Do factions move simultaneously?

[RedKnight]

I just had the Papacy attack me the very turn I moved a big stack out of a province. It's always possible it was chance but it got me wondering... do countries move in turn, or all at once? That is to say, does A go, then B sees what A did and B goes, etc. (in turn), or does A and B and C etc. all see the same thing, plan their moves, then everybody ends turn and the stuff hits the fan?

[pdoan8]

It appears that factions move in turn one after another so you can see AI move if you turn on the option. However, as I remember, (from a post by one of the Dev), AI are not allowed to see each other move until the turn cycle completed.

It seems to be in this sequence:

- Player move - player end turn - AI move - turn complete

AI should not be allowed to see player move.

[motorhead]

Sometimes it can seem like the AI peeked, but i've seen the AI make moves that would be ridiculous if they could see player moves. I've captured teched up provs with just a single unit of peasants when the AI moved every unit out - if it can see player moves then it needs glasses http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif

[TonkaToys]

Interesting...

I always thought that the player and the AI all performed their moves blind of what was going on elsewhere.

Then I thought that the game randomised the order in which each faction went so that on one turn it might be A then B then C, but on the next it might be B then A then C, etc.

Not sure though, because when I invaded a province the other day one of my allies joined in... uninvited and with a bigger force, so after I did all the hard work he took the province Gah http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

I'd like to know, as that is what I was planning for the automated MP Campaign I'm working on.

[Ulair]

Quote[/b] (TonkaToys @ June 04 2004,09:19)]Not sure though, because when I invaded a province the other day one of my allies joined in... uninvited and with a bigger force, so after I did all the hard work he took the province Gah http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

That wasn't England and Spain do Navarre by any chance, was it? I've had that happen on two English campaigns now - just as I get round to Navarre (after trashing the French inside 9 years http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ) the Spanish roll up with a huge stack of jinettes, UMs and RKs, way overkill for Navarre, and almost as if they knew I'd be moving in and wanted to make sure they had the bigger stack... Makes me a little suspicious, though I'm pretty sure all moves are simultaneous...

Cheers,
Ulair

[Westland]

If I remember correctly, somebody found out that every province has a number. The moves are performed in that order. So first come the moves with units in province nr. 1, than 2, 3 etc.
This way sometimes the AI has the advantage of knowing your moves and sometimes it doesn't. Not totally fair but it's a better system than in Shogun.

[motorhead]

the provs are numbered in the game files, but i've never heard that this determines move order. Where did you hear this? I've only heard prov# might determine what gets built (in case you're short of cash) and which prov your new ruler appears in (in case of a tie in the number of buildings).

[Westland]

I read this a long time ago here at the org. Perhaps it was only a theory. The discussion about the move order of the AI is not exactly new.

[English assassin]

I think there was a thread on this in the main hall but I can't remember if it ever came to a definite conclusion.

Surely though everyone has noticed that when you invade a province, the AI piles reinforcements into it? (I know you can avoid this by invading the adjacent provinces with token forces and then retreating if you want, I mean, if you don't do that.) But when YOU get invaded you have to fight with whatever forces were in that province only.

That has to mean that the AI moves after you in each turn, and gets to see your moves for that turn, surely?

or, try saving, and moving most of your forces out of a border province: I guarantee the enemy will come piling accross the border that same turn. then reload and leave the forces where they were: no invasion.

Its a con but I guess its necessary to make the AI a bit of achallenge at least.

[motorhead]

Quote[/b] (Westland @ June 04 2004,08:08)]I read this a long time ago here at the org. Perhaps it was only a theory. The discussion about the move order of the AI is not exactly new.
- never claimed move order discussion was new. but you claimed prov # determines move order. I'm quite active here and at the .com and have never seen this theory. I also keep an archive of dev comments and i've never seen any semi-official word on this. If it's just a theory, do you have any test results that would verify this?

@english assasin: granted, sometimes the AI sure looks like it's cheating, but in my example above (AI abandoned a teched up prov to 1 unit of peasants) the AI sure acts brain-dead if it _always_ sees player moves in advance. Maybe there's some random factor that sometimes give the AI a peek and sometimes not (just a pure guess).

[Gregoshi]

There is another thread on this either here in the Entrance Hall or the Main Hall. In that thread, I believe it was Giljay from CA, said that the AI is not aware of your move ahead of time. He later posted with some embarrassment that he found out from one of the other staff members that the AI does take a little peek at your move.

[motorhead]

well, if the AI does take a little peek then it does some odd things with it. I've seen the AI completely abandon provinces often enough that if i'm feeling rather cheesy i'll adopt a 1 peasant invasion every single turn, waiting for the AI to do the inevitable disappearing act. It works often enough that i don't do it (unless the cheese monster bites me) cuz it's AI abuse http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-devil.gif

edit: found the giljaysmith thread (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=6498). Well, the small peek the AI takes still doesn't translate into 100% unfair AI moves. Just last night, I'm turks, invade sicilians in bulgaria with nearly every unit from constan, hoping the AI just withdraws and lets me loot the prov for some quick cash. The next turn, after i returned 99% of my troops to constan, the sicilians send a pitiful army attacking constan and run away without even coming to battle. If the AI were smart with the info it sees, it could have invaded constan the same turn i moved nearly all of my troops out and had a decent shot at actually winning, at least 100 times better than it did after my main armies returned.

[RedKnight]

Thanks guys - quite informative. So I guess the upshot is maybe kinda sorta, but it's balanced by the fact that they sometimes make lame defenses or attacks anyway, regardless of whether they're peeking, laugh. Anyway... it's all grist for the mill, eh? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

Hey who put the helmets and hair on the cheer dudes? And could that be a valkyrie on the right?? I'm going to have to hit the tavern more often http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Gregoshi]

Thanks for tracking down that thread motorhead http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[Ludens]

Very interesting Motorhead. Do you know in which thread he mentions all the AI cheats? Or has that thread been removed?

[Blodrast]

my two cents:
@Motorhead: I believe that most of the weird (read: stupid) decisions that the AI makes are probably caused by the fact that even if it sees what you are doing, its decision-making algorithm leads it to a crappy decision. But this is because of the algorithm, not because it's blind ;)

on the other hand, I personally have the feeling that most of the time (not always, mind you), the AI acts as if it can only see the same moves that you would see if you were it, i.e. stuff that's going on in adjacent provinces or provinces that you have agents in. That's just a feeling, of course, and it might be largely due to the fact that, as giljaysmith said, the AI is trying to make it look as if it didn't cheat.

[motorhead]

@Ludens - sadly it appears that thread is long gone. I found someone asking for that same thread Jan '03 and no reply, so i'm guessing it was a really old post that got purged.