Egyptians featured at IGN [Archive]

[DnC]

06-05-2004, 12:32

Citaat[/b] (Monk @ Juni 04 2004,23:33)]
Citaat[/b] (alman9898 @ June 04 2004,23:29)]CA promised and even stated that the Egyptians have some Greek units awhile ago (Egyptian hoplites)
I am in a state of shock as of now...i was under the impression (esp from TC) that Egypt would have some sort of Phalanx. I do realize i don't know much about egypt of this era...but come on No Greek units at all? thats just terrible to say the least http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Monk,

"Nubian Spearmen

These militia-like soldiers can fight in harsh conditions and they are cheap defensive troops for the Pharaoh's armies. Armed with a long, thrusting spear and a large wooden shield, these men are primarily defensive and can hold their own against cavalry. However, they can also be formed into phalanxes and sent against other infantry. Their lack of training and armour means that they should not be used to attack armoured or elite troops. Nubian spearmen were originally recruited in the south, but since it is not uncommon for a Nubian soldier to be rewarded with land for his service, they can be found in every part of the Pharaoh's realms."

"Nile Spearmen

These well trained spearmen are the mainstay of many Egyptian armies, thanks to their all-round defensive abilities. They wear no armour - hardly surprising given the incredibly hot climate of home - but do carry large shields. They do not carry secondary weapons at all, and rely entirely on their spears in combat. This means that they are best employed to hold a defensive position against cavalry, or as a rough phalanx to take on other infantry by 'push of pike' and weight of numbers. These men are better trained than some other Egyptian forces, such as Nubian spearmen, and will hold more often as a result."

Raggs already gave the other one.
At least three units able to form a Phalanx, sounds good enough to me.

Leet Eriksson

06-05-2004, 12:32

Not everythings bad,there are atleast 2 buildings that belonged to the greeks,the great library and the pharos light-house.the nubians and some other egyptian spearman unit can form the phalanx.I'm still dissapointed,Who will be interested in this faction?Not even the egyptians themselves would like it.

egypt should retain some units,but the rest should be made macedonian/greek,the city should be a mix of greek/macedonian+a bit of egyptian.hopefully that won't be hard to mod.

Mr Durian

06-05-2004, 12:49

98% of the people who will play RTW will not care that much about historical accuracy. And having 3 factions that use phalanx troops is gonna make the game dull. I rather prefer more variety in gameplay.

The Blind King of Bohemia

06-05-2004, 13:33

This game sounds like a riot http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif What a laugh we will have http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Trax

06-05-2004, 13:34

When the game comes out we should all join forces and make one great history mod, otherwise there will be many small and low quality ones around.

Basileus

06-05-2004, 14:23

not much to say besides http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif

hundurinn

06-05-2004, 15:36

They may be histoical incorrect but don't we have more than enough of factions that have the "typical" Greek/Macedonian units. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-anxious.gif Isn't it just better to have some faction that is completely different? This is after all a game not a history simulator. And in my opinion CA should do as much as they can to have it historically correct but there will always be something inaccurate.

This makes no sense what I just said. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif

RisingSun

06-05-2004, 16:06

But for God's sake, Gawain, couldn't we have ONE????

Just one???? Wow, CA really cares about us. Lies Lies lies lies

*cries in a corner*

Monk

06-05-2004, 16:48

[DnC]

When i said not one phalanx, i was talking about a Greek Phalanx, something that was at least .05% historically accurate. And if those units you named are the ones i'm thinking of, they have huge hats and they look like their from 3000 b.c not 300.

Quote[/b] ]egypt should retain some units,but the rest should be made macedonian/greek,the city should be a mix of greek/macedonian+a bit of egyptian.hopefully that won't be hard to mod.

We can only hope faisal

ah_dut

06-05-2004, 16:53

Monk or less than that level of historical accuracy even http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif

frogbeastegg

06-05-2004, 17:24

So...someone want to give me a rough idea of how long it will take to mod in units who didn't wander out of a tomb painting? As in, how long will it take for someone else to do it, fiddling with text files is my skill limit.

The chariots have blades on the wheels. That says it all. The chariots are crewed by 3 Ramesess the Greats, and they have blades on the wheels. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/geishablank.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/geisha_angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

I can bear some inaccuracy very easily, as my sig says hoping for a mostly accurate RTW, but this is too much even if this were a fantasy game like AOM it is too much.

The_Emperor

06-05-2004, 17:36

Quote[/b] (RisingSun @ June 05 2004,16:06)]But for God's sake, Gawain, couldn't we have ONE????

Just one???? Wow, CA really cares about us. Lies Lies lies lies

*cries in a corner*
Errm that isn't Gawain, he just has the same Avatar... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-05-2004, 18:28

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ June 05 2004,11:24)]So...someone want to give me a rough idea of how long it will take to mod in units who didn't wander out of a tomb painting? As in, how long will it take for someone else to do it, fiddling with text files is my skill limit.
I'm afraid that will depend on the "modability" of the game. Since CA told everyone that they were listening to user imput, and, dispite that, they've released this unbelievable sh*** Egyptian units, this probably means that the game won't have any editor and it won't be more moddable than MTW... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif

Although I was expecting it from their early presentations, I had some little tiny residual hope. Not anymore... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

Quote[/b] ]The chariots have blades on the wheels. That says it all. The chariots are crewed by 3 Ramesess the Greats, and they have blades on the wheels. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/geishablank.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/geisha_angry.gif
Which even for Rameses's time it would have been ridiculous http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif Egyptians used ligth chariots for skirmisher actions, not impact purposes like the Hitites's heavy chariots, and they only used a driver and an archer in each. This was due to the fact that the chariots hadn't space for 3 men, nor could support their weight. Fu**ing ridiculous... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

Don't believe me? Just check this book (scroll the next pages until you see a full depiction of an Egyptian chariot of Rameses's time):

Egyptian Chariots (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1841766402/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-7393556-5260701#reader-page)

They didn't even got Pharaonic Egypt right, the sh**heads http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Quote[/b] ]I can bear some inaccuracy very easily, as my sig says hoping for a mostly accurate RTW, but this is too much even if this were a fantasy game like AOM it is too much.
Precisely. Stupid Activision marketing department a**holes They should be thrown here... ---->> http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toilet.gif ...and flushed, because sh** has the tendency to accumulate

Ellesthyan

06-05-2004, 18:43

Citaat[/b] ]They may be histoical incorrect but don't we have more than enough of factions that have the "typical" Greek/Macedonian units. Isn't it just better to have some faction that is completely different? This is after all a game not a history simulator. And in my opinion CA should do as much as they can to have it historically correct but there will always be something inaccurate.

This makes no sense what I just said.

You're right, it didn't. The Ptolemies weren't really different from the other 2 Diadochen. However, they had a unique position with Nubia and Libya close by (as we know, the famous light cavalry, elephants and phalanx units Hannibal used came from these regions), rich provinces, a large fleet and many oversea islands and coastal cities under control. Add to that that your monarch almost always marries his sister, you've got a bad-ass faction. Easily done without messing up History.

I seriously doubt that even the dumbest buyers of MTW (and face it; won't they just buy the newest hack and slash game instead?) would mind the Ptolemies. I seriously doubt anyone will get the game just to play the Egyptians. I know that at least someone (me) would buy the game just to play the Ptolemies. Also I do know that quite a lot of people know the old Egypt ended in that form at least a thousand years BC.

But an offensive should always give an alternative. Here's mine, easily implemented.

We're in the hide of a new player to the total war series. He knows about the Romans, about Alexander the Great, and he knows about the phalanx. A little bit more then average, but the average buyer will know a little more anyway.
Let's assume he can choose any faction from start. He's been in Egypt before, found his wife there, so he takes Egypt as his faction.
However, Egypt has an unfamiliar name: the Ptolemaic Empire... What's that? He skims through the historical information at the faction select menu.
Bla bla bla... Alexander the Great captured it... Alexander died... His old general and friend Ptolemeus I creates the new Ptolemaic Empire... It has a Greek culture... Alexandria with the famous lighthouse is the capital...

Our average user is NOT stupid. He quickly understands that this is not the ancient Egypt anymore, but a Hellenic kingdom. His mind races as he remembers about the lighthouse as one of the 7 world wonders, he remembers hearing about the famous library, and slowly the parts come together as a whole. Our man is excited This is cool stuff, something he didn't know before.

My alternative is thus a simple explanation how this faction came to be.
The people buying this game expect historical accuracy. They do NOT expect Hollywood.

Common Knowledge: New things make people excited --> fun. This guy will have fun playing the Ptolemies, I'm sure of it. CA is seriously underestimating the intellect of its clients. They should understand that no one is stupid, so stupid to misunderstand the Ptolemaic Empire.

hundurinn

06-05-2004, 18:45

lets start a mass protest. Where are their HQ. We will all gather there and start a "peaceful" protest. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Brighdaasa

06-05-2004, 18:49

just wish you would all shut up about this

ca told us that activion ordered them to make a game for the masses now, not the strategy/history fanatics

so this is it, more attractive to the young kids, easier to navigate, to handle,...

so get over it already, u're talking about a totally different game than what ca has been instructed to produce

Ellesthyan

06-05-2004, 18:51

Brighdaasa, read my last post.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-05-2004, 18:53

Quote[/b] (Ellesthyan @ June 05 2004,12:43)]
Quote[/b] ]They may be histoical incorrect but don't we have more than enough of factions that have the "typical" Greek/Macedonian units. Isn't it just better to have some faction that is completely different? This is after all a game not a history simulator. And in my opinion CA should do as much as they can to have it historically correct but there will always be something inaccurate.

This makes no sense what I just said.

You're right, it didn't. The Ptolemies weren't really different from the other 2 Diadochen. However, they had a unique position with Nubia and Libya close by (as we know, the famous light cavalry, elephants and phalanx units Hannibal used came from these regions), rich provinces, a large fleet and many oversea islands and coastal cities under control. Add to that that your monarch almost always marries his sister, you've got a bad-ass faction. Easily done without messing up History.

I seriously doubt that even the dumbest buyers of MTW (and face it; won't they just buy the newest hack and slash game instead?) would mind the Ptolemies. I seriously doubt anyone will get the game just to play the Egyptians. I know that at least someone (me) would buy the game just to play the Ptolemies. Also I do know that quite a lot of people know the old Egypt ended in that form at least a thousand years BC.

But an offensive should always give an alternative. Here's mine, easily implemented.

We're in the hide of a new player to the total war series. He knows about the Romans, about Alexander the Great, and he knows about the phalanx. A little bit more then average, but the average buyer will know a little more anyway.
Let's assume he can choose any faction from start. He's been in Egypt before, found his wife there, so he takes Egypt as his faction.
However, Egypt has an unfamiliar name: the Ptolemaic Empire... What's that? He skims through the historical information at the faction select menu.
Bla bla bla... Alexander the Great captured it... Alexander died... His old general and friend Ptolemeus I creates the new Ptolemaic Empire... It has a Greek culture... Alexandria with the famous lighthouse is the capital...

Our average user is NOT stupid. He quickly understands that this is not the ancient Egypt anymore, but a Hellenic kingdom. His mind races as he remembers about the lighthouse as one of the 7 world wonders, he remembers hearing about the famous library, and slowly the parts come together as a whole. Our man is excited This is cool stuff, something he didn't know before.

My alternative is thus a simple explanation how this faction came to be.
The people buying this game expect historical accuracy. They do NOT expect Hollywood.

Common Knowledge: New things make people excited --> fun. This guy will have fun playing the Ptolemies, I'm sure of it. CA is seriously underestimating the intellect of its clients. They should understand that no one is stupid, so stupid to misunderstand the Ptolemaic Empire.
Preciselly. The Hollywood-style arrogant approach is the root of these problems. Most people are depicted as dumb That is an enourmous mistake by a company that owes to Historical accuracy it's own market share http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif

hundurinn

06-05-2004, 19:02

This is getting out of hand.
Quote[/b] ]Our average user is NOT stupid. He quickly understands that this is not the ancient Egypt anymore, but a Hellenic kingdom. His mind races as he remembers about the lighthouse as one of the 7 world wonders, he remembers hearing about the famous library, and slowly the parts come together as a whole. Our man is excited This is cool stuff, something he didn't know before.
Thats right. I would be more excited to play something different Egypt faction than the image of what people think they are. Don't want a huge army of guys who look like pharaohs. If this is where the game is heading, fictional stuff then that is a matter we need to worry about.

Brighdaasa

06-05-2004, 19:05

Ellesthyan: the people who bought mtw expect all this, and not even all of those, just those posting here

the people ca/acitvision aim this game at expect the exaggerated stuff, and egyptians looking like egyptians, not greeks, the easier naviagtion, the green glow,...

they know u guys will still buy this game with the historical accuracies and stuff. u guys even said so yourself, u'll just mod the game. i haven't heard anyone saying they won't buy the game.

they put the egyptians and the chosen axemen and the nude barbarians in for those who aren't familiar with the total war series, to broaden their public.

they will keep the hollywood style cause they wannna sell more copies of rtw than mtw did, so they need to appeal to more gamers. face it, they exploited their potential of history fanatics and strategy fanatics, now they want the bigger audience," the kids", in it too.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-05-2004, 19:12

Quote[/b] (Brighdaasa @ June 05 2004,13:05)]Ellesthyan: the people who bought mtw expect all this, and not even all of those, just those posting here
You're falling on their dubious reasoning. You too think most people are dumb http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

Quote[/b] ]they know u guys will still buy this game with the historical accuracies and stuff. u guys even said so yourself, u'll just mod the game. i haven't heard anyone saying they won't buy the game.
That's because you didn't pay attention. I said I wouldn't buy it if it got worse... ...and it did http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Quote[/b] ]they will keep the hollywood style cause they wannna sell more copies of rtw than mtw did, so they need to appeal to more gamers. face it, they exploited their potential of history fanatics and strategy fanatics, now they want the bigger audience," the kids", in it too.
F*** them. They won't get my money. And too bad I'm not a reviewer for a large audience gaming magazine or site. I would obliterate the game in my review http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

TigerVX

06-05-2004, 19:12

Settle down people Hold up These are all UNIQUE units UNIQUE, MEANING ONLY FACTIONS TO HAVE THEM The greek Hoplite Phalanx will be available to all the greek factions, so will the elephants, but because they are available to all three, THEY'RE NOT POSTED. They posted all the cool unique units, they don't want us to see the Greek Phalanx in 3 different articles

On a side note, man, your not really gamers, or you are but your more devoted to history. Sacrificing gameplay for history? Madness Who wants to get rid of an entire faction just to make another Greece Clone?

Brighdaasa

06-05-2004, 19:13

btw, i'm not saying i like all of the historical inaccuracies, far from it, i want to play the ptolemaic egyptians and i hate the green glow, but that's the game ca/acitvision is making.

the activision maketing division however probably did a very thorough study of the market potential and this is the result. this decision has been made right after VI (ca said so themselves, they had to redo a lot of stuff to fit the game description activision set), and will not be changed by us, we can either not buy the game or mod it to make it historical more accurate.

Quote[/b] ]F*** them. They won't get my money
heh, i'm 95% sure that you will buy the game, cause it's gonna be great, even with the inaccuracies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-devil.gif

just my opinion on why ca is doing this, ending my part of the discussion now (i hope)

Big King Sanctaphrax

06-05-2004, 19:33

Everytime we talk about this, somebody brings up the, "yeah, but it has to appeal to the masses" arguement. And it doesn't amke any sense. I mean, ask yourself this-how is having historically accurate units going to reduce sales figures? I mean, who honestly goes, "eurgh, historical accuracy, I'm not buying that". And even if they wanted to do that, they couldn't, because they don't know any better It's the same the other way around-Do CA think anyone is actually going to go and buy this because of the historically inaccurate units? The people we're talking about wouldn't know it's historically inaccurate anyway, so why would it motivate them? The ONLY thing this can possibly acheive is to alienate their existing fan base.

Trax

06-05-2004, 19:36

Activision = evil http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-05-2004, 19:55

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ June 05 2004,13:33)]Everytime we talk about this, somebody brings up the, "yeah, but it has to appeal to the masses" arguement. And it doesn't amke any sense. I mean, ask yourself this-how is having historically accurate units going to reduce sales figures? I mean, who honestly goes, "eurgh, historical accuracy, I'm not buying that". And even if they wanted to do that, they couldn't, because they don't know any better It's the same the other way around-Do CA think anyone is actually going to go and buy this because of the historically accurate units? The people we're talking about wouldn't know it's historically inaccurate anyway, so why would it bother them? The ONLY thing this can possibly acheive is to alienate their existing fan base.
Very true. If one doesn't know about the accuracy of the game, it won't influence their buying decisions. Accordingly, having correct or wrong units is of no consequence for the uneducated buyers, but it is for educated and faithfull buyers like the guys at this forum... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

alman9898

06-05-2004, 19:57

it may be too late to re-do Egypt.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

Monk

06-05-2004, 20:06

TigerVX Wrote:

Quote[/b] ]Settle down people Hold up These are all UNIQUE units UNIQUE, MEANING ONLY FACTIONS TO HAVE THEM The greek Hoplite Phalanx will be available to all the greek factions, so will the elephants, but because they are available to all three, THEY'RE NOT POSTED. They posted all the cool unique units, they don't want us to see the Greek Phalanx in 3 different articles

i do hope you are right. But there the MC hammer spearmen and the Rameses chariot drivers are just a bit to much imho. Egypt is going to need a few unit skins edited when it's released, good thing i know how to do such a thing or i'd have to wait for somebody else to mod it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Brighdaasa wrote:

Quote[/b] ]heh, i'm 95% sure that you will buy the game, cause it's gonna be great, even with the inaccuracies

as much as i hate to admit it, you're right, partly. This game will be great, but no mater how great it will be when it's released, it will be 50 times better when the modding comunity gets a hold of it.

I can understand CA and their decision to do the units the way they do, but it just doesn't look right, and i don't think i'd be able to play Egypt unless they had some Greek units.

alman9898

06-05-2004, 20:14

well, I like historical accuracy, but (even though I like history) Im not a history buff. I still like the Egyptian units although the bitching that has taken place may taken away some of the experience of the game (knowing the innaccuracies..)

biguth dickuth

06-05-2004, 20:26

Quote[/b] (Trax @ June 05 2004,21:36)]Activision = evil http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
Not exactly.
Activision = money-craving bunch of fools

dialogue between Activision and CA executives:

"CA: So? what do you think?
Activision: What? What the hell is that? Ptolemaic faction? They have phalanxes? No chariots? Where are the Yul-Brynner, jew-killing, chariot-riding, Hollywood-safe, idiot-friendly egyptians?
CA: Ooohh You see these units were not existent during the...
Activision: We don't give a shit We want the game to be changed in order to meet our standards immediately
CA: But the historical accuracy...
Activision: We don't care for that Our market research has shown that with a game in our standards we will make about 5,6million$ while with a historicaly accurate game, only 5,4million$.
CA: But...
Activision: There is no but If you don't meet our standards, then find another publisher
Ooh come on now Besides, you'll get more money out of this too
CA: Oooh yeah, you're right Allright then We have a deal"

andrewt

06-05-2004, 21:16

It looks more and more like EA > Activision. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Spino

06-05-2004, 21:18

Where in blazes are the Nubian archers Egypt was so famous for? And 17 units but not a single Hellenic looking one in the bunch? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

There is definitely a silver lining to this dark cloud. We all know that as soon as RTW is released modders are going to bust their asses to improve this game and make it as historically accurate, relevant and balanced as possible. The Hellenic and Napoleonic Total War mods have shown us just how brilliant and dedicated our TW modding community really is.

Anyway, everyone should really check out IGN's RTW gallery. IGN has posted pics of every single Egyptian building available in the game

http://media.pc.ign.com/media/498/498739/imgs_1.html

Kaatar

06-05-2004, 21:35

Quote[/b] (Trax @ June 05 2004,05:38)]Thats it
I will not buy the game untill there is a decent mod ready, which eradicates the pharaos from the face of the earth.
And harpoons.
And pigs
And the napalm loaded catapult ammo
And the bullshit warriors
And......

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif
My thoughts exactly. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif

Leet Eriksson

06-05-2004, 22:55

http://media.pc.ign.com/media/498/498739/img_2167157.html

What is that dome doing in the picture?(the orange one)

Heck,Islamic style domes did not exist prior to 11th century AD.

http://media.pc.ign.com/media/498/498739/img_2167157.html

ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH *faints*

CA you won't win any egyptian fans,really...

http://media.pc.ign.com/media/498/498739/img_2167151.html

lateen dhows?here is hoping they actually existed before the arab invasions....

http://media.pc.ign.com/media/498/498739/img_2167124.html

GAHwhat next al Azhar mosque?

I know,egyptian scientists invented a time machine,went to medieval age egypt got interested in their architecture and brought it backI will feel uneasy playing rome total war with a faction that is some 1000 years older than mine,and has medieval islamic architecture.....

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-05-2004, 23:06

Quote[/b] (biguth dickuth @ June 05 2004,14:26)]
Quote[/b] (Trax @ June 05 2004,21:36)]Activision = evil http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
Not exactly.
Activision = money-craving bunch of fools

dialogue between Activision and CA executives:

"CA: So? what do you think?
Activision: What? What the hell is that? Ptolemaic faction? They have phalanxes? No chariots? Where are the Yul-Brynner, jew-killing, chariot-riding, Hollywood-safe, idiot-friendly egyptians?
CA: Ooohh You see these units were not existent during the...
Activision: We don't give a shit We want the game to be changed in order to meet our standards immediately
CA: But the historical accuracy...
Activision: We don't care for that Our market research has shown that with a game in our standards we will make about 5,6million$ while with a historicaly accurate game, only 5,4million$.
CA: But...
Activision: There is no but If you don't meet our standards, then find another publisher
Ooh come on now Besides, you'll get more money out of this too
CA: Oooh yeah, you're right Allright then We have a deal"
FU**ing ACTIVISION. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif What a lack of VISION http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-05-2004, 23:14

Quote[/b] (faisal @ June 05 2004,16:55)]http://media.pc.ign.com/media/498/498739/img_2167157.html

What is that dome doing in the picture?(the orange one)

Heck,Islamic style domes did not exist prior to 11th century AD.

http://media.pc.ign.com/media/498/498739/img_2167157.html

ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH *faints*

CA you won't win any egyptian fans,really...

http://media.pc.ign.com/media/498/498739/img_2167151.html

lateen dhows?here is hoping they actually existed before the arab invasions....

http://media.pc.ign.com/media/498/498739/img_2167124.html

GAHwhat next al Azhar mosque?

I know,egyptian scientists invented a time machine,went to medieval age egypt got interested in their architecture and brought it backI will feel uneasy playing rome total war with a faction that is some 1000 years older than mine,and has medieval islamic architecture.....
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif

We were hoping for an improved Egyptian faction of Hellenic culture. Instead we have an even worse depiction of that era in Egypt http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

Activision's blasphemers should ALL be http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif in the Colosseum... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking.gif NO Why piss of gladiators killling them? Let's use the lions instead... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-devilish.gif

Kongamato

06-05-2004, 23:18

The producers are lucky most of these cultures are dead, because if they were not, there'd be anti-defamation leagues lined up at the door demanding fair representation. If the Romans ever had the chance to make wartime movies, I'd bet the appearance and demeanor of the outside factions would be similar to what we're seeing here.

alman9898

06-06-2004, 00:08

I guess it was a bad idea for ign to release so many units... it's really ticking off everyone here -- to the brink http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

The_Emperor

06-06-2004, 00:27

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif Send them all down

I hope they all die under Selucid War Elephants http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Looks like The Egyptian faction is going to be the most hated in Rome...

scooter_the_shooter

06-06-2004, 01:22

well you have to admit this quite funny http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif when that smiley come i like it

RisingSun

06-06-2004, 02:03

To whoever said "You will all buy it" - Don't be so sure. When they first released things about this game, I was sure I would. "Nothing could stop me." I would say. I overestimated my devotion.

It's disgusting, what has happened. CA has created a work of art, a piece of beauty. And then they shit all over it like a sick geriatric cat.

I am seriously contemplating making another "I will not buy RTW thread." Except this time it's not becuase VI isn't patched, it's because looking at some of the RTW units and/or buildings makes me vomit all over my monitor.

If I was going to do it, though, I should have done it months ago. It is too late to help this game now. But I refrained, because we had promises from CA- "There will be a good helping of accurate units." They said. They lied. That is now clear.

I can't do anything but be saddened by this beautiful artistic vision they have ruined.

First, it was only little things that I could care less about. "He shouldn't have lorica segmentata yet..." Then slowly, things got worse as we began to see the Egyptian units. The Iberian Bull Warriors made me think "Is it an April Fool's joke?"

And then when they announced the stupidest thing I have ever heard a developer say- no lie- that we would have to play the Romans first, my hope took a dramatic hit.

My glimmer of faith is down for the count. Don't let it die, CA. Don't let it die.

scooter_the_shooter

06-06-2004, 02:10

dont forget our good friends the modders they will give this game ALOT of tweaking. in fact they make a whole new game altogether. mayby one clos to that vision of yours. have hope.

Monk

06-06-2004, 02:22

Quote[/b] (ceasar010 @ June 05 2004,21:10)]dont forget our good friends the modders they will give this game ALOT of tweaking. in fact they make a whole new game altogether. mayby one clos to that vision of yours. have hope.
I think the more important question is not "Will the modders be able to make a historical mod?" but rather, "Will they even bother to clean up all the crap ca has thrown in for no good reason?"

And yes i do mean "clean up" because Egypt is a mess.

scooter_the_shooter

06-06-2004, 02:25

why not i modded my mtw to make it the way i wanted and alot of da modders like historical acuracy so they will probably do that and alot of em like to put there best work up for downloading too there are many mods http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif

Monk

06-06-2004, 02:26

I said that because Egypt isn't the only faction in need of an overhaul by the way things look, need we forget the "barbarians"?

alman9898

06-06-2004, 02:36

I'll still buy the game, heck, I like some of the units although Id prefer a bit of historical accuracy so people don't think that egypt during roman times was in the pharonic age

Aelwyn

06-06-2004, 03:51

The game isn't historical WOO HOO Whooptie Doo http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

dessa14

06-06-2004, 11:27

Who cares about historical inaccuracy.
gameplay is most important
if you want historic accuracy, mod it.
thanks, dessa

biguth dickuth

06-06-2004, 11:54

Quote[/b] (dessa14 @ June 06 2004,13:27)]Who cares about historical inaccuracy.
gameplay is most important
if you want historic accuracy, mod it.
thanks, dessa
There are people who care about it
I care about it and so do many others in these forums.
There are also many people outside the "fan clubs" who would be interested in a historicaly accurate game.

You should know that in most cases a "metron" (aka a situation which combines opposing characteristics in a harmonical way) is most usefull.
I could accept CA to sacrifise a little of historical accuracy for gameplay's sake, when it's quite neccessary, but i can't accept the monstrocities that have been announced so far.

Like Rising Sun said, they seem to be turning a work of art of a game into Hollywood crap.

spmetla

06-06-2004, 12:06

I didn't mind them making naked barbarians and gauls despite how off that was but at the same time fighting naked was a very germanic and celtic thing to go a lack of fear.
I was a bit pissed at the gladiators but at the same time realized they were there for Spartacus's army and that at least has some historical context.
A few fantasy units such as the bull warrior and cilian pirates are ok with me, they add a bit of "flavor" as long as they are uncommon despite the inaccuracies.

But it's when an entire faction is fictionous that it really gets to me. These are the wrong eqyptians, greek egyptians could have been done, they could have just made them look a bit more *egyptian* but instead they totally ignore the greek influence despite they're naming it in the introduction.

And as for those of you that say oh well, just mod the game it will be fine then bear in mind that everyone needs the same mod in order to play together online so having an entirely F*cked up faction means that in order to have at least semi historically correct battles online with the Ptolmetic faction will be uncommon at best.

The_Emperor

06-06-2004, 12:47

As I say Egypt will beccome the most unplayed faction in RTW... I bet any money on it.

Ellesthyan

06-06-2004, 13:06

If no one will do it earlier, I'll mod a "Ptolomaic Mod" as soon as I've got my hands on RTW, using the Seleucid Empire and Carthage for the unit bifs. They better make it possible...

The Blind King of Bohemia

06-06-2004, 13:19

I'll play as Egypt, i just couldn't give a shit. I just want to play it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

crazyviking03

06-06-2004, 13:31

I'll drink to that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

scooter_the_shooter

06-06-2004, 13:45

me too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

Knight_Yellow

06-06-2004, 16:32

Quote[/b] (Mr Durian @ June 05 2004,12:49)]98% of the people who will play RTW will not care that much about historical accuracy. And having 3 factions that use phalanx troops is gonna make the game dull. I rather prefer more variety in gameplay.
My point exactly.

Id would much rather see a "classical" Egyptian faction than another freaking greek country that uses those bloody phalanxes again.

Variety is the spice of life.
Gameplay > Realism

etc...

"I think the more important question is not "Will the modders be able to make a historical mod?" but rather, "Will they even bother to clean up all the crap ca has thrown in for no good reason?""

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

selling copies isnt a good reason?

the way to sell more copies is not to be anal about historical accuracy but to add the cool factor.

so you dont like that? woop dee dooo, 99% of people who buy RTW wont care.

Besides the fact that any of you history whores can even look at any TW game boggles my mind, In real life no nation in the medieval period could ever have conquered the entire landmass of europe, not to mention the fact that you get to control every single unit and issue pin point orders to them wich was impossible.

Basileus

06-06-2004, 16:43

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ June 06 2004,10:32)]
Quote[/b] (Mr Durian @ June 05 2004,12:49)]98% of the people who will play RTW will not care that much about historical accuracy. And having 3 factions that use phalanx troops is gonna make the game dull. I rather prefer more variety in gameplay.
My point exactly.

Id would much rather see a "classical" Egyptian faction than another freaking greek country that uses those bloody phalanxes again.

Variety is the spice of life.
Gameplay > Realism

etc...

"I think the more important question is not "Will the modders be able to make a historical mod?" but rather, "Will they even bother to clean up all the crap ca has thrown in for no good reason?""

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

selling copies isnt a good reason?

the way to sell more copies is not to be anal about historical accuracy but to add the cool factor.

so you dont like that? woop dee dooo, 99% of people who buy RTW wont care.

Besides the fact that any of you history whores can even look at any TW game boggles my mind, In real life no nation in the medieval period could ever have conquered the entire landmass of europe, not to mention the fact that you get to control every single unit and issue pin point orders to them wich was impossible.
i would love to see what you would think say egypt was scotland and the scots looked like indians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Trax

06-06-2004, 16:51

Quote[/b] ]
Besides the fact that any of you history whores can even look at any TW game boggles my mind, In real life no nation in the medieval period could ever have conquered the entire landmass of europe, not to mention the fact that you get to control every single unit and issue pin point orders to them wich was impossible.

For this very reason I have never even attempted to finish a total conquest game in Medieval nor will I ever do. I usually play GA and stick to my homelands or play 20-40 turns and quit.

biguth dickuth

06-06-2004, 16:57

Quote[/b] (Basileus @ June 06 2004,18:43)]
Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ June 06 2004,10:32)]
Quote[/b] (Mr Durian @ June 05 2004,12:49)]98% of the people who will play RTW will not care that much about historical accuracy. And having 3 factions that use phalanx troops is gonna make the game dull. I rather prefer more variety in gameplay.
My point exactly.

Id would much rather see a "classical" Egyptian faction than another freaking greek country that uses those bloody phalanxes again.

Variety is the spice of life.
Gameplay > Realism

etc...

"I think the more important question is not "Will the modders be able to make a historical mod?" but rather, "Will they even bother to clean up all the crap ca has thrown in for no good reason?""

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

selling copies isnt a good reason?

the way to sell more copies is not to be anal about historical accuracy but to add the cool factor.

so you dont like that? woop dee dooo, 99% of people who buy RTW wont care.

Besides the fact that any of you history whores can even look at any TW game boggles my mind, In real life no nation in the medieval period could ever have conquered the entire landmass of europe, not to mention the fact that you get to control every single unit and issue pin point orders to them wich was impossible.
i would love to see what you would think say egypt was scotland and the scots looked like indians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Exactly
Imagine the Scots charging down at the English at Stirling Bridge while riding chariots and being half-naked and painted with woad-paint, like the Britons and the Caledonians who lived in this land before them.
Wouldn't that be ridiculous?

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-06-2004, 17:07

Quote[/b] (RisingSun @ June 05 2004,20:03)]To whoever said "You will all buy it" - Don't be so sure. When they first released things about this game, I was sure I would. "Nothing could stop me." I would say. I overestimated my devotion.
Preciselly my point. Wise, although painfull, words. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sad.gif

Quote[/b] ]My glimmer of faith is down for the count. Don't let it die, CA. Don't let it die.
We could only hope. That won't happen, my friend... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif

biguth dickuth

06-06-2004, 17:09

There is something that may also help you realise how ridiculus the use of the New Kingdom egyptians is.

Just imagine that they replace the "greek cities" faction with mycenean greeks, full with heavily armoured noblemen riding chariots, unarmoured infantry with spears and huge 8-shaped shields and even unique, elite units like myrmidons
They could also have generals like Achilles and Agamemnon http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Now, some may find that soooo very coool but won't it be a real mockery?

They did just the same with the egyptian faction.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-06-2004, 17:16

Quote[/b] (Monk @ June 05 2004,20:22)]
Quote[/b] (ceasar010 @ June 05 2004,21:10)]dont forget our good friends the modders they will give this game ALOT of tweaking. in fact they make a whole new game altogether. mayby one clos to that vision of yours. have hope.
I think the more important question is not "Will the modders be able to make a historical mod?" but rather, "Will they even bother to clean up all the crap ca has thrown in for no good reason?"

And yes i do mean "clean up" because Egypt is a mess.
Very good point. Why bother? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

For WesW's MOD, MTW needed a lot of modifications and that takes massive amounts of time. For RTW it will be even worse, because this concerns the entire modification of a single faction. Unheard off http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-lost.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-06-2004, 17:22

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ June 06 2004,10:32)]"I think the more important question is not "Will the modders be able to make a historical mod?" but rather, "Will they even bother to clean up all the crap ca has thrown in for no good reason?""

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

selling copies isnt a good reason?

the way to sell more copies is not to be anal about historical accuracy but to add the cool factor.
Have you been hearing what other people said in these last couple of days? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif

Cool factor? Who said that Historical Accuracy = boring?

You say:

Gameplay > Realism

Who says they are incompatible? They are not. In fact:

Realism + Gameplay = better game

No realism = worse gameplay = worse game

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-06-2004, 17:24

Quote[/b] (Basileus @ June 06 2004,10:43)]
Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ June 06 2004,10:32)]
Quote[/b] (Mr Durian @ June 05 2004,12:49)]98% of the people who will play RTW will not care that much about historical accuracy. And having 3 factions that use phalanx troops is gonna make the game dull. I rather prefer more variety in gameplay.
My point exactly.

Id would much rather see a "classical" Egyptian faction than another freaking greek country that uses those bloody phalanxes again.

Variety is the spice of life.
Gameplay > Realism

etc...

"I think the more important question is not "Will the modders be able to make a historical mod?" but rather, "Will they even bother to clean up all the crap ca has thrown in for no good reason?""

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

selling copies isnt a good reason?

the way to sell more copies is not to be anal about historical accuracy but to add the cool factor.

so you dont like that? woop dee dooo, 99% of people who buy RTW wont care.

Besides the fact that any of you history whores can even look at any TW game boggles my mind, In real life no nation in the medieval period could ever have conquered the entire landmass of europe, not to mention the fact that you get to control every single unit and issue pin point orders to them wich was impossible.
i would love to see what you would think say egypt was scotland and the scots looked like indians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif Great answer... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

The Blind King of Bohemia

06-06-2004, 17:27

It won't take that long to mod a single faction. CA is probably hearing this but if they do something about it is another question http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-06-2004, 17:33

Quote[/b] (The Blind King of Bohemia @ June 06 2004,11:27)]It won't take that long to mod a single faction. CA is probably hearing this but if they do something about it is another question http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
You forget that it is the ENTIRE faction (3d units, buildings, stats, etc...). MedMOD didn't even needed new BIFs for units...

Besides the rework of the rest of the "Barbarian" factions, (3d units, buildings, stats etc...).

Aelwyn

06-06-2004, 17:37

Very well then. Think of it as a challenge. I look forward to seeing a more historical mod. Then we'll see whats more fun. Until then, its all speculation, so why bother discussing it. The only time anything will be solved is when theres proof to back up a claim like the game is better one way or another.

I'm not taking sides...if you can make a better game I'll play it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

The Blind King of Bohemia

06-06-2004, 17:41

It depends on how much we can mod the game and how it has progressed, which is obviously upwards. Lets hope modding and such is made much easier, so fans of the more historical side of things can change things at a whim http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-06-2004, 17:48

Quote[/b] (The Blind King of Bohemia @ June 06 2004,11:41)]It depends on how much we can mod the game and how it has progressed, which is obviously upwards. Lets hope modding and such is made much easier, so fans of the more historical side of things can change things at a whim http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
That was preciselly what I've refered in a previous post. CA said that Egypt would be "improved" and then this sh** happens. Who's to say that the promissed "improved" modability of the game isn't a desert mirage? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

andrewt

06-06-2004, 18:46

Any of you guys remember Mortal Kombat 3? Midway wanted to appeal to a more mass market, younger audience. They wanted to sell to people who were put off by the violence in MK 1 and 2 or whose parents didn't want to buy those games for their kids.

They made the game less dark and made the violence more humorous and slapstick. They added babalities and friendships. They added dial-a-combos such as those found in the Tekken games. They added joke characters and joke special moves. They made many of the fatalities weird and Saturday morning cartoon-like instead of the darker ones.

They also increased the number of playable characters and the variety of characters that were in the game. However, the game was easily the worst of the series and turned the franchise into a joke. It was only when they went back to the basics that made the franchise successful in the first place that the franchise became respected again. Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance was successful because it went with what made Mortal Kombat 1 and 2 successful instead of the mass market crap of Mortal Kombat 3.

Why is this relevant? Because it seems like CA is doing the same thing with RTW. Take away the graphics and it seems more and more like a dumbed down version of MTW, instead of taking the gameplay to another level.

ah_dut

06-06-2004, 18:58

I think we'll have to put our entire TW mod community into 100 years of servitude to make this historically accurate. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-06-2004, 19:14

Quote[/b] (andrewt @ June 06 2004,12:46)]Any of you guys remember Mortal Kombat 3? Midway wanted to appeal to a more mass market, younger audience. They wanted to sell to people who were put off by the violence in MK 1 and 2 or whose parents didn't want to buy those games for their kids.

They made the game less dark and made the violence more humorous and slapstick. They added babalities and friendships. They added dial-a-combos such as those found in the Tekken games. They added joke characters and joke special moves. They made many of the fatalities weird and Saturday morning cartoon-like instead of the darker ones.

They also increased the number of playable characters and the variety of characters that were in the game. However, the game was easily the worst of the series and turned the franchise into a joke. It was only when they went back to the basics that made the franchise successful in the first place that the franchise became respected again. Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance was successful because it went with what made Mortal Kombat 1 and 2 successful instead of the mass market crap of Mortal Kombat 3.

Why is this relevant? Because it seems like CA is doing the same thing with RTW. Take away the graphics and it seems more and more like a dumbed down version of MTW, instead of taking the gameplay to another level.
A good example and well explained.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-06-2004, 19:16

Quote[/b] (ah_dut @ June 06 2004,12:58)]I think we'll have to put our entire TW mod community into 100 years of servitude to make this historically accurate. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif
Therefore the question:

Why bother?

Steppe Merc

06-07-2004, 01:42

Wow. I agree completly, since I have been a long supportor of historical accuracy, and have been always pissed at the 'babarians'. But the Egyptians... ouch.
The forum about the same topic at the .com is far sadder, with a lot of pro- stupid, non-hisorical units running about. I guess it means the org is more inlightened, or just that they can't go to anti- CA at the .com.
Aymar de Bois Mauri: even though the game is looking quite sad, I trust the modders will change it, and just the campaign aspect is worth it enough. Don't give up quite yet.
But after all these atrocities, I definetly need a hug.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-07-2004, 01:58

Quote[/b] (Steppe Merc @ June 06 2004,19:42)]Wow. I agree completly, since I have been a long supportor of historical accuracy, and have been always pissed at the 'babarians'. But the Egyptians... ouch.
Yeap. Disapointment isn't word enough... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif

Quote[/b] ]The forum about the same topic at the .com is far sadder, with a lot of pro- stupid, non-hisorical units running about. I guess it means the org is more inlightened, or just that they can't go to anti- CA at the .com.
Yes, and only sligtly better views in TWC and SI. Some are just dumb kids, others are those that trive for a Fantasy: Total War.

Quote[/b] ]Aymar de Bois Mauri: even though the game is looking quite sad, I trust the modders will change it, and just the campaign aspect is worth it enough. Don't give up quite yet.
I'm trying to hold, but it's getting harder every week. The only way for me to be sure of buying the game, would rest on something like a the decision of the ORG's modders (me included) to form an alliance to completelly revamp the game.

Quote[/b] ]But after all these atrocities, I definetly need a hug.
You're right. Atrocities IS the word.

Rosacrux

06-07-2004, 07:31

Oh, goodness... I knew (we all knew) what a bunch of crap we'll get out of this... but that beats every (negative) expectation: CA Frankenstein Workshop of the Freaks managed to outrage every single TW fan who hasn't shit for brains.

That is grandeur achievement and one that other gaming companies had to work for ages to make it... but CA's got the knack for it, seems so.

BTW these words (by our dear RisingSun) sum it up for me:

Quote[/b] ]CA has created a work of art, a piece of beauty. And then they shit all over it like a sick geriatric cat
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

muffinman14

06-07-2004, 08:11

I guess I have no shit for brains. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

dessa14

06-07-2004, 11:48

you can't blame CA for doing what they think is right.

of course you can blame the marketing department
which by the way has a brain the size of a gabanzo bean combined between them, like any marketing department.

the developers and writers and such are just doing what they are told by focus groups and such put together by that marketing department.

shogun was easily the best TW ever in relation to historical accuracy. each unit was generic like they are in real life, but in medieval they added special units which were not generic and sounded dumb.

you have to sacrifice things for a more interesting game.
i find it stupid how people will never go past the empire that, that country which they play went to in real history.
it's a game, not a history textbook.

thanks, dessa

Trax

06-07-2004, 13:11

Current results of the TWC vote. Even the "historically challanged" members over there seems to want at least some greek units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

Quote[/b] ]How should CA depict the Egyptian faction?

Accurate Ptolemaic Empire [ 26 ] [37.14%]
Ptolemies, but a possibility to build some anachronistic units.[ 12 ] [17.14%]
The New Kingdom with a few Greek style units. [ 17 ] [24.29%]
Accurate New Kingdom Egyptians. [ 6 ] [8.57%]
Hollywood Egyptians and medieval architecture.[ 9 ][12.86%]
Total Votes: 70

Rosacrux

06-07-2004, 13:50

Seems like 12% of the comers are alrighty with the prollywood style RTW Egyptians... the 53%+ that wishes historically accurate Ptolemaic Egyptians is astounding, knowing this is a .com poll http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Dessa, we are going to buy this game, we bought the previous CA games, we LOVE the TW series, so YES we bloody can blame them. Because they are throwing the potentially best Strategy Game of all ages into the frigging garbage bin, with all the freakywood crap they have inserted into it to make it more appealing to the mentally challenged (read: retard) out there.

How many mentally challenged (read: retards) buy computer games, ferchristsake? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif And if they do, they'll stick to DoomIII http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Boohugh

06-07-2004, 14:08

I play computer games because they are fun. M:TW is currently the best tactical/strategic warfare game around; that is why I play it.

I don't, therefore, want to play a game that has three almost identical factions just because that would be more historically accurate, because that makes for a boring game. There would be no variety in the gameplay.

People say that the Egyptians will become the least played game online because of these "fantasy" units. I disagree, because lots of people will enjoy fighting with these units just because they offer something different.

The fact is, most people either don't know or don't care about historical accuracy, they just want a fun game. From what I have read on these boards, a historically accurate game would have lots of similar units, which doesn't make for a particularly fun game.

If I want to know about historically accurate troops, I will go to the library and read about them in a book. If I want to play a game that recreates warfare and is fun and has variety, I will play R:TW.

Trax

06-07-2004, 14:41

Well, I simply can´t have fun, when I, while playing as the Seleucids can´t reenact few Raphias against my archenemies the Ptolemies, CA has taken this chance from me, and I´m pissed.

To have fun I must at least for a moment be able to believe that I am an ancient general on an ancient battlefield. The Egyptians take this fun away from me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

Rosacrux

06-07-2004, 14:53

LordHugh

You know something? You are right In our struggle and anxiety for some level of historical accuracy, we overlook one crucial thing: The Coolness factor. You know, having all these boring guys with the long sticks, the other boring armored riding guys, the other boring dark bowmen guys, you know this is not Cool enough. We need a Cool game, don't we know?

Alrighty, since it's all about Coolness, I'll offer my 2 cents as for a cool unit lineup:

My suggestions will be listed faction-wise:

Gauls

Rabid idefixes
Hordes of wild Idefixes, munching on all the enemies, and alternatively pissing on them (if this reminds CA behaviour towards us... nah, it's just a passing resemblance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

Menir-throwing Obelix
Double-Role unit. Will carry one missile (menir, so the blow will be rather devastating) and then will charge into the enemies. Very effective against Romans. Also, can counter flaming pigs.

Panoramix druids
Oh... oops, they got this one already http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Ptolemaic Egypt

Mummies
That's cool men, that's cooler than cool Mummies Thousands of them Yeah, cool

Anubis charioteer
Can you imagine how cool a dog-faced Egyptian on a chariot will look like? Cooool

Greek factions

Hercules on Steroids
Model it after Arnold Swarzernegger (including the accent too) and you got a real hit... Cool as the frigging north pole, man

Xena, homo princess
Cool, yeah Will attract the homosexuals too, cool and a great marketing move

Thundering Zeus
When things get tough, those buggers shall throw thounders on their enemies... Cool unit

Roman factions

Bigus Dickus
Rome’s enemies shall tremble before those guys They are just too cool to be stopped, with their uber-schwanzstuck attack

Incontinentia Buttocks
Special Roman unit, used to demoralize the enemies… very effective under certain circumstances.

Germanic Factions

SS Sturmtruppen
What? They don’t belong to the RTW timeframe? So what, they are only marginally more far away from it than the New Kingdom. Besides, they are COOL

Panther Panzer
The perfect weapon to counter those bloody Carthagenian elephants And it’s soooo cool

…there are more cool units, we could use Pikachu too, and some Transformers and Uh-goh-whatever, and some Warhammer 40K stuff, and why not some Starcraft units (oh, those were sooooo cooool) and this is going to be such a COOOOL game

Boohugh

06-07-2004, 14:53

Trax, I understand that, but unfortunately for you, most people don't have this problem because, as I said, they either don't know or don't care about historical accuracy.

I admit, if CA could make a historically accurate fun game for the majority, that would be best, but in this case I don't think it is possible.

Luckily for you there is a dedicated community of modders who hopefully can make the sort of game you want, but as you are in the minority in terms of not being able to
Quote[/b] ]have fun, when I, while playing as the Seleucids can´t reenact few Raphias against my archenemies the Ptolemies

Your wishes must be balanced against the majority of people who will play this game who don't have this problem.

Trax

06-07-2004, 15:54

What really pisses me off is this, they lied to us and we believed like fools.

Quote[/b] ]
The tech tree and unit list are still undergoing revision, but there are entries there for historically accurate Egyptian Hoplites and Numidian Legionaries at the moment, alongside the classical troop types for those factions. So it *is* a mix, not just one way or the other We're not going entirely off the historial track, not to worry. It's just that the Egyptian stereotype is so deeply embedded in popular western culture that the powers that be felt obliged to go this way.

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....ccurate (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=19;t=11918;hl=egyptians+greek+units+accurate)

Boohugh

06-07-2004, 16:17

Rosacrux,

I didn't say the units had to be cool, I just said that they should provide a good, fun army to play with. As most people don't know or don't care about historical accuracy, they don't mind having Egyptian chariots.

Obviously it mustn't get out of hand, but CA are allowed a little creative license. Ok, so maybe there was no such thing as Iberian Bull Warriors, but I'm sure they had swordsman that did the same thing, even if they didn't look the same. Yes, the Egyptian chariots are about 1000 years out of date, but they did exist, and if they add to the gameplay experience for most people, why does it matter so much.

CA have at least taken historical examples for their units types, even if the exact look isn't entirely accurate, or they are slightly out of the timeframe.

I do, however, admit that some of the units are a little suspect, the wailing women and the druids, for example.

Trax,

We don't know that they have lied to us yet. The list of units on the IGN website isn't necessarily the complete units list, and some of the units can be called greek ones, just by a different name (e.g. the Pharaoh's Guards). They may not look entirely realistic, but it seems they will do the same thing (form phalanx, etc).

Trax

06-07-2004, 16:29

I don´t know, the Nile cavalry sounds exactly like cleruchs did in the old unit description. If they decided to get rid of the only Greek unit they had already shown to the fans, then I don´t think we have much hope left anymore http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flat.gif

Leet Eriksson

06-07-2004, 16:51

Quote[/b] ]Ptolemaic Egypt

Mummies
That's cool men, that's cooler than cool Mummies Thousands of them Yeah, cool

Not only that,but when they kill other soldiers undead minions rise from their corpses to aid them,wich is an uber unit that can grow as it kills others http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Spino

06-07-2004, 16:55

Quote[/b] (Trax @ June 07 2004,11:29)]I don´t know, the Nile cavalry sounds exactly like cleruchs did in the old unit description. If they decided to get rid of the only Greek unit they had already shown to the fans, then I don´t think we have much hope left anymore http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flat.gif
As I recall the Cleruch unit posted several months ago did not even look remotely Hellenized. It was simply another Old Kingdom style unit, albeit with an historically accurate description.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-07-2004, 16:56

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ June 07 2004,01:31)]Oh, goodness... I knew (we all knew) what a bunch of crap we'll get out of this... but that beats every (negative) expectation: CA Frankenstein Workshop of the Freaks managed to outrage every single TW fan who hasn't shit for brains.

That is grandeur achievement and one that other gaming companies had to work for ages to make it... but CA's got the knack for it, seems so.

BTW these words (by our dear RisingSun) sum it up for me:

Quote[/b] ]CA has created a work of art, a piece of beauty. And then they shit all over it like a sick geriatric cat
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

I'll have to drown my sorrows... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif ...and still it won't solve anything http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-07-2004, 17:04

Quote[/b] (dessa14 @ June 07 2004,05:48)]of course you can blame the marketing department
which by the way has a brain the size of a gabanzo bean combined between them, like any marketing department.
Good description.

Quote[/b] ]the developers and writers and such are just doing what they are told by focus groups and such put together by that marketing department.

shogun was easily the best TW ever in relation to historical accuracy. each unit was generic like they are in real life, but in medieval they added special units which were not generic and sounded dumb.
Yes. True. But wy does the plan to increase sales is associated with an increase in dumb content? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif Makes no sense whatsoever http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-07-2004, 17:06

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ June 07 2004,07:50)]Seems like 12% of the comers are alrighty with the prollywood style RTW Egyptians... the 53%+ that wishes historically accurate Ptolemaic Egyptians is astounding, knowing this is a .com poll http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Dessa, we are going to buy this game, we bought the previous CA games, we LOVE the TW series, so YES we bloody can blame them. Because they are throwing the potentially best Strategy Game of all ages into the frigging garbage bin, with all the freakywood crap they have inserted into it to make it more appealing to the mentally challenged (read: retard) out there.

How many mentally challenged (read: retards) buy computer games, ferchristsake? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif And if they do, they'll stick to DoomIII http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-07-2004, 17:09

Quote[/b] (Trax @ June 07 2004,08:41)]Well, I simply can´t have fun, when I, while playing as the Seleucids can´t reenact few Raphias against my archenemies the Ptolemies, CA has taken this chance from me, and I´m pissed.

To have fun I must at least for a moment be able to believe that I am an ancient general on an ancient battlefield. The Egyptians take this fun away from me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif
Preciselly. Imersion in History is what these games (TW) are all about. Not doing it correctelly makes it loose all the right feeling. Just compare it to Shogun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-speechless.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-07-2004, 17:13

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ June 07 2004,08:53)]LordHugh

You know something? You are right In our struggle and anxiety for some level of historical accuracy, we overlook one crucial thing: The Coolness factor. You know, having all these boring guys with the long sticks, the other boring armored riding guys, the other boring dark bowmen guys, you know this is not Cool enough. We need a Cool game, don't we know?

Alrighty, since it's all about Coolness, I'll offer my 2 cents as for a cool unit lineup:

My suggestions will be listed faction-wise:

Gauls

Rabid idefixes
Hordes of wild Idefixes, munching on all the enemies, and alternatively pissing on them (if this reminds CA behaviour towards us... nah, it's just a passing resemblance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

Menir-throwing Obelix
Double-Role unit. Will carry one missile (menir, so the blow will be rather devastating) and then will charge into the enemies. Very effective against Romans. Also, can counter flaming pigs.

Panoramix druids
Oh... oops, they got this one already http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Ptolemaic Egypt

Mummies
That's cool men, that's cooler than cool Mummies Thousands of them Yeah, cool

Anubis charioteer
Can you imagine how cool a dog-faced Egyptian on a chariot will look like? Cooool

Greek factions

Hercules on Steroids
Model it after Arnold Swarzernegger (including the accent too) and you got a real hit... Cool as the frigging north pole, man

Xena, homo princess
Cool, yeah Will attract the homosexuals too, cool and a great marketing move

Thundering Zeus
When things get tough, those buggers shall throw thounders on their enemies... Cool unit

Roman factions

Bigus Dickus
Rome’s enemies shall tremble before those guys They are just too cool to be stopped, with their uber-schwanzstuck attack

Incontinentia Buttocks
Special Roman unit, used to demoralize the enemies… very effective under certain circumstances.

Germanic Factions

SS Sturmtruppen
What? They don’t belong to the RTW timeframe? So what, they are only marginally more far away from it than the New Kingdom. Besides, they are COOL

Panther Panzer
The perfect weapon to counter those bloody Carthagenian elephants And it’s soooo cool

…there are more cool units, we could use Pikachu too, and some Transformers and Uh-goh-whatever, and some Warhammer 40K stuff, and why not some Starcraft units (oh, those were sooooo cooool) and this is going to be such a COOOOL game
This should keep these ACTIVISION sh**heads with their brains hurting. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-07-2004, 17:16

Quote[/b] (Trax @ June 07 2004,09:54)]What really pisses me off is this, they lied to us and we believed like fools.

Quote[/b] ]
The tech tree and unit list are still undergoing revision, but there are entries there for historically accurate Egyptian Hoplites and Numidian Legionaries at the moment, alongside the classical troop types for those factions. So it *is* a mix, not just one way or the other We're not going entirely off the historial track, not to worry. It's just that the Egyptian stereotype is so deeply embedded in popular western culture that the powers that be felt obliged to go this way.

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....ccurate (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=19;t=11918;hl=egyptians+greek+units+accurate)
They did and we give them more credit than they deserve http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-07-2004, 17:22

Quote[/b] (LordHugh @ June 07 2004,10:17)]I didn't say the units had to be cool, I just said that they should provide a good, fun army to play with. As most people don't know or don't care about historical accuracy, they don't mind having Egyptian chariots.

Obviously it mustn't get out of hand, but CA are allowed a little creative license. Ok, so maybe there was no such thing as Iberian Bull Warriors, but I'm sure they had swordsman that did the same thing, even if they didn't look the same. Yes, the Egyptian chariots are about 1000 years out of date, but they did exist, and if they add to the gameplay experience for most people, why does it matter so much.
My friend, even if the Pharaonic Egypt was correctly depicted (which is not), it has a span of time of 1000 years from the RTW era. It's the same as putting a platoon of M1 Abrahams fighting against the Norman Knights of William the Conqueror.

Torquemada would be pleased with the following words:

Burn them all (Activision and CA) at the stake http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

The_Emperor

06-07-2004, 18:32

CA has let themselves go... its a crying shame. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Aelwyn

06-07-2004, 19:24

Personally I'm glad its not historically accurate. I think its kinda funny to see people shitting their pants over stuff like that. So the more you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif the harder I laugh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif . But seriously, its their product, they have the right to do whatever they want with it. And, you have the right to buy it or not buy it, and then change whatever you want in it. Its simple.

Schrodinger's Cat

06-07-2004, 19:35

First of all, I'm somewhat disappointed with the Egyptians, but I'll probably get over it. Most of what I know about the period is stuff I've read on here. The worst part for me is that the units look so silly.
I understand how some of you feel, but in defense of CA and Activision, they're in this for the money. A lot of you are calling the marketing department idiots (and worse), but I don't see how you can say this without evidence. Presumably Activision employs well-trained and well-paid people to inform them of market trends. Hard as it may be for you to believe that some people hear "Egypt" and think "Pharoah", the marketing department is better equipped to find out than you.
Also, CA know that most of their fans, the people who are more likely to be concerned about historical accuracy, will have access to the modding community, and thus will probably buy there game and mod it to suit their tastes. On the other hand, they are trying to expand there market, and they believe that new customers are more likely to pick up a box and say "Cooool, elephants. Ooooohhhh, flaming pigs. Wooowww, ancient egyptians with funny hats," than "Oh my God, can I truly believe my eyes? Is that egyptian army really a completely historically accurate combination of greek troops?"

On the plus side, CA have said they will make it moddable, and it really is in their interests to make it as moddable as possible. At the very least, it should be possible to delete all the offending Pharonic troops and make the Greek troops available to Egypt. That should take 5 minutes tops in MTW, and it shouldn't be any harder in RTW. Also, the troops don't seem that different from real life native Egyptian conscript type troops, except for the names, descriptions and graphics. Names and descriptions shouldn't be too hard to change, and with rumours of a unit dresser, the graphics might be easy too.

So don't get too down yet, it might be better than you think http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

Schrodie's Cat

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-07-2004, 19:36

Quote[/b] (Aelwyn @ June 07 2004,13:24)]I think its kinda funny to see people shitting their pants over stuff like that. So the more you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif the harder I laugh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif .
So, you entertain yourself with other people's greef? How correct of you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif

Quote[/b] ] But seriously, its their product, they have the right to do whatever they want with it.
Sure they have. But they have no right to lie.

Quote[/b] ]And, you have the right to buy it or not buy it, and then change whatever you want in it.
Yeap. And to waste months to get it right.

Aelwyn

06-07-2004, 20:51

I said that to get a few people riled up. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif Honestly it could be worse. The thing that looks wrong to me are the hat things. But other than that, meh. And they can lie, companies do it all the time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Doesn't mean its right, but they can still do it. Honestly, it might not be as bad as you all think. Lets just wait for the game to come out and see.

andrewt

06-07-2004, 21:02

I wouldn't blame this on the marketing department only. What they do is gather marketing data and help market the product. They probably gathered marketing data for both the current market for MTW and the mass market. While they gather the data, they're usually not the ones who make the decisions on them.

It's usually executives and the higher level managers who look into the data and decide whether they wish to cater more to the current market and people like it or to the mass market. The sad truth about the entertainment industry (movies, music, TV, games, etc.) is that these senior executives are usually old, white guys around retirement age who are out of touch with the current reality. The senior executives and managers who made the decision to target RTW to the mass market most likely either have never played a single game in their life, play some games sparingly just to try them out or have stopped playing games after Pong. They most likely don't know how many different types of gamers there are and believe that most will like the same game. What you get is the mistaken belief that marketing to the lowest common denominator will generate the most profits.

This is usually what happens. Low and middle level managers make some games, movies etc. Since many of these are new, they don't get the attention of senior management. However, once some of these become hits, they start to get recognized by senior management. Increasingly, senior management start making the decisions for them. Most of the time they will want to increase the customer base by moving it more to the mass market. The sad part is that since senior management are more isolated from the customers and understand them less, these initiatives fail.

It's the reason why movie sequels are very rarely as good as the original. In the games industry, it's the reason some franchises like XCom disappear completely. It was a successful niche product until senior management decided to use the license to create a mass market shooter. Can you say, utter failure? It's the reason why Final Fantasy 7 is considered by many the best in the series. It's the first game in the series to appeal to a huge market and every subsequent game was designed more for the mass market compared to the previous ones.

The track record for the mass market transition is abyssmal. More often than not, companies lose more of their initial market than they gain on the mass market. Usually, games in franchises are bought based on how good the previous game was so the effects of the mass market crap is mostly felt on the game after the transition to targeting the mass market.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-07-2004, 22:13

Quote[/b] (Aelwyn @ June 07 2004,14:51)]I said that to get a few people riled up. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif Honestly it could be worse. The thing that looks wrong to me are the hat things. But other than that, meh. And they can lie, companies do it all the time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Doesn't mean its right, but they can still do it. Honestly, it might not be as bad as you all think. Lets just wait for the game to come out and see.
I wish you're right. Really.

RisingSun

06-07-2004, 22:18

Quote[/b] ]That is grandeur achievement and one that other gaming companies had to work for ages to make it... but CA's got the knack for it, seems so.

This is true. After all, the Holocaust really was a great achievement. You don't kill 10 million people everyday. And the holocaust can be compared to the slaughter of RTW. IT is a monumental task to kill so many people, as it is a monumental task to alienate this much of your fanbase through lies, deceit, and downright stupidity.

It is a tragedy for the gaming community.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-07-2004, 22:21

Quote[/b] (andrewt @ June 07 2004,15:02)]I wouldn't blame this on the marketing department only. What they do is gather marketing data and help market the product. They probably gathered marketing data for both the current market for MTW and the mass market. While they gather the data, they're usually not the ones who make the decisions on them.

It's usually executives and the higher level managers who look into the data and decide whether they wish to cater more to the current market and people like it or to the mass market. The sad truth about the entertainment industry (movies, music, TV, games, etc.) is that these senior executives are usually old, white guys around retirement age who are out of touch with the current reality. The senior executives and managers who made the decision to target RTW to the mass market most likely either have never played a single game in their life, play some games sparingly just to try them out or have stopped playing games after Pong. They most likely don't know how many different types of gamers there are and believe that most will like the same game. What you get is the mistaken belief that marketing to the lowest common denominator will generate the most profits.

This is usually what happens. Low and middle level managers make some games, movies etc. Since many of these are new, they don't get the attention of senior management. However, once some of these become hits, they start to get recognized by senior management. Increasingly, senior management start making the decisions for them. Most of the time they will want to increase the customer base by moving it more to the mass market. The sad part is that since senior management are more isolated from the customers and understand them less, these initiatives fail.

It's the reason why movie sequels are very rarely as good as the original. In the games industry, it's the reason some franchises like XCom disappear completely. It was a successful niche product until senior management decided to use the license to create a mass market shooter. Can you say, utter failure? It's the reason why Final Fantasy 7 is considered by many the best in the series. It's the first game in the series to appeal to a huge market and every subsequent game was designed more for the mass market compared to the previous ones.

The track record for the mass market transition is abyssmal. More often than not, companies lose more of their initial market than they gain on the mass market. Usually, games in franchises are bought based on how good the previous game was so the effects of the mass market crap is mostly felt on the game after the transition to targeting the mass market.
Very well explained.

Now... BURN THEM ALL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

dessa14

06-08-2004, 00:57

they are all popist tryhards

Ragss

06-08-2004, 04:54

Quote[/b] (Aelwyn @ June 07 2004,13:24)]Personally I'm glad its not historically accurate. I think its kinda funny to see people shitting their pants over stuff like that. So the more you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif the harder I laugh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif . But seriously, its their product, they have the right to do whatever they want with it. And, you have the right to buy it or not buy it, and then change whatever you want in it. Its simple.
hahaha, I fully agree http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

ShadeHonestus

06-08-2004, 07:36

Quote[/b] ]It's just that the Egyptian stereotype is so deeply embedded in popular western culture that the powers that be felt obliged to go this way.

This reminds me of a quote from a movie I saw recently "Everything I create is dumbed down by some marketing puke named Andy."

One wonders just who was asking the questions, who were asked the questions, and what the questions were to come up with such a bogus decision to butcher the Egyptians this way.

There should have never been a question about how Ancient Egypt would be recognized by people. Of course if this question was asked, people would answer things like the Pharaohs, pyramids, chariots...and Charelton Heston leading the NRA out of bondage.

What CA and Activision should have posed as the question was how would the Macedonian Ptolemic dynasty be recognized by people. It may be that alot of people would simply say, "Who?" Especially if those people asked were in the Activision Marketing Department or some random cross-section of "strategy gamers." Strategy games would include many a fantasy game.

If its something unrecognized, then people will learn, it just doesn't have to get thrown out for the lowest common denominator in the closest possible historical era of recognition.

People are just as intrigued by the richness of discovery then they are looking at a familiar face.

In the end, the name of this game is Rome Total War and should as accurately as possible represent the Greco-Roman world as it was.

Before deciding anything about the eastern 2/3 of the known world at the time, any marketing puke should have been required to read "Alexander to Actium". Otherwise, leave it to those who know.

Their only claim here would be that a bunch of Egyptian enthusiasts would be suckered in to buying the game...but once again, its being marketed as Rome Total War. What does joe-blow think when he hears Rome? Republic, Empire, legion, Elephants in the Alps, Kirk Douglass as a Gladiator, and Charelton Heston rowing a ship, and now Russel Crowe launching napalm at Barbarians.

However, the same Egyptian audience could have been recognized by showing legions marching past pyramids...that piece would be both recognizable, and yeah, still standing today as they were then and years before.

In STW and MTW, I admit with great displeasure that I could not name all the provinces from memory by that which they were then known...so why didn't CA just name them Japan Province 1, Japan Province 2, or Iberian Province 1....etc. Hell, why bother with a real map at all...why not random maps only. I seemed to have survived NOT knowing their names, and now reinforced by game play, they are recognizable and historical.

They are just going to have to come up with a better argument than "marketing" if they want to defend this. Although it is hard to imagine a company like activision admitting their own ignorance in their trade.

Rosacrux

06-08-2004, 09:47

ShadeHonestus

Extremely well written post, mon amis. Very well versed you are, I might say. But you are waisting time and effort to a cause that is lost.

I don't know why they have to bloody butcher everything in order to reach the full (sales) potential of the game, but they are doing it. Even though they could keep a level of historical accuracy - to make this game just a bit more than an uber-hyped piece of shite - and add some "cool" (my arse http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif ) units to appeal the the mentally challenged - I really can't see any other reason for slaughtering the game than appeal to the mentally challenged (if you wish you can call it "lowest common denominator").

Mass marketing is one thing. Butchering everything because of ignorance, lazyness, stupidity or whatever else, is another. The Gladiator was mass marketed - hell, it made more money than Activision shall make in the next 100 years. Yet it preserved a level of historical accuracy - as accurate as one could expect by a holyweird movie. Even Troy tried to be as "historical" accurate as possible, and it was based on a MYTH, not history

Yet, RTW which is (was) going to be a strategy/battle simulation placed in a perfectly recognizable, well known and extremely well-documented historical period, is going to end up as a bloody freakshow.

If you ask me, it's a designer choice as much as it is a marketing choice.

Yes, there is money at stake. But the bloody corporate wanker that decides for this abomination of a historical simulation, has definitely shit for brains.

Damned, where is a wanking emoticon when you need it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Brutal DLX

06-08-2004, 10:56

Hmm, I'm not around for a couple of months and what happens? The entire game is being changed as we slowly approach its release date. Thus, I suppose the Europa Barbarorum project failed.
Does any official statement by CA exist? Did any dev post some explanation of this here at the .org?
Someone please bring me up to date http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The_Emperor

06-08-2004, 11:19

Welll I think that our pressure in Europa Barbarorum as made an improvement in most of the Barbarians.

We now no longer have hordes of Berserker-Axemen from the Viking era. Most of the Gauls have been given swords.

Apart from the Druid's sword and the Iberian Bullshite warrior, things are not in bad shape.

The thing is we didn't have a movement for Ptolemic Egypt, and that is probably the faction that needed the most help from the community... Now we are suffering for that.

Cebei

06-08-2004, 13:24

Weird. Check out the credits of MTW. CA consulted tons of institutions for unit accuracy. Now they are inventing things from their arses.

MTW was never meant to be played by your average Starcraft or Counterstrike flock; and actually its accuracy and reality attracted most of us.

Now I will send a flying-anthrax-pix to CA if they continue making units like Alexander's gryphon. And if you ask me that is a terrible marketing strategy.

The ordinary "cool-game-looking-for-guy" will not even bother getting RTW. RTW is for history buffs like us. And most of us wont get it either, because the game is no longer the game we want it to be.

Two mistakes, but doesnt make one correct. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif

Armchair Athlete

06-08-2004, 13:25

I doubt the other factions will be as off the mark as the Egyptians are, CA did a reasonably good job with the Romans and I think they will do alright with the Parthians and Macedonians/Greeks. If it is just one faction that is totally bogus then that will not be so bad.

SwordsMaster

06-08-2004, 13:28

Quote[/b] ]Burn them all (Activision and CA) at the stake

Quote[/b] ]Now... BURN THEM ALL

hmmm...I see a pattern establishing.... I think Aymar will love the jesuits in the XVII cent mod.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Now seriously, do you think that TC was "ok"? I dont believe the final release is going to be worse.
And, how can you complain if you havent seen the game yet?

Personally, I think the egyptians as they are now are pretty much the same as in "The mummy". but its ok, as long as the game is balanced, and they provide tools to mod it.

And I wouldnt mind Xena to be included just for the fun of actually making my warriors stab her with a sword and not only punching her. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

The_Emperor

06-08-2004, 13:38

Quote[/b] (Armchair Athlete @ June 08 2004,13:25)]I doubt the other factions will be as off the mark as the Egyptians are, CA did a reasonably good job with the Romans and I think they will do alright with the Parthians and Macedonians/Greeks. If it is just one faction that is totally bogus then that will not be so bad.
The point is these are not just "a few slightly inaccurate units", this is A WHOLE FACTION

We already know that fewer factions are playable in the campaign mode than in MTW. As such I think we all expect a good job to be done on the ones we are allowed to use so we can truly get our money's worth.

If we have a sucky faction that most of us don't want to have anything to do with, then quite frankly thats a bit of a waste.

Now I wasn't that fussed about the odd inaccurate unit comming into this game, (just as I tolerated the JomsVikings with their Horns in MTW VI), but this has just gone too far for my liking. After seeing the TC Episode of Raphia, I expected us to have that sort of army lineup, with a few Nubians, Egyptian archers and other stuff thrown in... I did not expect the entire faction to be overhauled into a King Tut style thing

(I'm sure if CA want to do an ancient Egypt thing they could just as easily create an "Egyptian Total War" game to follow Rome)

I mean we can easily not use the Bull Warriors, or the Druids and conentrate on the other units. But we cannot do that when an entire faction is made up of such units.

Omegamann

06-08-2004, 14:51

OK I have to say that I am also not happy with CAs approach of how they think they have to make history look cool

Funny thing is that in one of the interviews they gave one of them acctualy statet how supprised they were how well Shogun sold.
And I am pretty certain that it sold not only because of the great engine and gameplay, but because it immersed the player in the period depicted.
In MI they even gave the Mongols an accent in the Battlefield Voices (im mean the japanese ones).

With MTW one can argue that it had so big a scope, that it would have been to much work to have it historicaly accurate from every angle.
But it was still a very good and enjoyable experince to play.

I dont know when CA decided to cut down on there policy to create games that let the player feel at home in history, but I am realy sad that it happend.

It seems that they are concentrating to accurately depict the Rome Factions (I mean which mainstream game had Velites, Princeps and Triari in it before) but dont give the other factions the same attention.

Still the only thing that would realy kill the appael of RTW for me would be the inabillity to mod the game in reasonable ways.

They should not only give us the usual tools to create new battle maps and the possibility to dress up units for individual battles, but should also provide the possibility of changing the game like we see now with Napoleonic Total War and Hellenic Total War.
Because one thing I think everybody here agrees upon is that CA has already created the best historical wargame toolkit with MTW and will hopefully provide a much better one still with RTW

Barkhorn1x

06-08-2004, 14:59

Wow, you're away for a couple of days and look what you miss http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

My comments;

Hey, CA where is Moses? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

You should be ashamed of yourselves, really. What now seperates R:TW from Fantasy Total War?? You are a bunch of sellouts. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Rest assured that, if I find one of you Devs. using the word "Historical" or the word "Accurate" to describe this...THING...I will be there to set you straight. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

As if the Flaming Pigs and the Screaming Women weren't enough. Now you've created an ENTIRE faction based on BS

My anticipation quotient just went down about 4 points, yea I'll still buy, but now I'm not thrilled. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif

Barkhorn.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-08-2004, 15:30

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ June 08 2004,03:47)]ShadeHonestus

Extremely well written post, mon amis. Very well versed you are, I might say. But you are waisting time and effort to a cause that is lost.
I agree. Very well written.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, there is money at stake. But the bloody corporate wanker that decides for this abomination of a historical simulation, has definitely shit for brains.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-08-2004, 15:37

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ June 08 2004,07:24)]Weird. Check out the credits of MTW. CA consulted tons of institutions for unit accuracy. Now they are inventing things from their arses.

MTW was never meant to be played by your average Starcraft or Counterstrike flock; and actually its accuracy and reality attracted most of us.

Now I will send a flying-anthrax-pix to CA if they continue making units like Alexander's gryphon. And if you ask me that is a terrible marketing strategy.

The ordinary "cool-game-looking-for-guy" will not even bother getting RTW. RTW is for history buffs like us. And most of us wont get it either, because the game is no longer the game we want it to be.

Two mistakes, but doesnt make one correct. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif
Great post, Cebei. IMHO, thy are shooting themselves in the foot. But, what do I know? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-08-2004, 15:43

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ June 08 2004,07:28)]
Quote[/b] ]Burn them all (Activision and CA) at the stake

Quote[/b] ]Now... BURN THEM ALL

hmmm...I see a pattern establishing.... I think Aymar will love the jesuits in the XVII cent mod.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
HEHEHE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif I got carried away... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

Quote[/b] ]Now seriously, do you think that TC was "ok"? I dont believe the final release is going to be worse.
And, how can you complain if you havent seen the game yet?
I agree we haven't seen the game, but what has been portraied, paints a very grim picture of RTW.

Quote[/b] ]Personally, I think the egyptians as they are now are pretty much the same as in "The mummy". but its ok, as long as the game is balanced, and they provide tools to mod it.
Your oppinion. I do not agree. Besides, those chariots (heavy, scythed or with 3 men) were never used by the Egyptians. They are wrong even for New Kingdom Egypt.

Quote[/b] ]And I wouldnt mind Xena to be included just for the fun of actually making my warriors stab her with a sword and not only punching her. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
GAAAHHH http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-08-2004, 16:15

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ June 08 2004,07:38)]
Quote[/b] (Armchair Athlete @ June 08 2004,13:25)]I doubt the other factions will be as off the mark as the Egyptians are, CA did a reasonably good job with the Romans and I think they will do alright with the Parthians and Macedonians/Greeks. If it is just one faction that is totally bogus then that will not be so bad.
The point is these are not just "a few slightly inaccurate units", this is A WHOLE FACTION

We already know that fewer factions are playable in the campaign mode than in MTW. As such I think we all expect a good job to be done on the ones we are allowed to use so we can truly get our money's worth.

If we have a sucky faction that most of us don't want to have anything to do with, then quite frankly thats a bit of a waste.

Now I wasn't that fussed about the odd inaccurate unit comming into this game, (just as I tolerated the JomsVikings with their Horns in MTW VI), but this has just gone too far for my liking. After seeing the TC Episode of Raphia, I expected us to have that sort of army lineup, with a few Nubians, Egyptian archers and other stuff thrown in... I did not expect the entire faction to be overhauled into a King Tut style thing

(I'm sure if CA want to do an ancient Egypt thing they could just as easily create an "Egyptian Total War" game to follow Rome)

I mean we can easily not use the Bull Warriors, or the Druids and conentrate on the other units. But we cannot do that when an entire faction is made up of such units.
Preciselly. This is, in terms of faults, miles away from MTW's minor errors.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-08-2004, 16:22

Quote[/b] (Omegamann @ June 08 2004,08:51)]Funny thing is that in one of the interviews they gave one of them acctualy statet how supprised they were how well Shogun sold.
Then they are dumber than I thought. The game market is ever evolving and expanding at a very fast rate. There is a market for whatever different and original projects anyone has. Why should an historical game be different. In fact, it catters to every age, unlike Super Mario or something like that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif

Quote[/b] ]And I am pretty certain that it sold not only because of the great engine and gameplay, but because it immersed the player in the period depicted.
In MI they even gave the Mongols an accent in the Battlefield Voices (im mean the japanese ones).

With MTW one can argue that it had so big a scope, that it would have been to much work to have it historicaly accurate from every angle.
But it was still a very good and enjoyable experince to play.

I dont know when CA decided to cut down on there policy to create games that let the player feel at home in history, but I am realy sad that it happend.

It seems that they are concentrating to accurately depict the Rome Factions (I mean which mainstream game had Velites, Princeps and Triari in it before) but dont give the other factions the same attention.
I agree with all these points. There is no reason for the dumb down moves.

biguth dickuth

06-08-2004, 18:21

Needless to say, NOT EVEN ONE of the CA staff has come forward lately in order to (at least try) to justify what they are doing to the game.
I think they owe at least some sort of explanation to their hardcore fans.

And i'm sure that some of them would have had a spare minute to check the forums and see what is going on in the TW community.
Someone would think they are hiding from us... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

If you think this post is provocative, then YES, this is exactly what it is.
We are waiting for you CA to spend a spare minute and exchange a few words with the ones who used to be your games' devoted fans.

Now that i'm thinking of it, i should have made a thread instead of a simple post so that it would be easier for their (quite lacking, as it seems) vision to notice it.

The_Emperor

06-08-2004, 18:50

While they have stated time and again that gameplay will win over historical accuracy, I would like to hear their reasons for mutating the entire successor kingdom faction into an Ancient Egyptian one that is centuries out of date.

I hope they have a good reason for this.

Monk

06-08-2004, 18:55

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ June 08 2004,13:50)]While they have stated time and again that gameplay will win over historical accuracy, I would like to hear their reasons for mutating the entire successor kingdom faction into an Ancient Egyptian one that is centuries out of date.

I hope they have a good reason for this.
I'm in full agreement Emp.

I can understand their whole argument "gameplay over accuracy" but the Entire Faction Has Been Made up

CA has not stopped by the boards for some time, and it's been nearly a week since this bs Egyptian faction led by Ramses III came out. I'd like to hear CA's argument for this, just to try to make me understand.

They dumbed everything else down, so why not dumb down their argument so my tiny brain can understand? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

The_Emperor

06-08-2004, 19:01

Quote[/b] ]CA has not stopped by the boards for some time

oh they have stopped by, they just haven't posted... I saw Intrepid Sidekick in the active users list the other day. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

Trax

06-08-2004, 19:07

eat cold steel was reading the the Colosseum few hours ago...

biguth dickuth

06-08-2004, 19:24

Quote[/b] ]oh they have stopped by, they just haven't posted... I saw Intrepid Sidekick in the active users list the other day. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

Quote[/b] ]eat cold steel was reading the the Colosseum few hours ago...

As i said, someone would think they are hiding from us.

I just hoped they'll be a little moved by he community's voice.
Although i suspect they'll be really stubborn asses when they come in to justify the injustifiable.

bhutavarna

06-08-2004, 20:59

i'm totally disappointed with CA.

for the last few months i've stayed away from TW sites expecting to see some interesting development on RTW when i check back. but, to my surprise i found the game changed from an exciting historically based war simulation into a shitty fantasy based arcade-like wargame. WTF

when i started with STW, i don't care that we have less then 10 types units. it's simulated battles that were fun to play. more importantly, they were based on history which i appreciate the most. i'm sure that many of the fans who build this franchise feels the same way.

but now, it looks like crap. i like history. i don't like this game anymore.

Spino

06-08-2004, 21:30

Quote[/b] (biguth dickuth @ June 08 2004,14:24)]
Quote[/b] ]oh they have stopped by, they just haven't posted... I saw Intrepid Sidekick in the active users list the other day. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

Quote[/b] ]eat cold steel was reading the the Colosseum few hours ago...

As i said, someone would think they are hiding from us.

I just hoped they'll be a little moved by he community's voice.
Although i suspect they'll be really stubborn asses when they come in to justify the injustifiable.

Yes but it is quite possible that all this vinegar and sour grapes of wrath from some people in the pro-historical accuracy camp is having the exact opposite effect on the developers than was intended.

Some of you guys should realize that tirades and insults can have a profoundly negative impact on any dialogue, no matter how understanding or open minded the recipients may be. I'm willing to bet that there are quite a few people at CA who, regardless of whether they agreed or disagreed with some of the design decisions, are taking these tirades and insults personally thus making them far less open to suggestion, let alone likely to incorporate ANY of the ideas or suggestions posted in the Org.

The disappointed pro-historical accuracy crowd is of considerable size and must be raising a few eyebrows over at CA. You don't have to look hard to see the countless voices of discontent and disappointment being expressed here in the Org, over at Legiontotalwar.com and in the official forums. However the more fanatical element of this crowd would do well to think before they post. It's one thing to be unhappy about CA's actions, it's another thing entirely to start slinging sh|t and whooping and screeching like a pack of p|ssed off chimps. Take a deep breath, harness your passions and state your case in a civil manner. CA has been receptive to our ideas and concerns in the past, I see no evidence that they've given up this strategy in the present.

Trax

06-08-2004, 21:34

You are right, Spino.
I´ll apologise for CA for the somewhat unpolite things I´ve said about them.

Still, Activison may burn for all I care.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-08-2004, 21:47

Quote[/b] (biguth dickuth @ June 08 2004,12:21)]Needless to say, NOT EVEN ONE of the CA staff has come forward lately in order to (at least try) to justify what they are doing to the game.
I think they owe at least some sort of explanation to their hardcore fans.

And i'm sure that some of them would have had a spare minute to check the forums and see what is going on in the TW community.
Someone would think they are hiding from us... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

If you think this post is provocative, then YES, this is exactly what it is.
We are waiting for you CA to spend a spare minute and exchange a few words with the ones who used to be your games' devoted fans.
They are hiding. With the mess they've released to IGN, they know what is coming for them in the ORG: -----> http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-argue.gif

Quote[/b] ]Now that i'm thinking of it, i should have made a thread instead of a simple post so that it would be easier for their (quite lacking, as it seems) vision to notice it.
Go and do it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-08-2004, 21:50

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ June 08 2004,12:50)]While they have stated time and again that gameplay will win over historical accuracy, I would like to hear their reasons for mutating the entire successor kingdom faction into an Ancient Egyptian one that is centuries out of date.

I hope they have a good reason for this.
Guess what? They don't... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif ...not a good one anyway.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-08-2004, 21:51

Quote[/b] (Monk @ June 08 2004,12:55)]They dumbed everything else down, so why not dumb down their argument so my tiny brain can understand? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif Priceless...

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-08-2004, 21:57

Quote[/b] (biguth dickuth @ June 08 2004,13:24)]
Quote[/b] ]oh they have stopped by, they just haven't posted... I saw Intrepid Sidekick in the active users list the other day. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

Quote[/b] ]eat cold steel was reading the the Colosseum few hours ago...

As i said, someone would think they are hiding from us.

I just hoped they'll be a little moved by he community's voice.
The damage is done. It surelly won't change anything. It hasn't until now.

Quote[/b] ]Although i suspect they'll be really stubborn asses when they come in to justify the injustifiable.
That is the right expression:

justify the injustifiable

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-08-2004, 22:02

Quote[/b] (Spino @ June 08 2004,15:30)]
Quote[/b] (biguth dickuth @ June 08 2004,14:24)]
Quote[/b] ]oh they have stopped by, they just haven't posted... I saw Intrepid Sidekick in the active users list the other day. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

Quote[/b] ]eat cold steel was reading the the Colosseum few hours ago...

As i said, someone would think they are hiding from us.

I just hoped they'll be a little moved by he community's voice.
Although i suspect they'll be really stubborn asses when they come in to justify the injustifiable.

Yes but it is quite possible that all this vinegar and sour grapes of wrath from some people in the pro-historical accuracy camp is having the exact opposite effect on the developers than was intended.

Some of you guys should realize that tirades and insults can have a profoundly negative impact on any dialogue, no matter how understanding or open minded the recipients may be. I'm willing to bet that there are quite a few people at CA who, regardless of whether they agreed or disagreed with some of the design decisions, are taking these tirades and insults personally thus making them far less open to suggestion, let alone likely to incorporate ANY of the ideas or suggestions posted in the Org.

The disappointed pro-historical accuracy crowd is of considerable size and must be raising a few eyebrows over at CA. You don't have to look hard to see the countless voices of discontent and disappointment being expressed here in the Org, over at Legiontotalwar.com and in the official forums. However the more fanatical element of this crowd would do well to think before they post. It's one thing to be unhappy about CA's actions, it's another thing entirely to start slinging sh|t and whooping and screeching like a pack of p|ssed off chimps. Take a deep breath, harness your passions and state your case in a civil manner.
You are right. But utter disapointment really revolts people.

Quote[/b] ] CA has been receptive to our ideas and concerns in the past, I see no evidence that they've given up this strategy in the present.
You are partially right, partially wrong.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-08-2004, 22:07

Quote[/b] (Trax @ June 08 2004,15:34)]You are right, Spino.
I´ll apologise for CA for the somewhat unpolite things I´ve said about them.
I'm sorry to the developers and only to them. I'm sure that if they are the same involved in the process of creating STW and MTW, they probably aren't responsible. For the others, the ones with the "bright" ideas, maybe you should understand the gaming industry's new trends and not the old way of thinking.

Quote[/b] ]Still, Activison may burn for all I care.
If they had any to do with the "bright" ideas, I agree.

Trax

06-08-2004, 23:51

I would also like to make a comparison with other game developers.
Knights of Honor. In general this game isn´t anything extremly historically accurate, I would say it is rather innacurate as a matter of fact.

Still, one day they posted a viking unit in their weekly unit profile and surprise, surprise it had horns, good big horns, even bull warrior would have been ashamed. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Of course people in the forums kindly informed them that vikings actually didn´t use horned helmets.
Next day the chief developer posted: "sorry guys, we didn´t know this, consider it fixed"

Striking difference compared to our situation here don´t you think?

Barkhorn1x

06-09-2004, 01:12

Quote[/b] (Trax @ June 08 2004,17:51)]Striking difference compared to our situation here don´t you think?
Damn straight as having produced the Raphia episode for TC and having had contact with real historians, CA can hardly hide behind a "we didn't know" excuse.

And Spino - I will not apologize as the presentation of the Egyptian civ. is just pandering shite.

As a wise man once said to me - you can't make chicken salad out of chicken s**t - no matter what you choose to call it.

Hey CA, how about some more of this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif , instead of this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif ??

Barkhorn.

biguth dickuth

06-09-2004, 02:36

Spino, my effort was not to insult the CA staff who hang around in those forums but to provoke them in order to come forward and get a discussion going with us.

Is that too arrogant a request? Perhaps, but most of us have bought the previous TW releases and we really appreciated what those developers had done (especialy in Shogun, on my part). Therefore, i believe that we deserve to be given some answers and, since i believe that a dialectic approach is the best in solving any problems, to begin a conversation.

If the later is too demanding on their few, precious moments of free time (and this comment is not sarcastic) then they could just show to us that they are listening to the suggestions of the TW community and are taking them into consideration.
We aren't going to beg them to appear but it would be really kind of them to show to us that we are not totally ignored.

Besides, when i think of all those years of effort that the developers have given into making this "work of art of a game" (as characterized by Rising Sun, i think) it makes me sad to see it get gradually undergraded and not reaching the peaks of perfection that it could reach, for the sake of some bloody marketing decision which i doubt that it will mkae so much more money for them to be really worth it (if it could ever be worth it).

Of course, the game is theirs to do whatever they want with it but it reminds me of a man ready to commit suicide. His life is his own and he can take it away if he wants but you will still try to remind him that's it's not really worth it.
Something similar is happening to the game, although much less dramatic obviously. If it gets too full of holywood "coolness", his standard will be a shadow of its potential greatness.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

06-09-2004, 15:49

Quote[/b] (biguth dickuth @ June 08 2004,20:36)]Of course, the game is theirs to do whatever they want with it but it reminds me of a man ready to commit suicide. His life is his own and he can take it away if he wants but you will still try to remind him that's it's not really worth it.
Something similar is happening to the game, although much less dramatic obviously. If it gets too full of holywood "coolness", his standard will be a shadow of its potential greatness.
Such a good comparation.

The expression "work of art" is a distant memory now. The closest CA came to it, was with Shogun. The writting is on the wall:

Shogun > Medieval > Rome

tombom

06-09-2004, 20:12

I thought "Ok, they don't have to be historically accurate at all" until I saw the Secret Police Network

RisingSun

06-09-2004, 23:22

I'm with Barkhorn. You'll get no apologies out of me.

Yes, the secret police was a well-known facet of Egyptian society It's what the Russians based the KGB on. Rumor has it that it will even be a unit like battlefield ninja t3h c00l1111 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

Kraxis

06-10-2004, 00:18

First of all I want to thank Spino. Had he not said what he did, I would, and I might not have been as pleasant in my wording (my future profession is not going to be diplomat).
I sense a good deal of my views are better here. Those that has said they liked the look of the Egyptians have been put through a third-degree questioning, and the .com has as usual been struck as a heaven for illiterate and stupid people.
You know people, the general crowd here is most certain more enlightened, but it is also highly arrogant and significantly more selfimportant, when compared to the general Joe out there.
Those that claim themselves superior, directly or indirectly, are just the opposite when it comes to oppinions.

Why is the uneducated player's views less valuable than ours? And doesn't his views actually undermine the stupid/uneducated/general RTS player doesn't want to play Rome: Total War-oppinion? If there are people that has that view, is not likely that they will buy the game?
Relax You have the time to be pleasant, this is not a face to face debate where speed is essential. Also a pleasant tone is far more likely to be listened to. A rude tone is likely to be ignored, for who wants to enter a duel with a guy that isn't friendly? It is as simple as that.
Stop taking this personal, it isn't like CA is out to get you, you might not think like that, but the acting in here reeks of it.

As you might have noticed I have joined myself into the crowd here, and the reason is I feel I'm amongst peers in general. But I'm let down by the lack of good manners. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
I'm against this situation of a total pharaohnic Egypt, it doesn't feel good at all. Egypt might have been the faction on the lowest end of my list, but I still wanted, and expected hellenistic units.
But we can't honestly expect IGN to present every single unit the Egyptians have, or for that matter the buildings (in that case they have even fewer buildings than the clans in STW had). They have most likely presented the units that they liked the most, the most 'Egyptian' units as well as the Peasants to nudge people to think about mass slaughter of them (impressive visions of fields of dead and even more running comes to my mind when taking in the screenshots and the Peasants). Why would they mention the hellenistic units? Because it is historical? No. Because they are cool? Possibly, but that might give the Egyptians the 'wrong' look (remember IGN lives for many readers, and impressive reviews are important to that).
It is simply not that likely IGN would mention the hellenistic units if there are only a few of them...

Thus, I'm hoping and still expecting a few hellenistic units, this preview is simply not full enough. Though I'm sad that the Cleruchs are gone (Nile Cavalry it seems they have become).

scooter_the_shooter

06-10-2004, 00:58

hay i was one of them illiterate stupid peeps ya was talking about prbabyly remeber that demo thread that got closed i was one of the winy demo peeps

Brutal DLX

06-10-2004, 14:12

While I can only second what Kraxis and Spino said, I'm a bit let down by the lack of official response by CA.
There was a time when the devs regularly posted to explain features of MTW or when VI came out, they wanted to hear our opinion and they cleared up questions that arose about gameplay etc., and now there's this article at IGN that may or may not be the complete and final representation of the Egyptian faction, however none of the CA staff takes the time to write a few lines about this. This could be due to them being too busy or simply not being allowed to talk about the game in progress, but then they should at least state that this is the case...
In case I missed such a statement, my deepest apologies.