View Full Version : New Patch Beta 1.03
Before most download it and try it out........Give us an idea of what its changed etc?
I know u said it has built in info to read.But maybe a good idea to maybe post all info in here as well http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Will help others before they even download to understand what its all about.And if its what they want.
1 question or maybe 2.Is it for MP or SP or BOTH?
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/markuk/t.gif/Fast.gif
Grey Wolves (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl/)
FastCub
Wavesword
06-06-2002, 05:23
Dammit we'd just about turned the game into a tank rush, and the goalposts get moved again. I think it's the the HC and Naginata's turn to be 'super units'.
theforce
06-06-2002, 05:26
I am not so excited about the fact that fans make patches for the game. They actually make the game as they want it like changes that favour their playing style, change things they don't like. I just hope they JUST solve the ashi problem by making them more expensive. Nothing else!!!
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I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!
[This message has been edited by theforce (edited 06-05-2002).]
Summary of the major changes in v1.03 relative to v1.02:
1) The rate of kills in hand-to-hand combat is slower giving more time to maneuver free units for flanking attacks and making units less likely to rout early.
2) Muskets kill less per volley, have longer reload, have a higher ratio of friendly kills, have less ammo (15), have lower hand-to-hand combat ability and more armor. It's now possible to rush muskets with a higher chance of success.
3) Arqs have less ammo (10), a slower reload but fire more powerful shots.
4) Yari ashigaru have lower morale and lower combat ability which means they will loose to every other infantry type, but with moderate upgrades will still be useful for protecting guns from cav and for chasing routed units with their high foot speed.
5) Samurai archers and cavalry archers use the same bow to allow Mongol light cavalry to have a bow with different characteristics. Samurai archers have more (36) ammo and less hand-to-hand combat ability while cavalry archers have less (18) ammo and less armor so that they remain inferior to foot archers in ranged combat.
6) Warrior monks have slightly better hand-to-hand combat, higher morale and less armor which brings them back as a threat worthy of their 550 koku cost with archers being their mortal enemy.
7) Naginata slightly improved hand-to-hand combat and morale to balance the improvement to warrior monks, although, they will still loose to warrior monk when in engage-at-will.
8) Cavalry charge increased to keep it's balance relative to warrior monk and naginata without increasing it's strength relative to yari infantry.
9) Turning speed of yari samurai, yari ashigaru and naginata slowed down to represent clumsy weapon and heavy armor. Affects combat ability.
10) Turning speed of yari cavalry, naginata cavalry and heavy cavalry increased to improve maneuverability. Affects combat ability.
11) Kensai armor lowered to zero since ranged units have such a difficult time hitting a single man. Run and charge speed raised.
12) Battlefield Ninja stars slightly improved to increase killing rate, run and charge speed increased.
13) Mongol heavy cavaly restored to 60 men, slowed down to Japanese heavy cavalry speeds, slightly less morale, less hand-to-hand combat power, closer spacing between men and turning speed decreased.
14) Mongol light cavalry restored to 60 men, more (50) arrows of less power but higher accuracy, faster reload, less armor, closer spacing between men and turning speed
decreased.
15) Korean Skirmisher has less ammo, less range and less armor.
16) Korean Spearman has slightly less hand-to-hand combat ability and less armor.
17) Korean Guardsman has less armor.
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 06-05-2002).]
The v1.03 is intended for online multiplayer and would need adjustments for use in the single player campaign. This v1.03 stat was tested by verteran players with differing styles of play and met with their approval. It provides an opportunity to sucessfully use more varied tactics in the online game, and actually makes the game easier and more intuitive to play. It does play substantially diffent from v1.02, and can be easily swapped in or out.
MizuYuuki ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 06-06-2002).]
Sounds good
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Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your toops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical......Sun Tzu the Art of War
I've played a couple of games against the makers. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Apart from the usual utter trashing I got ( http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif) the patch seems very good...my guns did absolutely not decide the battle and monks seem pretty good again. Plus more time for flanking/rearing gives skill its righteous place as the deciding and determinant factor of who wins the battle, not the army or missiles. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
I tested it 2 days ago, I like it very much.
I hope that our community will decide to use it for all online games
You can't play competitive games with 1.03 I think, at least that's what Tosa/Yuuki said.
I don't play comps anymore but many do hence 1.03 won't probably be the standard set of stats for everyone. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
Tera.
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Although stats may sound good, will this not just split an already small community if It cant be played with comp?
what happens to people that like to play both?
Boromir...
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"Lets Hunt Some Orc"
Catiline
06-06-2002, 15:06
good work lads. Even more incentive to reclaim my CDs
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Timeo hominem unius libri
Konnichiwa,
The batfile allows to swap the the stats in a second. You can play either 1.01, 1.02 or 1.03 games. It also has 5 slots for extra custom stats.
The argument that it will divide a small community: more options seems to mean that it will attract more people.
This has been raised before: the host can select different maps to play (even comps) but he has only 1 stat. It should be possible to make custom stats, give them custom names and store all of them in one folder and then select one if you host a game, friendly or competitive. Other players who have this stat can then join. A pre battle CRC will ensure that every player has the right stat, to prevent 'irregularities'.
True, there'll be more options than you like, but after some time there'll be some mainstream stats. Of course it's always possible to play a completely different one, just for fun. Kraellin has made a funstat once, mortar TB's with big range. Lightflashes and explosions everywhere, I enjoyed it.
The second benefit of this is, that you never have to wait for CA to come out with a 6 MB patch to fix a bit too weak monks: players can make the changes themselves.
Allow me to mention some very popular games: Half-Life, UT, Quake. There are many mods/stats/total conversions for those games and each of them are played.
STW is like a communistic society while Half-Life is more like a free market economy. Both have a lot of less nice things, but you're free to choose the nice stuff in the latter.
The 1.03 package tries to convert STW more into a free market: play what you want.
The host could password protect his games like 101, 102, 103 just to remind joiners which stat will be played.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
but it is possible to play comp games with 1.03 isn't it Tosa?
Good Points, Tosa-san
If it is easy to swap, and I mean easy for a computer idiot like me then its a good thing.
Boromir...
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"Lets Hunt Some Orc"
shingenmitch2
06-06-2002, 19:32
Nice work to Yuuk et. al.
I think the new patch will be a major improvement.
One point: when loading 1.03, not only do you have to play "FRIENDLY" games, but you MUST password your game to make sure that 1.02 people don't join. The problem is that 1.02 people can jump in, buy army and then game crashes when it goes to battle.
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I must say I was hoping to see more unit size variation than all being 60 (except for kensai and BFN) . I can't remember if it was Vanya, but someone was working on stats that based off the 100 man unit, only most units varried from 50-60 in size, and cheap "filler units" like YA had 100. Admittedly this would be tough to balance, but it creates some real interesting possibilities.
Quote Originally posted by shingenmitch2:
...The problem is that 1.02 people can jump in, buy army and then game crashes when it goes to battle....[/QUOTE]
OMG! That just plain... sucks! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif Newbies coming in who don't know better will join and get sync-dropped or just have the game crash to desktop! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif They will never return! This means fewer 'new heads' to cut off! GAH!
Maybe 1.03 games should only be played in a separate online chat room so they won't be mixed in with the general population. This way, it might be easier on those that lack the patch. Surely you can see how their experience would be utterly shattered if all they came across were sync-drops! The game would degrade to the same dusty 12 old geezers playing themselves over and over.
Also... on this 'swapping' thing... (ie, the 'Shoggy Lifestyle' http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif )... please tell me more. I have never used one of these non-official patch things mostly because of the file swapping issue. I guess its some fire and Buddhastone fear of corrupting my valuable Shoggy files that keeps me from doing it. Include screen caps of this 'swap tool' thingie. Put a link to a nice online PDF helpfile, complete with pictures, instructions, troubleshooting, etc. so we know what we would be getting into.
Its kinda like a bastid afraid of heights contemplating sky diving... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
I still think the best way to get it accepted is to get EA to make it 'official' somehow. I do like the stat selector idea mentioned somewhere, where the host could just pick a stat set to use within the hosting options. That would be best 'cause they could live side-by-side and there would be no file swapping... and so my corruption nightmare would end... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Otherwise, Boro-sama is right...
GAH!
Quote Originally posted by TosaInu:
Konnichiwa,
The batfile allows to swap the the stats in a second. You can play either 1.01, 1.02 or 1.03 games. It also has 5 slots for extra custom stats.[/QUOTE]
Dear Tosa,
Could you explain that how can you do it?
Cheetah
Wavesword
06-06-2002, 23:04
The stat swapper is a great tool by the way, I'm juggling stats by the dozen here! In fact, the more sets of stats the better.
Quote Originally posted by Cheetah:
Dear Tosa,
Could you explain that how can you do it?
Cheetah[/QUOTE]
I love this tool, what you do, is download Statswapeer 2.0 and extract it to your Shogun directory.
Any time you want to change you run 10xSwap batch file in your Shogun directory and after pressing 3 keys on your keyboard, you swapped the stats! Takes less that a minute for user of any experience.
Ryurik
[This message has been edited by Dom (edited 06-06-2002).]
Kraellin
06-07-2002, 12:27
and one word to the dev guys; the trend, i can now say, IS making a game more moddable. folks DO want to contribute and create. this is a proven fact and it's now showing up in the market place in new games. quake, wolfenstein, dungeon siege, neverwinter nights (due out this summer), and others are beginning to open up the files to users. and not only are they simply somewhat moddable here and there, they are being designed from the onset to be almost completely moddable.
there are an awful lot of creative folks out there who cant program worth a dern, but who do wish to do something creative with a game. i visited one dungeon siege site recently, and this game is only about a month old, there were already 4 PAGES of mods available, and that's not counting the maps and was just one site. they recently added 19 new site links to their main page. they also cut a deal with the folks who make studio 3d max and got them to put out a free DS 3d max for making 3d models for the game. free. they've also already released a patch, opened a beta server, and released the SDK toolset...twice. they patched that too already.
and neverwinter nights ...well, read my post in off topic about it...they've already released the SDK toolset and the game isnt even released yet!
the mod wars are coming into full swing. it's gonna be gear up or get out. strat games already suffer in the computer gaming arena, as far as sales. it therefore becomes even more important to attract attention, meet needs and wants, and attact creative folks to this type of game.
we, i, appreciate what the guys at CA have done to try and meet the needs and wants of us fussy, neurotic, whiny, little.... but perhaps someone needs to poke the grand high mucky-mucks into also looking at what this community is asking for.
ok. enough rabble-rousing. i now return you to your regularly scheduled topic.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
Wait so does 1.03 patch make guns (especialy musketeers) "absolete"? If yes, then this makes my conquest with Oda less fun - but Usuegi should exell.
PS. Whoever created this patch, probably doesn't favour either guns or Oda, or both.
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I am the law and you can't beat the law.
theforce
06-07-2002, 13:22
Won't that mean more rushes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
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I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!
Orda Khan
06-07-2002, 13:22
It was not intended for use in campaign, only online. It works fine on custom too.
Guns are still there just they muskets now not m-16s.
But what oh what have you done to the Mongols? Heavy cav now fight with a wet lettuce, cav archers got no fight in them.
If you beat Japanese army Online with these watered down Mongols you're a master.
...........Orda
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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
theforce
06-07-2002, 20:14
Scaled down guns+better monks=rushfest!!!
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I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!
Orda Khan
06-07-2002, 20:35
Not really. Monks suffer badly against archers.
...Orda
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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
Still play testing 1.03
but it does seem way anti-mongol to me.
Quote
13) Mongol heavy cavaly restored to 60 men, to Japanese heavy cavalry speeds, slightly less morale, less hand-to-hand combat power, closer spacing between men and turning speed decreased.
14) Mongol light cavalry restored to 60 men, more (50) arrows of less power but higher accuracy, faster reload, less armor, closer spacing between men and turning speed
decreased.
15) Korean Skirmisher has less ammo, less range and less armor.
16) Korean Spearman has slightly less hand-to-hand combat ability and less armor.
17) Korean Guardsman has less armor.
[/QUOTE]
Making Foot worse than before - as if they weren't bad enough already, making Cav heaps less effective
Everything Mongol except TB's have less...
Perhaps too much less...
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DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://doragon.cjb.net)
First of all I point out that I had no idea this was in the making and only realised that when I saw it was out.
Ok now to my main point. I'm going to look at each change individually and evaluate them IMO - excluding Mongol changes, as I don't fight these games even in SP and cannot back anything I say:
1) The rate of kills in hand-to-hand combat is slower giving more time to maneuver free units for flanking attacks and making units less likely to rout early.
-Not necessary. I find the game already is slow enough. If you can't keep up, then you are not a good general and face defeat. If you aren't quick enough to command, then you die.
2) Muskets kill less per volley, have longer reload, have a higher ratio of friendly kills, have less ammo (15), have lower hand-to-hand combat ability and more armor. It's now possible to rush muskets with a higher chance of success.
Also unnecessary. Muskets do not pose such a large threat. Who said it was hard to charge muskets? Christ have any of you been playing lately? Rushing muskets isn't hard!! And if by this you mean rushing 8 muskets is hard, then that is no problem because most people play 4max.
Friendly fire I might agree with, and perhaps the ammo. But why lower the rate of fire? To counter arrows? There seems no reason for this? Yuuki, Magy, Monsta, anyone explain?!?
Ok. I do understand, however, that it is hard to incorporate muskets into the game realistically. The only way in this respect is to allow only one or two units in a fight, which can only be done if all players agree. In essence, as real as you want them to be, muskets will always be out of place.
3) Arqs have less ammo (10), a slower reload but fire more powerful shots.
LOL. As if they were already too good? If anything they are the worst unit in the game, now they're most definitely that.
4) Yari ashigaru have lower morale and lower combat ability which means they will loose to every other infantry type, but with moderate upgrades will still be useful for protecting guns from cav and for chasing routed units with their high foot speed.
Ok I submit. This I agree with. But I think it would have been simpler just to increase the cost of upgrades (unless it couldn't be done?)
5) Samurai archers and cavalry archers use the same bow to allow Mongol light cavalry to have a bow with different characteristics. Samurai archers have more (36) ammo and less hand-to-hand combat ability while cavalry archers have less (18) ammo and less armor so that they remain inferior to foot archers in ranged combat.
Sam Archers also carry a Sword. Now they might as well be carrying brooms. And why increase their ammo?? Is this trying to make them beat muskets? They already beat an equal amount of muskets enough so that you can then step up your own muskets to polish off the rest.
6) Warrior monks have slightly better hand-to-hand combat, higher morale and less armor which brings them back as a threat worthy of their 550 koku cost with archers being their mortal enemy.
Agreed! I've found monks don't seem capable of holding line long enough when attacking. But I don't agree with you on one thing, monks are supposed to be the core unit in an attack. The monks should be your centre drive, while no-dachi are the support. Archers maybe their weakest enemy, but they should be able to hold against Naginata - but you also upgraded them so that defeats the object.
7) Naginata slightly improved hand-to-hand combat and morale to balance the improvement to warrior monks, although, they will still loose to warrior monk when in engage-at-will.
Just explained this above. Naginata and monks should be the core units in defence/attack. Why do I use naginata so much? Because I know they will beat monks, they will hold in fact most units when attacked.
8) Cavalry charge increased to keep it's balance relative to warrior monk and naginata without increasing it's strength relative to yari infantry.
If you pump up one, you pump up them all. So I agree here.
9) Turning speed of yari samurai, yari ashigaru and naginata slowed down to represent clumsy weapon and heavy armor. Affects combat ability.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif A good point. I hope you didn't decrease this too much tho hehe.
10) Turning speed of yari cavalry, naginata cavalry and heavy cavalry increased to improve maneuverability. Affects combat ability.
Hmmmm. Hard to say, I don't know horses turning speed IRL. Pivoting on the spot, I would guess, is pretty hard for a four legged animal?
11) Kensai armor lowered to zero since ranged units have such a difficult time hitting a single man. Run and charge speed raised.
*sigh* So this is supposed to make Kensai even more susceptible to fire. *pauses to think* Nope. Can't agree.. Realistically you are correct, but if it's just as easy to hit the guy and kill him as it is with a 60-man unit, then you need a 60-man kensai unit.
12) Battlefield Ninja stars slightly improved to increase killing rate, run and charge speed increased.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Ninja will become a unit to fear even moreso. Get one of these on your newly naked Kensai and he's a dead man. A shame really, since I've seen Ninja already do a lot of damage before...and thought them too accurate before.
Ok now the rest are Mongol changes. Thing is, if I look up, I think I see clearly that I don't agree with the "patch"....only on a few issues.
Oh well. They way I see it, the future brings: obsoletion of musketeers as a "missile phase" unit. Players will start to keep them as backup for a charge rather than using them in a shooting contest. Which, in the end, will make an army a lot more suceptible to open charges, becauses the arrows will not stop moving targets.
I also see Kensai becoming obsolete, because they have no armour and are easily shot up.
I think I've given some reasonably good arguments, however I know a lot of you will disagree. I hope that my arguments don't offend, and I would be pleased if any rational points are put accross....for or against my views.
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The Soul
"What people do to other souls
They take their lives - destroy their goals
Their basic pride and dignity
Is stripped and torn and shown no pity"
Well Soul...clearly anti-1.03. But you have't tried it yet. Do try it.
Then post again. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Well sure, the Mongols were a hackjob, indisputably, but they kind of expected that, and I don't blame them. Heck, I've never taken a serious whack at them, so all I can do is say good for them for trying. Mongols very hard to balance.. if it is more balanced now, etc., I would shut up and stop whining, you can't expect to much.
And Tera is right about playing first and talking later..
Matt
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Shogun 2 now available for download! Comes with a nifty version-switching program, so never have to break a sweat! Click here (http://stw2.polarisun.net/stw2.zip) NOW!!
To read all about it, click here (http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000398.html).
Well Tera you did say you wouldn't post now you shouldn't have lol.
I will not leave this game because some stupid patch changes it. I am against those changes, but if I have to, I will update and adapt to them - like I tried to do with the others, although I always failed miserably http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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The Soul
"What people do to other souls
They take their lives - destroy their goals
Their basic pride and dignity
Is stripped and torn and shown no pity"
Kahm7 - played it plenty BEFORE i commented,
thank you.
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DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://doragon.cjb.net)
What is this 3-key stroke thingie you talk about?!? Surely, you must be kidding!
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif
Shirley! You must be kidding!
GAH!
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif
[Grumbles]
[Looks at Org main page]
[Contemplates downloading v1.03 stats]
GAH! I can't do it! Its... Its... WRONG!
[Itchy finger reaches for mouse]
GAH! 'Tis the work of the DEVIL! I... must... resist... temptation!
GAH!
[Sweat rolls down forehead]
[Wife walks in and says "What the flock are you doing there behind that computer! Look at you! Are you looking at PORN?!?!?"]
GAH! NOOOOOOOOOOOO!
[Closes browser with swift click on the 'X']
GAH! Saved by the mouse!
[Sighs]
The Soul,
Thanks for the comments. You have some good points. I'll respond to each one. My feeling is that if there is something really off base in v1.03 we should fix it. The v1.03 is what the v1.02 should have been. It's unfortunate that so many players are now use to using v1.02.
1) Rate of kills in hand-to-hand combat slower.
WE/MI v1.01 was widely criticized for playing too fast. Some bug fixes in the network code made the game play faster than STW. While the foot speed of infantry was slowed down 25% in v1.02 to compensate for this, the fighting speed was not slowed down. This altered infantry tactics considerably since flanking with reserve infantry units after the front line engages takes too long to accomplish. The slower combat in v1.03 is an attempt to restore the tactical possibilities that were there before. In general, 1 point was shifted from melee to defend to accomplish this. If players feel that combat is now too slow, it is possible to hit a point half way in between by taking a point off of the defend value. Only whole numbers can be used here. Also, a fast moving game does not increase the quality of gameplay. You need time to make your moves. There are 16 units to issue commands to and it takes time to make the rounds. This game isn't supposed to be about fast reflexes.
2) Muskets weaker.
I ran tests on v1.03 and v1.02 muskets. Firing on YS at max range, 3 ammo,
flat map, both units in 20x3 deep formation. It's hard to see a difference
since I only used 6 musk and 6 YS for each test. In one run the v1.03 musk
killed more than the v1.02 musk. However, looking at all my tests I would
say the v1.03 musk give 10% less kills than the v1.02 musk. I would put the
v1.03 musk at 27 kills and the v1.02 musk at 30 kills for 3 ammo. It's not
much of a difference. Archers are not going to get anything remotely close to 27 kills with 3 ammo. The 3 second longer reload is probably more important, and that's only a 12% increase. The rate of fire in v1.02 was 12% slower than v1.01, but the infantry was slowed down 25%, so this additional 3 second slowdown brings reload into line with the change to infantry foot speed. The 15 ammo still gives the musket unit 45 volleys of 20 guns and potential to kill 135 men. A musket in v1.02 has potential to kill 200 men. That's too much considering that there are only 960 men in the whole army.
I simply disagree that charging a musket in v1.02 is easy. If that were true, people wouldn't be playing at 10,000 koku which causes other probelms. The game is supposed to be playable at 5000 koku.
3) Arq's have 10 ammo and slower reload.
This is incorrect. Arq has 33 second reload which is the same for all versions of WE/MI. You won't notice the 10 ammo as less than muskets because the reload is slower. The arq is dangerous at short range. It fires a larger caliber bullet and this is reflected in the power parameter which is higher than for muskets.
4) Yari ashigaru lower morale and lower combat.
We can't adjust unit costs, so this is the only way to bring this unit down from it's lofty position.
5) SA 36 ammo and CA 18 ammo.
That's almost 30% more ammo for archers. It is an attempt to enhance it's role as a ranged unit. The musket has it's armor increased by +1, so the archer/musk balance is about the same as in v1.02. The SA lost 1 melee point to compensate the increased ammo. CA ammo was dropped about 36% because their bow was 33% less accurate in v1.02, but now is the same as SA. The armor on CA was lowered by 1 point. They definitely cannot go head to head with SA or muskets. This is more of a finesse unit where you try to shoot at enemy no-dachi or monks.
6) Monks should be able to defeat naginata in v1.03, but as I recall it is close. The zero armor is probably needed to prevent the monk rush from coming back. An 8 monk and 8 heavy cav army is quite formidable in v1.03.
7) The naginata costs less than the monk, and shouldn't be able to defeat it. If the naginata beats the monk, it will be the new super unit. I think this unit is very close to being too good.
8) The cav charge was pumped to keep up with increases on monks and naginata rather than the melee so that the cav would not pick up strength vs yari infantry which cancels the charge if they are facing the cav. The charge is getting pretty high now, and the rock, paper, scissors is stretched to the limit of what the system can stand.
9) Khan7 pointed out that the naginata weapon is not clumsy, and probably the unit should not be encumbered so much. All I can say is that the unit is strange. Some unit has to be the defensive unit for gameplay reasons, but it's not intuitive that this unit which has a very dangerous weapon like a naginata can hardly kill.
10) Better turning on cav to make them a little more responsive to change in direction. They seem to take forever to change direction in v1.02. This doesn't show up as anything drastic in the v1.03 gameplay, but I think it is noticable.
11) Kensai armor zero.
Gives archers a better chance to kill kensai. However, archers will rarely hit a moving kensai, and a stationary kensai will take between 4 and 7 volleys of arrows before he dies. I fought a couple of kensai in v1.03, and they are still very tough. This change was really done to reduce the likelyhood of an all kensai rush from working.
12) BN stars more powerful.
Only 20% more powerful, and armor has no effect on stars so the kensai's armor never did protect him from stars. The BN in v1.02 has proven to be slightly too weak for it's cost, and that's why it was given a little boost.
13) The Mongols may have been weakened too much. It seems like a hard win with the Mongols in v1.03. In v1.02 it's a pretty easy win with the Mongols. The rediculous cost of some of the units doesn't help matters. This part of the game probably still needs futher adjustment.
MizuYuuki ~~~
#5
36 vs 18 (amo) is 50% more not 30%.
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I am the law and you can't beat the law.
BomilkarDate
06-08-2002, 14:42
Well, there is one major problem with the patch 1.03. There are perhaps 40 guys still playing Shogun. When you are on normally there are about 20 other players online. But half of them have 1.02 half have 1.03. Some are AFK, some are in game, perhaps one third of the players is unable to host because they are on a LAN or whatever. Now try to get a game with only 6 or 7 active people with the same version on. This is not meant to be a critic to the 1.03 stats. Actually I have never tried them online. I simply was not able to. I was online for two hours and I had no game with 1.03 stats. I was in one game, but someone dropped (another annoying thing that decreases number of games you can play.) Or short, the community is too small for having it divided once more. The only thing we can hope ist that within a week everyone will have 1.03 or everyone will have switched back to 1.02 (I prefer the first one at the moment, but well I rather play against super Ashis, than not to play at all).
I did some single player games against AI and I have to say I do like most of the new stats. I am sure all the patch makers just wanted to make the game better and make it more fun. But at the moment it is really hard to have a game at all. At least for me, as I cant host games. I won't give up trying to play Shogun now. But if things do not change in a week or so, I can't see why I should continue staying online and hoping to get one game per day.
I really hope that people will get 1.03, I really hope I will get some games, I really hope the community will survive this and be able to go on till Medieval comes out.
Strength and honour
ELITEofBomilkar Date
Yes Boro i new this would be a major problem..
It needs to be sorted out......so everybody is plyin the same patch..
But arent ppl usin XP havin problems with it?
Not really, they are having problems with the StatSwapper and XP's limited (non-existent) legacy dos support
- That problem can be fixed easy
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003323.html
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DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://doragon.cjb.net)
Prodigy,
The CA had 28 arrows, so 18 is 36% less than 28. That compensates for the 33% better accuracy. They have lost ground to SA because SA have 28% more arrows than they did in v1.02, and CA armor was lowered from 3 to 2.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Sorry Puzz3D,
But they way you put it in the #5, explains the confusion.
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I am the law and you can't beat the law.
*Thinks hard*
I don't know still. The wierd thing that I came to realise is that my tactics lately, and my army, would most certainly benefit from 1.03 stats. I guess I also spoke out of ignorance...I didn't know how much you'd changed the game.
Now Yuuki and mods team. I don't know anything bout computer tech and all that, but is there anyway you could make it that 1.02 cannot even join 1.03? So instead of it being a mod, it becomes a full patch in its own right. It won't solve Bachus' problem, but I'm sure soon enough there'll be enough players on 1.03 to "force" stubborn peeps like me to move up too http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
This is really a necessity too. We can't have newbies coming in not realising they got the wrong version and dropping all the time.
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The Soul
"What people do to other souls
They take their lives - destroy their goals
Their basic pride and dignity
Is stripped and torn and shown no pity"
BomilkarDate
06-09-2002, 17:27
The soul is right. We need one version for all. I really like freedom of choice. But I dont want to see the community dying because of "freedom of choice". We need one version. Whether it is 1.02 or 1.03 I do not care too much (perhaps rather 1.03). I just want to play this game.
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Strength and honour
Konnichiwa,
One patch is used 1.02 beta. Now you can host games using different kind of stats, of course all players must have the same stat loaded. You can switch a stat under 10 seconds without the need to reinstall a patch, reboot, or restart shogun. Yes the bat file reads 'a restart 'might be required' that's because some changes in stats on some computers do require a restart (this is especially true when unitsizes are changed or when you play offline).
I do never play comp games, I don't like games above 8k each, I prefer not to play games on iron, yet these games are hosted a lot. Could you explain me the difference between a game being unavailable because it's 1.03 and a game that's comp and not friendly or vice versa?
Boromir, I like to play games with DRB. Lately DRB was unavailable as he was playing tourney games (gefeliciteerd met deze zege DRB). Could you explain me the difference between a player being unavailable because he has 1.03 loaded and an unavailable player because he's playing a tourney game?
DOM, you organised an online campaign. Players playing campaignbattles are not available to play 'regular' games. Could you explain me the difference between a player being unavailable because he has 1.03 loaded and an unavailable player because he's playing a campaign game?
I prefer sengoku jidai games, yet mongol games are hosted. Could anyone enlighten me here? How about KOH, Capture, Siege, Assassinate?
And could someone do something about timezones? I rarely play Obake san.
What should I do when I want to play a game, and someone ask me about how to make maps, where to download them, a question about a unit, wants a chat about a campaign or tourney, help with a videocard? Reply in a typical STW community manner: 'DIE YOU BASTERD I'M BORED!' or 'sorry I can't chat with you now because the community wants me to play a 10k 1.02 game on iron and the game's already up for 10 seconds'?
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Tosa is pretty much right, I play in the same timezone as him and we often play in the same games.
Well, 1.03 isn't a real "patch" since no changes occur in the actual ShogunM(W).exe so the 1.03 is still version 1.02 but with different troopstats and projectiles txt's.
I think Yuuki is working on way to make 1.03 a truly "patch".
Tera.
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Orda Khan
06-09-2002, 19:54
Agreed Tosa San. Nobody was more sceptical than me and mainly because of my pc ignorance. As Vanya said 'scared to tamper and ruin the lot.' Once yourself and Mizu Yuuki told me what file to find (10xSwapstat) I realised how simple it is to swap. You are right, 10 seconds max. In the foyer late last night (or early this morning hehe) there seemed much confusion still about swapstat. I explained how easy it was and the people in question left, downloaded, returned and agreed. One player entered with 1.03, saw a 4v4 v1.02 game and swapped back to join.
I really do not know what the fuss is about. If we simply host a game and announce to the foyer :- 2v2 1.03 game, and password the game for the version, (102/103 etc) there is no confusion and people are free to join the game of their choice. Why do some feel that we should all play the same. It's a choice guys. It's like telling MagyarKhan he can't use all cav armies, it's his choice. Another strange thing is that most of those I hear who do not like 1.03 always seem to add that 1.03 would 'suit their armies and make them stronger players.'
It seems like I'm losing every battle these days after I thought I was getting somewhere too. I look upon it as a learning curve, if there are two learning curves then there is more of a challenge.
Online play is for us, the community. We must be a little more easy going. Everyone has their favourite type of battle. 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, Sengoku Jidai, Mongol Invasions, these are all personal choice and designed to appeal to many.
Tosa San you said you preferred Sengoku games. I would like to thank you for the two Mongol games the other day that would have been three had I not had to leave. I would like to thank the other Daimyos who fought in the 4v4 game that froze last night. I think I spent 17500 koku on my army! Yes large koku but a great game pity about the lag and the final freeze but it was FUN and worth it just for the view down to the valley floor strewn with the corpses of hundreds of brave warriors.
I say give 1.03 a try, it's just another way of playing the game and don't think we only have to play it this way.
..............Orda
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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
No but my point was missed.
If a new player comes in - maybe not now but in a few months when 1.03 is the main version - everyone will then expect everyone else to have 1.03 and will not advertise their games version. This player then joins, drops, joins someone else, drops....etc. If no-one actually realises he's got the wrong version then he may well just think "bugger it" and leave.
Like someone said in DRB's post, even if one player leaves - it is one player too many.
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The Soul
"What people do to other souls
They take their lives - destroy their goals
Their basic pride and dignity
Is stripped and torn and shown no pity"
Konnichiwa Soul san,
I apologise for missing your point. You are right, it would be better if STW handled custom stats like it handles custom maps: host selects a stat, if a joiner has a copy he can join (he should see which stat is used before joining) if he has no copy he can't join. He then should go download it or he should have toggled 'automatically receive files' on and be able to join the game (STW files are very small unlike the huge maps you need to play some UT games).
This is not the case with STW and I can't modify the exe. An external manager is the closest way to get there.
I'm happy you enjoy 1.02 beta games, some players feel bored with it and want something different. It seems more likely to me that these players will leave than someone who found out the his/her game gained an extra option.
All my games are passworded like 101, 102 or 103 and I tell every joiner which version is hosted, the foyer has a nice chatoption.
Orda Khan, it's a pleasure to play any game with such a great player like you. I enjoyed the games.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Zen Blade
06-11-2002, 09:55
Hey guys,
Long time since I've had any reasons to type a message here...... ; )
But, Tosa, Yuuki, and any other designers... could you give me your take on....playability ... What I mean by this is how many ppl do you find/think will be able to play this version... 10-15, any more? (I hope more)
I would like to try the new "patch" after classes finish this week.
Soul: "you can rush guns in 1.02"... ok, in my humble opinion... This is VERY inaccurate. I am an original player from version 1.0 and played well up until about 1 year ago when I left the game. I didn't play much after the newer mongol changes, but when I came back... OH MY...... was I upset and sad. ...
I am someone who rarily if ever used muskets and I had very good success b/c I could out-maneuver ppl (except for about a dozen brilliant players... most of whom I would call 'dogs' (wink, wink)). Anyways, I tried for about two weeks under pseudonames to find some way to play with minimal or no guns in the newest version... it was not hard against a new or average player, BUT against a good player you COULD NOT beat them unless you were relatively equal in muskets b/c they new all you had to do to counter a musket charge was to have a couple of cav units guarding your flanks and spears behind your musks for one-to-one...
Now, this being said, I'm an offensively minded player, I don't like to sit and I want to fight "quickly", but that doesn't mean I want to make the game so fast that you can't react... that merely means I want to engage in combat quickly and have a prolonged combat.
anyways,
Tosa, and all this sounds very good and if you guys could fill me in a bit more on how to use/install the patch, maybe I will be online in the near future.
-Zen Blade
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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member
Hi Zen_Blade,
After about 40 games with the v1.03, I like what I'm seeing, and it's not because I'm winning all the time because I'm not. If you make an analogy to a chess game, the average game has more moves now. This is because you have more time to make moves, since your units are not running away so quickly. I have seen whole armies routed by a rush when they were out of position and got flanked or had poor unit matchups.
All my games have been played at 6K to 7K koku, and the morale level is pretty good there. Morale feels a lot like old STW to me. While guns are still a strong deterent to a frontal infantry assault, there are ways to deal with them in v1.03. An archer/gun duel will pretty much decimate both units. Cavalry will quickly rout a gun once it engages it in hand-to-hand, and HC and NC can definitely frontally assault and reach the gun, and the cav is more likely to escape after attacking. The higher morale infantry units like monks and no-dachi can advance and reach the gun unit. The gun heavy army in v1.03 is not the overwhelming force it is in v1.02.
In the past 3 days, I've seen 3 veteran players who tried v1.03 for the first time come away with high kills and the victory against good opposition who already had experience with v1.03. Anyone good at maneuvering their units is going to do well, and should find plenty of opportunity to put that skill to use.
MizuYuuki ~~~
KenchiGambatte
06-11-2002, 14:24
Maybe 1.03 games should only be played in a separate online chat room so they won't be mixed in with the general population. This way, it might be easier on those that lack the patch. Surely you can see how their experience would be utterly shattered if all they came across were sync-drops! The game would degrade to the same dusty 12 old geezers playing themselves over and over.
I aggree with this point made by Vanya i think 103 should be played in a seperate chat room, this will allow all those wishing to play the new version to see exactly who is running the patch without lengthy recon of the foyer. Also of course stopping others from entering a 103 game whilst running the 102 version by mistake.
I have played the 1.03 version several times and think that it is an excellent addition to the game. And for the moment at least allows us moderate newbies to compete on a more level playing field with the more experienced 1,02 veterans.
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Newest Recruit of THe Oldest Shogen Clan.
Good Luck & Always Give it your all.
Orda Khan
06-11-2002, 20:46
Lol, Tosa San.
..........Orda
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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
Grrr Zen you called me a liar! I challenge you to a 1v1!
Better get back on here and start training! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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The Soul
"What people do to other souls
They take their lives - destroy their goals
Their basic pride and dignity
Is stripped and torn and shown no pity"
[This message has been edited by The Soul (edited 06-12-2002).]
Lethal DRB
06-12-2002, 16:56
Guys im not online for 4 days, but I was wondering if every1 was playing with the new "patch"?
Because then ill know I have to download em or dont.
DRB
Lethal DRB,
About 30 players have the v103 alternate stat working now.
MizuYuuki ~~~
heheeh and the modding continues... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Hi folks,
On looking at some of the changes you have made to our 1.02 beta patch i have the following comments:
1. If you were worried about muskets, why didn't you just make them unusable in the rain like arqs and like they were originally? That would have solved many problems and made weather much more important a factor. It would also mean the arq would become a realistic option as opposed to the all-weather firing musket..
2. I like the increases and decreases in turn time for some of the units. Especially for the cavalry.
3. Why even bother modifying the mongols. With the changes implemented for the japanese units you don't really have to touch them. Furthermore their infantry were already garbage in comparison to the japanese so why reduce spearmen, guardsmen and skirmishers further..?
4. I agree with the online changes to YA. IF we'd known that honour increases affected both att and def at the same time and not sequentially when we made the 1.02, then this would never have been a problem.
5. I agree that the reload times for muskets should be higher, especially since when they are in a row of 3 only the front row fires and reloads while the other are firing. This means that they can almost continuously fire by rotating.
6. Don't understand why the melee of SA should be lowered!? They are light samurai, carry a katana and should be useful in certain melee situations. I liked them as they were...
Thoughts?
Laters
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=MizuDoc Otomo=
=Clan Takiyama=
Hi DoCToR,
1. Muskets (incorrectly named) were able to fire in the rain, and that's why we left them like that. My own experiments show that the reload on guns is 2x longer in light rain and 3x longer in moderate rain. Also, misfires are 50% in light rain and 75% in moderate rain. The usefullness of the musket is greatly reduced by rain.
2. Cav is more responsive to change in direction now.
3. Mongols were still unbalanced in v102. They are different now. That's all, just different.
4. YA would still have been a problem. Remember we made them weaker, and they were too weak for the single player campaign. Too late was the option to have separate offline and online stats known to us.
5. We had reload on muskets at 27 sec and power at 3 for a time in the v102 beta, but didn't stick with it.
6. Reduced combat on SA is to emphasize their role as a ranged unit and to compensate for the extra arrows.
MizuYuuki ~~~
I still don't get Doc's number 6 Yuuki. For being historically accurate you turned the arrows into a missile unit only, which they were not.
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The Soul
"What people do to other souls
They take their lives - destroy their goals
Their basic pride and dignity
Is stripped and torn and shown no pity"
Konnichiwa,
Foot archers in sengoku jidai were specialised ashigaru not samurai.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
TosaInu is quite correct..
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