was;

About 1000 dead swedes
about 15000 dead russians
12.000 russians taken as prisoners (they were released after the battle since the swedes didnt have the manpower or the supplies to take care of them)

These numbers may also vary in diffrent sources but all agree that it was a stunning victory for the Swedes. The source i used for this info;

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaget_vid_Narva

Kalle

[Kalle]

Oh, gimme a few days and ill try find some Swedish-Polish battle too :)

Kalle

ps.

dont forget i like Poland :)

[bighairyman]

most Mongol conquest battles, the famous Mongolian general Subatia(or something like that) invaded Russia with 20,000 men in winter http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif , and won several battles against vastly numerally superior armies and conquered vast lands. It wasn't Cannae, but it was astounding.

[The Wizard]

Well, almost every single battle the Mongols fought.



~Wiz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Beirut]

I submit the battle of Agincourt.

It could be said that the forest that flanked the battle ground and prevented a flanking manuevers by the French, was itself a flanking manuever of sorts.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif What?

The English took full advantage of the flanks of the battlefield, using lightly armed, fast troops to slaughter the armour clad knights who wandered in the forest to escape the crush of the their own backlogged forces.

With a bit of artistic license, it works.

[Rosacrux]

The great offensive of the Nazis in USSR. Brilliant opening gambit, the two flanks of the gigantic formation pulling a Cannae to the poor Red Army, while the central front was executing its own offensive... brilliant, brilliant. Millions of Soviet soldiers captured, the whole front collapsed in a matter of days, tons and tons of material, provisions, armament, weapons, ammunition left behind... extremely well executed.

A gigantic and disproportional Cannae, nevertheless. But still a manouvre a-la-Cannae.

BTW is it me or all the generals of all ages are quite obsessed with repeating Hannibals stratagem at Cannae?

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (Kalle @ May 31 2004,06:24)]Oh, gimme a few days and ill try find some Swedish-Polish battle too :)

Kalle

ps.

dont forget i like Poland :)
Good luck, but I don't expect You'll find any 'Cannae'.

hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] (Hetman @ Juni 02 2004,03:04)]
Citera[/b] (Kalle @ May 31 2004,06:24)]Oh, gimme a few days and ill try find some Swedish-Polish battle too :)

Kalle

ps.

dont forget i like Poland :)
Good luck, but I don't expect You'll find any 'Cannae'.

hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Yes, your troops ran away too much http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

[Kalle]

Remembered another one.

Battle of Fraustadt 1706 (located in Poland)

Swedes numbering 9000-10000 men under command of field marshal Carl Gustaf Rehnshiöld (the planner of Narva in post above)

Sachsen/Russia numbering 18000-20000 under command of some Shulenburg dude if i remember correctly.

Result thanks to masterful tactic manouvers;

Less then 500 dead Swedes.

Total destruction of Sachsen/Russia forces. As if the battle itself wasnt cruel enough all russian prisoners were massacred by the swedes (the sachsen prisoners wasnt).

Since Sachsen/Poland during this time was united through their ruler - king of Poland/kurfürst of Sachsen and sweden at war with both of them and the battle happening in Poland i could with some good will claim this as a win vs Poland but i wont since i dont think any real Polish forces were in the battle so ill have to be back.

Kalle

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (Ironside @ June 02 2004,10:54)]
Quote[/b] (Hetman @ Juni 02 2004,03:04)]
Quote[/b] (Kalle @ May 31 2004,06:24)]Oh, gimme a few days and ill try find some Swedish-Polish battle too :)

Kalle

ps.

dont forget i like Poland :)
Good luck, but I don't expect You'll find any 'Cannae'.

hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Yes, your troops ran away too much http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .
Ironside

Yes, we've learnt from the best - Gustavus Adolphus for example
( Trzciana 1629).

Regards Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (Kalle @ June 02 2004,12:11)]Remembered another one.

Battle of Fraustadt 1706 (located in Poland)

Swedes numbering 9000-10000 men under command of field marshal Carl Gustaf Rehnshiöld (the planner of Narva in post above)

Sachsen/Russia numbering 18000-20000 under command of some Shulenburg dude if i remember correctly.

Result thanks to masterful tactic manouvers;

Less then 500 dead Swedes.

Total destruction of Sachsen/Russia forces. As if the battle itself wasnt cruel enough all russian prisoners were massacred by the swedes (the sachsen prisoners wasnt).

Since Sachsen/Poland during this time was united through their ruler - king of Poland/kurfürst of Sachsen and sweden at war with both of them and the battle happening in Poland i could with some good will claim this as a win vs Poland but i wont since i dont think any real Polish forces were in the battle so ill have to be back.

Kalle
The army couldn't be called Polish - I don't think more than 10% were Polish ( at least 60 % should be).

Yes the elector of Sachsen was a Polish king, but highly unpopular ( there was a civil war against him at that time) - honestly he was an idiot elected to be the king of Poland only because of Tzar Peter's support - the legal king was a French duke.

And Fraustadt ( Wschowa) was ( and is) in Poland at that time, it was a border city though.

Regards Hetman

BTW - check XVI-XVII mod in Engineers Guld ( especially page 7 - unit list) - maybe You'll have something to add.

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] ]In June 1514 the Muscovites returned and on this occasion the slow response of Polish-Lithuanian forces led to the surrender of Smolensk. The Polish-Lithuanian army, of over 30,000 troops, led by Ostrogski, arrived and on the 8th September crushed the 80,000 strong Muscovite army at Orsza (8 September 1514). However this spectacular victory was not fully exploited and Smolensk could not be retaken.

Another nice action by the Polish-Lithuanian forces... Now I understand why Russia could not expand into eastern Europe as quickly...



~Wiz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ June 04 2004,04:29)]
Quote[/b] ]In June 1514 the Muscovites returned and on this occasion the slow response of Polish-Lithuanian forces led to the surrender of Smolensk. The Polish-Lithuanian army, of over 30,000 troops, led by Ostrogski, arrived and on the 8th September crushed the 80,000 strong Muscovite army at Orsza (8 September 1514). However this spectacular victory was not fully exploited and Smolensk could not be retaken.

Another nice action by the Polish-Lithuanian forces... Now I understand why Russia could not expand into eastern Europe as quickly...



~Wiz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Wizard

Thanks for reminding the battle at Orsha, I think it really was another Cannae.
BTW - it was rather Lithuanian - Polish than Polish-Lithuanian army, although Poles were much better equipped and used as a reserve force - they suprised Russian 'ambush' force and caused general retreat of Tzar's army.
The anniversary is national holiday of Belorussia ( for them it was also their victory, and they are right I think) - but not for Lukashenko regime, of course.



Two more proposals.

The battle at Danzig in 1577.

the Rebels - 3 100 Lancknechts, 400 Reiters, 400 town militia horsemen and 6000 - 8000 Danzig militia.

the Royal Polish army - ( commander Zborowski) - 1 350 cavalry, 1 050 infantry.

the result - The Rebels lost 4,420 dead and about 5,000 taken prisoner Polish losses were 188 of these 58 dead.


Second.

Big, strategical Cannae performed by Polish Commonwealth
( Rzeczpospolita) army against Russia in years 1579 - 81, in present Livonia and northern Russia.

At that time Russia ruled by Ivan the Terrible tried to expand to Baltic Sea and possibly to conquer as much of Lithuania as possible.
They captured most of Livonia ( except Riga and Estonia).

Under newly elected Transylvanian duke Stephen Bathory and Polish Commonwealth king the Polish army responded.
In three campaigns Russian army was annihilated ( they lost about 300 000 - 400 000 soldiers, Poles 30 000) and the expansion of Russia was stopped for almost 100 years.
During the war Tzar Ivan the Terrible delved into ultimate madness, but didn't find anything and died which started a period of internal strife in Russia which lasted for about 30 years.

Regards Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif