German WW2 troops

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I would like to know what are your opinions about the people that fought in the different German forces. I'm talking about Wermacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, SS soldiers, commanders, etc...

My doubt are these:

Do most people mistake the regime and it's values with ALL the men that fought on it's armies?

Isn't there an excessivelly generalised perception that the only good German WW2 soldier was a dead German WW2 soldier?

Can all WW2 Germans combatants be classified as Nazi simpathysers?

And, last but not least, do we have the perception today that ALL Allied soldiers were angels and unable to perform dreadfull acts on the battlefield?

Your thoughts please...

[Red Peasant]

I remember growing up with a very high regard for the German troops of WWII, as soldiers, and it seemed to be a general viewpoint amongst Britons. It was quite clear that the problem was the regime they were fighting for.

[Tribesman]

Quote[/b] ]Can all WW2 Germans combatants be classified as Nazi simpathysers?

Of course not , but they had to take a pledge of allgience to country , leader and party .

Quote[/b] ]do we have the perception today that ALL Allied soldiers were angels and unable to perform dreadfull acts on the battlefield?

War is war , people are individuals , unusual situations lead to unusual actions .

[Mount Suribachi]

Were they all Nazis? No of course not. But for sure some of them will have been.

As for the performance of "dreadful acts on the battlefield", British American & Canadian troops for sure killed prisoners, looted etc. The difference is that it was never on an organisational level. There were no Malmedy's by the allies, or entire towns shot (forget the name of that French town where it happened).

As far as they go as soldiers, the Germans were bloody good - near unbeatable in the 1st 3 years of the war. The quality of their NCO's and junior officers was second to none throughout the war.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Red Peasant @ June 05 2004,14:23)]I remember growing up with a very high regard for the German troops of WWII, as soldiers, and it seemed to be a general viewpoint amongst Britons. It was quite clear that the problem was the regime they were fighting for.
Yes, there is no denying their military prowess. I was refering more to the popular perception of:

WW2 German = Nazi

So, since the comemorations of WW2 Allied victory are performed to hommage the Allied soldiers, why not to pay some respect to the Axis soldiers too? I'm, obviously not refering to the Gestapo or SS, but to the soldiers of the regular armies who fought for the defense of their countries.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Tribesman @ June 05 2004,18:47)]
Quote[/b] ]Can all WW2 Germans combatants be classified as Nazi simpathysers?

Of course not , but they had to take a pledge of allgience to country , leader and party.
True. You have a point. But many of them hated the nazis and still died fighting for their country. They should be respected, not mixed up with those that imposed that disgusting ideology. People must not make generalizations.



Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]do we have the perception today that ALL Allied soldiers were angels and unable to perform dreadfull acts on the battlefield?
War is war, people are individuals ,unusual situations lead to unusual actions.
But unjustifiable executions of German POWs also happened among Allied soldiers. A big one happened in Normandy just a few days after the disembarkment. That must also not be forgotten.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

An SS regiment( i think it was a Panzer one) gunned down captured American soldiers in the Bulge Campaign. Some seventy i believe. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Mount Suribachi @ June 06 2004,04:07)]Were they all Nazis? No of course not. But for sure some of them will have been.
True.



Quote[/b] ]As for the performance of "dreadful acts on the battlefield", British, American & Canadian troops for sure killed prisoners, looted etc.
There were also French, Norwegian, Polish and other nation's soldiers involved in the desimbarkment.

I've not refered the Russians, who were pretty horrible in commiting atrocities, because I do not exactly include them amongst Allied troops.



Quote[/b] ]The difference is that it was never on an organisational level. There were no Malmedy's by the allies, or entire towns shot (forget the name of that French town where it happened).
Of course. I'm not claiming that comparations can be made with the SS execution units. I'm talking that some Allied acts of execution were based in personal prejudice and were performed at a low organizational level, but they still happened anyway.

ALL those poor innocents that died for no reason during the war. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif



Quote[/b] ]As far as they go as soldiers, the Germans were bloody good - near unbeatable in the 1st 3 years of the war. The quality of their NCO's and junior officers was second to none throughout the war.
Yes. People tend to forget that they were almost a single country (the Japanese were far away, the Italians had an obsolete army, and the Finns, although outstandigly brave and corageous, were just a few) fighting and holding on in several fronts and against several countries throughtout 6 long years of war Incredible

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (The Blind King of Bohemia @ June 06 2004,10:37)]An SS regiment( i think it was a Panzer one) gunned down captured American soldiers in the Bulge Campaign. Some seventy i believe. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif
Wasn't that near Bastogne, the town defended by the 101st US Airborne Division? Bastogne was an essencial comunications crossroad. Any army controling it, would have an imense advantage in the whole region in the following weeks. The Germans were desperate to take it. But those tough Eagles were holding their own. The Panzergrenadiere got so frustrated that they no longer made prisioners. IIRC, that caused retaliations and later lead to excrutiating acts from both sides...

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Could have been. I'll a have a look around for the book http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Vlad The Impaler]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 06 2004,10:44)]Yes. People tend to forget that they were almost a single country (the Japanese were far away, the Italians had an obsolete army, and the Finns, although outstandigly brave and corageous, were just a few) fighting and holding on in several fronts and against several countries throughtout 6 long years of war Incredible
there were also a lot of Romanians that were fighting on the eastern front , almost 1 milion soldiers in 4 years of war.
for more info about romanian participation on eastern front along with germans u can surf this site :
http://www.worldwar2.ro/

english version available

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Vlad The Impaler @ June 06 2004,11:00)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 06 2004,10:44)]Yes. People tend to forget that they were almost a single country (the Japanese were far away, the Italians had an obsolete army, and the Finns, although outstandigly brave and corageous, were just a few) fighting and holding on in several fronts and against several countries throughtout 6 long years of war Incredible
there were also a lot of Romanians that were fighting on the eastern front , almost 1 milion soldiers in 4 years of war.
for more info about romanian participation on eastern front along with germans u can surf this site :
http://www.worldwar2.ro/

english version available

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif
Sorry for not including them. I forgot. And many people don't even know it. I personally know little about their role. That must be an heritage of Comunist censorship, right? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

BTW, gret link... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

[Vlad The Impaler]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 06 2004,11:15)]That must be an heritage of Comunist censorship, right? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

BTW, gret link... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif
exactly.my grandfathers fought in Russia all war.one died near Stalingrad the other survive and fought in Hungary , Austria and Czechoslovakia.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I heard somewhere that the Romanians had the most(apart from Germany)members in the SS. Is that true or utter crap http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[Vlad The Impaler]

Quote[/b] (The Blind King of Bohemia @ June 06 2004,11:29)]I heard somewhere that the Romanians had the most(apart from Germany)members in the SS. Is that true or utter crap http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
no.it is crap.SS had walone , estonian , lituanian , letonian , russian ( gen. Vlasov ) , ukrainian ( gen.Kaminsky ) , albanese , norse but NO romanian units at all.

some romanians were recruted for a unit but they were in very small numbers.most were member of Iron Guard ( Legion of Mihail Archangel ) , romanian extreme right wing party but slightly difrrent from italians or germans comrades .

after the defeat of Iron Guard by marechal Antonescu , chief of the state, many of them were imprisoned. some shock units were formed by the member of this political movement and they were sent to fight in Russia in disciplinar batalions. just a small number survived. they fought in romanian ranks , not in german ones. they were ferocious anti-communists and the survivors formed after the war partisan resitance groups against russian occupation. the died hoping that the americans will come some day and beat the bear.

[Crimson Castle]

I'm sorry, but what were the German soldiers fighting for again? :)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Vlad The Impaler @ June 06 2004,11:47)]the died hoping that the americans will come some day and beat the bear.
That wouldn't be possible after Ialta.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Thanks for clearing that up Vlad http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ June 06 2004,12:22)]I'm sorry, but what were the German soldiers fighting for again? :)
So, in accordance to your oppinion they were ALL nazies, right?

[Cebei]

AFAIK, the army was not in favor of Hitler since the very beginning, but they had to play along with the momentum of expansion.

Most of the Germans in WW2 were in search of their national dignity, that was lost at the end of WW1. Thus I always read the powerful momentum of the German army as their recovery of their self-respect through invasion.

Not necessarily all of them liked Hitler.

[ah_dut]

Most of the troops by the end were conscripts so i doubt their SS credentials http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Crimson Castle]

Wait, before we go on and start a thread about how glorious, great, and lovely the German soldiers were. I beg you all to take a good look at what exactly they were fighting for - namely the Third Reich. Consider what Hitler and the Nazis were on about - read Hitler's public speeches against the Jews and other "sub-humans" and the public atrocities and crimes the Nazis were committing in the country. Remember, it wasn't the Nazis that invaded Poland in 1939, Russia in 1941 etc.. It was the GERMAN ARMY.

As for the idea that the German soldiers had NO IDEA of the atrocities being committed, I also ask that you consider the factual data - namely, the numerous concentration camps set up around the German Reich, the routine execution of partisans, civilian hostages, prisoners of war, esp. in the East. Not to mention - the very public systemic brutal treatment meted out to Jews, Gypsies, Slavs etc..

Look, go and read a good book about it - try this one:

The German Army and Genocide: Crimes Against War Prisoners, Jews and Other Civilians in the East, 1939-44
Omer Bartov (Foreword), Hannes Heer, Hamburg Institute for Social Research (Editor), Scott Abbott (Translator), New Press, 1999.

You can buy it from Amazon

http://snipurl.com/6ww5

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ June 07 2004,13:02)]Wait, before we go on and start a thread about how glorious, great, and lovely the German soldiers were.
What was it that of my previous posts you haven't understand? Maybe my English is too rusty or is it yourse?

It was NEVER my intention to glorify the Nazi regime or the German soldier. My intention was to discuss if the people's perception about German soldiers in WW2 corresponds to reality.



Quote[/b] ]I beg you all to take a good look at what exactly they were fighting for - namely the Third Reich. Consider what Hitler and the Nazis were on about - read Hitler's public speeches against the Jews and other "sub-humans" and the public atrocities and crimes the Nazis were committing in the country. Remember, it wasn't the Nazis that invaded Poland in 1939, Russia in 1941 etc.. It was the GERMAN ARMY.
Correct. There is no denying that. But I do not believe that EVERY American is pro-Bush or Republican just because they have invaded Irak. So, you reasoning that they were all nazis is invalid. Some might only be inputable for passivity.



Quote[/b] ]As for the idea that the German soldiers had NO IDEA of the atrocities being committed, I also ask that you consider the factual data - namely, the numerous concentration camps set up around the German Reich, the routine execution of partisans, civilian hostages, prisoners of war, esp. in the East. Not to mention - the very public systemic brutal treatment meted out to Jews, Gypsies, Slavs etc..
Sure. A 20 year-old farmer in the countryside would have a vast perception of the intricacies of the Holocaust.

There is still another approach. In Stalin's regime nobody (even the high ranks) rebelled against him. Why? Fear. A similar approach can explain, in some cases, some of the reactions of the German population. Remember the regime of beatings and repression that outrulled other parties in the elections that lead to Hitler's rise to power?


Quote[/b] ]Look, go and read a good book about it - try this one:

The German Army and Genocide: Crimes Against War Prisoners, Jews and Other Civilians in the East, 1939-44
Omer Bartov (Foreword), Hannes Heer, Hamburg Institute for Social Research (Editor), Scott Abbott (Translator), New Press, 1999.

You can buy it from Amazon

http://snipurl.com/6ww5
I recommend you a good reading also. To put imputability into perspective:

The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/067976285X/ref=pd_cpt_gw_1/104-7393556-5260701)

Hiroshima : Why America Dropped the Atomic Bomb (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0316831247/qid=1086634365/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-7393556-5260701?v=glance&s=books)

Or do you want me to talk about the abuse performed on Autralian Aborigenes? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif Maybe of the motion that made them of the human species only having been approved in the 60's?

I think this might bring you some better views on the matters at hand... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 06 2004,08:07)]I would like to know what are your opinions about the people that fought in the different German forces. I'm talking about Wermacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, SS soldiers, commanders, etc...

My doubt are these:

Do most people mistake the regime and it's values with ALL the men that fought on it's armies?

Isn't there an excessivelly generalised perception that the only good German WW2 soldier was a dead German WW2 soldier?

Can all WW2 Germans combatants be classified as Nazi simpathysers?

And, last but not least, do we have the perception today that ALL Allied soldiers were angels and unable to perform dreadfull acts on the battlefield?

Your thoughts please...
Excuse me, but you asked for our opinions and thoughts about German soldiers, did you not? So when I voice my opinion on the matter why are you getting all heated up and all?

Moreover, I am not saying that all the German soldiers were Nazis or wicked demons etc.. But there is NO getting around the fact that they were fighting for a wicked cause - Nazism - and there the German Army regularly practised systematic atrocities - ie it wasn't committed by a few individuals but it was a routine practise.

Now if you want to sing the praises of German soldiers who were courageously shooting up Allied soldiers climbing up on the shores of Omaha beach, well.... its not all the same you know. We all gotta take sides.

[bighairyman]

Now i'm sure that there are some Units in the German army that were fanatics of Nazism, and massacre villages and prisoners. But i must say not ALL German soldiers were fighting for Nazism, some of them were fighting for their farms, their family, their country. Myabe they knew of all the killing, but what can they do about it. Remember those massacres were encouraged by the government, those soldiers killing prisoners weren't gonna be punished by the government. now Crimson Castle, i can see that you are from Australia, now suppose one day you guys decide to invade New Zealand, and you are part of the army. Your government order is to kill every New Zea lander you see, and your comrades in arms begin killing, what are you gonna do? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif


Now the Allies weren't perfect angels During Operation Torch, the US invasion of North Africa, the US army was getting it's a$$ raped by the Germans in the one battle(forgot the name now), But after the battle, that were some massacres of German POWs by US soldiers. I'm sure at least some of you nows Dresden. The Allies bombed it with incendiary bombs, burning much of the historic buildings and killing civilians. there was no need, the War could have been won even if they didn't do it, and don't get me going with all the civilians killed by th allies.

What we have to understand is that War is Hell, there is no good guys VS Bad guys. Only men trying to loyally serve their country and do the best they could to stay alive. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif

[Hetman]

First. The war crimes.

I agree that soldiers in every army were killing POWs or civilians, but
Wehrmacht was ordered to beheave in such way, I mean in Eastern Europe, considering Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, but not only.

Just 3 facts which should be not forgotten

I remember a documentary presented about 3 years ago in Polish TV, it was about an American Indian tribal chief who fought in polish resistance. He described Germans entering a small town in northern Poland. They beheaved as normal, average soldiers with one exception -
one of them shot a 6 years old kid just because he was STARING at him, and NO OTHER GERMAN SOLDIER intervened. The story was so horrible that I remember to this day.
Wehrmacht commited horrible crimes in Poland, Yugoslavia and Russia during the war - they were ordered to do such things and very many obeyed. Remember the village in France where all civilians were killed,
it happened in eastern Europe almost EVERY DAY e.g. in Poland more than 200 villages were burned to the ground, every inhabitant killed.

Killing innocent, defenceless civilians was also quite common in Luftwaffe. For example I'm sure You know the stories about Junkers Ju 87 Stuka planes killing refugees who were running away before German army. It is true, it really happened. Quite many times German aircrafts
were 'hunting' for civilians - maybe because they were bored, I don't know.


During uprising in Warsaw in 1944 ( not the ghetto uprising) - the German army was using 'human shields' i.e. captured civilians were herded before tanks and infantrymen when they were storming fortified positions of Polish resistance fighters.


Sorry, but whatever You think or know. American, British or other Allied forces were never using civilians as 'human shields'.


Second.

The quality.

Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and SS had wery good soldiers. Their
achievements were really impressive - especially fighter pilots - more than 100 pilots shot down more than 100 planes each, and two ( Hartmann and Novotny) even more than 300. Such soldiers as tank ace Wittman or bomber pilot Rudel ( about 600 tanks destroyed, 1 Russian battleship sunk) are really legendary warriors.

But not every German soldier was so good, not every German unit was perfect.

two examples.

In September 1939 German troops were trying to capture polish Baltic naval bases and ports.
One of the targets was a small outpost in northern Danzig called Westerplatte. Here just one company of infantry ( but better equipped and fortified a little) was defending for 7 DAYS LOOSING ONLY 18 men despite naval ( one small battleship), aerial ( one airstrike), artillery bombardment and several assaults of 2000+ infantrymen. They held for such a long time partly because all this bombardment was innacurate - for example artillery was overshooting for most of the time.
Another blunder was the assault on Polish Post Office in Danzig - about
30 employees held for one day - the Germans had to use artillery, armoured cars and probably flamethrowers to get inside.
It was just an ordinary Post Office, nothing more, after the fight they killed the captured defenders claiming they were not POWs.
Generally German army which was supposed to capture polish coastline
was achieved few successes, especially Kriegsmarine which wasn't even able to seriously demage a polish submarine.
In the end of the campaign not even one of the submarines was destroyed
- 3 travelled to Sweden and two even were able to reach England.

Second about SS units during the campaign.
Generally the units were humilated quite many times. Lack of training and discipline was quickly obvious to all.

These are most famous 'achievements' of SS in 1939.
Danzig SS suffered heavy losses when their commander decided to attack along a road - they were perfect target and get massacred by machine guns.
'Germania' SS regiment was easily suprised at Lvov by two polish infantry divisions. The result is easy to imagine - they were crushed - except this the unit 'achieved' nothing in 1939.
'Kempf' Armoured Division which consisted mostly of SS units suffered heavy losses when their commander decided to 'charge' across a minefield in front of fortified positions of polish 20th Infantry Division - again the unit wasn't very famous, the reasons seem to be obvious, especilly after this performance.

Generally only in France and after SS proved they are good soldiers, but not in Poland.

regards Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[SwordsMaster]

Ok, Im going to join the discussion.

First of all, as soldiers, the german soldiers were very good. They just wouldnt take out France with such ease if they hadnt been.

From what I read about ideologies, there was quite a good number of german soldiers fighting with the russians, and I believe that socal pressure forced a good number of the soldiers to adhere to the regime.


And apart from that think about this:

A soldiers duty is to obey his superiors, which obey the government, right?

If the government says to kill someone and the soldier does not, he is judged by a military court and then (probably) killed. As you may understand that is not a pleasant perspective.

The atrocities were just that, atrocities and theres no way of justifying that.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ June 07 2004,21:40)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 06 2004,08:07)]I would like to know what are your opinions about the people that fought in the different German forces. I'm talking about Wermacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, SS soldiers, commanders, etc...

My doubt are these:

Do most people mistake the regime and it's values with ALL the men that fought on it's armies?

Isn't there an excessivelly generalised perception that the only good German WW2 soldier was a dead German WW2 soldier?

Can all WW2 Germans combatants be classified as Nazi simpathysers?

And, last but not least, do we have the perception today that ALL Allied soldiers were angels and unable to perform dreadfull acts on the battlefield?

Your thoughts please...
Excuse me, but you asked for our opinions and thoughts about German soldiers, did you not? So when I voice my opinion on the matter why are you getting all heated up and all?
You are right. I was incorrect. I am sorry.



Quote[/b] ]Moreover, I am not saying that all the German soldiers were Nazis or wicked demons etc.. But there is NO getting around the fact that they were fighting for a wicked cause - Nazism - and there the German Army regularly practised systematic atrocities - ie it wasn't committed by a few individuals but it was a routine practise.
What do you define as German Army? The SS units were hated by the Wermacht regulars. Did the Wermacht performed atrocities? Probably a few, but very few can claim innocence in such aspects. That the SS and Gestapo were vile, cruel, sadist, fanatic war criminals is not at stake. They were and probably the worst in History.



Quote[/b] ]Now if you want to sing the praises of German soldiers who were courageously shooting up Allied soldiers climbing up on the shores of Omaha beach, well.... its not all the same you know. We all gotta take sides.
Was that necessary? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif Their motives were wrong, to say the least, but did they ALL behave as cold-blooded assassins?

[Rosacrux]

Interesting discussion... well, first of all, the Wehrmacht did commit a whole bunch of atrocities, not only "a few".

In Greece - which I know all too well - the atrocities of the German occupying forces were horendous. Not as bad as Russia and the Baltic States, but equally bad as Yugoslavia and Poland.

They had burned down whole villages, after shooting every man, woman and kid. They would kill randomly people just for the sport of it. They would loot and rape without discrimination. They would regularely perform mass executions.

Post WW2 some studies have shown that, out of the massive atrocities conducted by the Germans during the occupation of Greece:

- about 38% of the atrocities were performed by SS and Waffen SS troops.

- about 25% were commited by the local fascists, those who cooperated with the regime (just like the Ustaci in Yugoslavia, here we called them "Security Divisions")

- about 10% cannot be attributed to a particular branch of the German military, or where direct actions of Secret Police or individual actions.

- The rest, a quite impressive 27%, was commited by men of the Wehrmacht. True, in most occassions ordered by the residetnt SS cronies (the German command line in the occupied areas was extremely rigged and rather nebulous - the SS could practically intervene in everything) but it was Wehrmacht men nevertheless.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (bighairyman @ June 07 2004,22:23)]Now i'm sure that there are some Units in the German army that were fanatics of Nazism, and massacre villages and prisoners.
Of course, and not few. Specially the SS execution squads. Those filthy inhuman bastards. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif



Quote[/b] ]But i must say not ALL German soldiers were fighting for Nazism, some of them were fighting for their farms, their family, their country. Myabe they knew of all the killing, but what can they do about it. Remember those massacres were encouraged by the government, those soldiers killing prisoners weren't gonna be punished by the government.
Preciselly my point.



Quote[/b] ]Now the Allies weren't perfect angels During Operation Torch, the US invasion of North Africa, the US army was getting it's a$$ raped by the Germans in the one battle(forgot the name now), But after the battle, that were some massacres of German POWs by US soldiers. I'm sure at least some of you nows Dresden. The Allies bombed it with incendiary bombs, burning much of the historic buildings and killing civilians. there was no need, the War could have been won even if they didn't do it, and don't get me going with all the civilians killed by th allies.
Wasn't that on Kasserine Pass?

Dresda is just like Hamburg, a testemony to Allied War Crimes. Those obssessed Generals Harris and Curtis Le May "Destroying the morale of the German people." That only caused the German civilian populations to support even more the regime. The Volksturm wouldn't have been half as sucessefull if they had bombed only military targets. Besides, it was the German war industry that was necessary to destroy, not civilian buildings. We could expect that from those Nazi bastards, but the Allies shouldn't have fallen in that attitude.



Quote[/b] ]What we have to understand is that War is Hell, there is no good guys VS Bad guys. Only men trying to loyally serve their country and do the best they could to stay alive. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif
Very true words. Although I have to say, most of them, not all.

[Ser Clegane]

Regarding war crimes of the Wehrmacht (not the SS) there has been a much discussed exhibition on this topic here in Germany.

For those who are interested here is a link to the Website (there is also a link to the English version on the bottom left):

Wehrmacht war crime exhibition (http://www.verbrechen-der-wehrmacht.de/)

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi all

Well first of all, I'm German. My Grandfather fought for the Wehrmacht. He was born in 1918 and died 2003. Not many men born in this year had the chance to live this long. Especially those that fought in Russia. After the war he took a job in the industry. Guest workers from Turkey and the like became his friends and they honoured him as a good superior and co-worker. I haven't heard a single racist/fashist remark in the 30 years I knew him.
I guess most of the Germans can/ would say this about their relatives.
Talking about the 3rd Reich and its soldiers is very difficult in Germany. Normaly the soldiers aren't honoured in any way because this would mean to honour their achievements/ goals, or so the most of us think.
I think you cannot relate the committed atrocities to all the soldiers since the Germans had specialist troops like SS to act out the ethnical cleansing. Different purposes and different orders existed like today.

Concerning war-atrocities I would like to add the following:

Americans (mostly of European origin) eradicated the native tribes in order to colonize North America.
Spanish and Portugese annilihated native tribes to colonize South Ameria.
French, English, Dutch and Germans divided Afrika into colonies over the dead bodies of natives.
English (again) conquered huge parts of Asia killing too many.
Australians had their share with the Aborigines.
Russians killed 9 (?) millions in WW2.

Forgot anyone? I guess the List goes on and on.... (forgive any inaccuracy, this is all from memory). Conclusion? War is a bloody ugly business.
So, tell me why is it that when it comes to war crimes the (evil) Germans come to mind first? And don't tell me it's the organized form of killing in Concentration Camps.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for apologies for the commited crimes. I'm just sick of the self righteous point of view that some countries put forward.

Kind regards

R'as

[econ21]

Rosacrux is right - ordinary members of the Wehrmacht engaged in atrocities on a much greater scale than soldiers in other armies, no doubt because of the Nazi/racist ideology of some and of their political masters. Of course, most did not do such acts and many did not share that ideology. But enough did participate to make that army's record qualitatively different from most others in WW2.

Participation in those atrocities had virtually nothing to do with "fighting for one's country". Atrocities, by definition, are not instances of fighting - they are acts of needless violence committed on helpless people. Often they were also not something German participants had to do against their will. Queasy soldiers could often be excused from participation in atrocities without reprisal - it was usually not like some of these ghastly atrocities in Liberia etc where captured people are forced to do terrible deeds on pain of death.

I am not sure there is a helpful analogy between Nazi atrocities with Allied bombing of civilian targets. Bombing of cities was seen as a way of winning a war. I disagree with that perception but clearly a reasonable case can be made for it (shattering your enemy's will to fight is fundamental to war winning). Where we draw the line in war fighting is a matter of degree. But the killing of Jews and others considered politically undesirable was not a military strategy and was clearly wrong. Comparing bombing with Nazi killings in their occupied territories is like equating a homeowner shooting an unarmed burglar with a burglar shooting an unarmed homeowner. Yes, in both cases people die - perhaps unnecessarily - but one act is clearly wrong whereas reasonable people can disagree on the morality of the other.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ June 08 2004,06:27)]First. The war crimes.

I agree that soldiers in every army were killing POWs or civilians, but Wehrmacht was ordered to beheave in such way, I mean in Eastern Europe, considering Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, but not only.

Just 3 facts which should be not forgotten

I remember a documentary presented about 3 years ago in Polish TV, it was about an American Indian tribal chief who fought in polish resistance. He described Germans entering a small town in northern Poland. They beheaved as normal, average soldiers with one exception -
one of them shot a 6 years old kid just because he was STARING at him, and NO OTHER GERMAN SOLDIER intervened. The story was so horrible that I remember to this day.
Wehrmacht commited horrible crimes in Poland, Yugoslavia and Russia during the war - they were ordered to do such things and very many obeyed.
Very sad event that 6-year old assassination. Very sad to know such events occured with the regular army (Wermacht). But I know that a lot of the organized executions in the East, were performed by the SS, not the Wermacht.



Quote[/b] ]Remember the village in France where all civilians were killed, it happened in eastern Europe almost EVERY DAY
Are you talking about Oradour-sur-Glane (June 10th 1944)?

That was an SS Reich action, not a Wermacht one.



Quote[/b] ]e.g. in Poland more than 200 villages were burned to the ground, every inhabitant killed.
Yes, in the East the cruelty escalated to unbarable levels because of that filthy racial theory of the Nazis.

The Poles were particulary unfortunate in WW2, they were unsupported by their allies and had to suffer the cruelty of the Nazis and Stalin's regime.



Quote[/b] ]Killing innocent, defenceless civilians was also quite common in Luftwaffe. For example I'm sure You know the stories about Junkers Ju 87 Stuka planes killing refugees who were running away before German army. It is true, it really happened. Quite many times German aircrafts
were 'hunting' for civilians - maybe because they were bored, I don't know.
Yes, I know that. One of the "reasons" given was to increase the confusion and chaos in the communication routes.



Quote[/b] ]During uprising in Warsaw in 1944 ( not the ghetto uprising) - the German army was using 'human shields' i.e. captured civilians were herded before tanks and infantrymen when they were storming fortified positions of Polish resistance fighters.
Wasn't that when Stalin did not let the American and British planes support the resistance army, by not letting them land in the USSR?



Quote[/b] ]Sorry, but whatever You think or know. American, British or other Allied forces were never using civilians as 'human shields'.
I never said they were. Are you joking?

So, the majority of the German population had been indoctrinated to a level of inhumanity I was unaware of.



Quote[/b] ]Second.

The quality.

Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and SS had wery good soldiers. Their achievements were really impressive - especially fighter pilots - more than 100 pilots shot down more than 100 planes each, and two (Hartmann and Novotny) even more than 300. Such soldiers as tank ace Wittman or bomber pilot Rudel (about 600 tanks destroyed, 1 Russian battleship sunk) are really legendary warriors.

But not every German soldier was so good, not every German unit was perfect.

two examples.

In September 1939 German troops were trying to capture polish Baltic naval bases and ports.
One of the targets was a small outpost in northern Danzig called Westerplatte. Here just one company of infantry ( but better equipped and fortified a little) was defending for 7 DAYS LOOSING ONLY 18 men despite naval ( one small battleship), aerial ( one airstrike), artillery bombardment and several assaults of 2000+ infantrymen. They held for such a long time partly because all this bombardment was innacurate - for example artillery was overshooting for most of the time.
Another blunder was the assault on Polish Post Office in Danzig - about 30 employees held for one day - the Germans had to use artillery, armoured cars and probably flamethrowers to get inside.
It was just an ordinary Post Office, nothing more, after the fight they killed the captured defenders claiming they were not POWs.
Generally German army which was supposed to capture polish coastline was achieved few successes, especially Kriegsmarine which wasn't even able to seriously demage a polish submarine.
In the end of the campaign not even one of the submarines was destroyed - 3 travelled to Sweden and two even were able to reach England.

Second about SS units during the campaign.
Generally the units were humilated quite many times. Lack of training and discipline was quickly obvious to all.

These are most famous 'achievements' of SS in 1939.
Danzig SS suffered heavy losses when their commander decided to attack along a road - they were perfect target and get massacred by machine guns.
'Germania' SS regiment was easily suprised at Lvov by two polish infantry divisions. The result is easy to imagine - they were crushed - except this the unit 'achieved' nothing in 1939.
'Kempf' Armoured Division which consisted mostly of SS units suffered heavy losses when their commander decided to 'charge' across a minefield in front of fortified positions of polish 20th Infantry Division - again the unit wasn't very famous, the reasons seem to be obvious, especilly after this performance.

Generally only in France and after SS proved they are good soldiers, but not in Poland.
As I said before, my goal with this post wasn't to focus on the german soldiers capabilities, only their conduct in war.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ June 08 2004,06:36)]And apart from that think about this:

A soldiers duty is to obey his superiors, which obey the government, right?

If the government says to kill someone and the soldier does not, he is judged by a military court and then (probably) killed. As you may understand that is not a pleasant perspective.
Very good points. I agree that it would be a difficult decision and depended on personal education.



Quote[/b] ]The atrocities were just that, atrocities and theres no way of justifying that.
Of course not. They should be always remembered as examples that shouldn't ever happen, but are possible when Humanity is swamped in that hysterical desiese called War.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ June 08 2004,08:36)]Interesting discussion... well, first of all, the Wehrmacht did commit a whole bunch of atrocities, not only "a few".

In Greece - which I know all too well - the atrocities of the German occupying forces were horendous. Not as bad as Russia and the Baltic States, but equally bad as Yugoslavia and Poland.

They had burned down whole villages, after shooting every man, woman and kid. They would kill randomly people just for the sport of it. They would loot and rape without discrimination. They would regularely perform mass executions.

Post WW2 some studies have shown that, out of the massive atrocities conducted by the Germans during the occupation of Greece:

- about 38% of the atrocities were performed by SS and Waffen SS troops.

- about 25% were commited by the local fascists, those who cooperated with the regime (just like the Ustaci in Yugoslavia, here we called them "Security Divisions")

- about 10% cannot be attributed to a particular branch of the German military, or where direct actions of Secret Police or individual actions.

- The rest, a quite impressive 27%, was commited by men of the Wehrmacht. True, in most occassions ordered by the residetnt SS cronies (the German command line in the occupied areas was extremely rigged and rather nebulous - the SS could practically intervene in everything) but it was Wehrmacht men nevertheless.
I had no idea of such numbers. Great information, Rosacrux.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Ser Clegane @ June 08 2004,08:49)]Regarding war crimes of the Wehrmacht (not the SS) there has been a much discussed exhibition on this topic here in Germany.

For those who are interested here is a link to the Website (there is also a link to the English version on the bottom left):

Wehrmacht war crime exhibition (http://www.verbrechen-der-wehrmacht.de/)
Very interesting link, Ser Clegane

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (R'as al Ghul @ June 08 2004,08:57)]Hi all

Well first of all, I'm German. My Grandfather fought for the Wehrmacht. He was born in 1918 and died 2003. Not many men born in this year had the chance to live this long. Especially those that fought in Russia. After the war he took a job in the industry. Guest workers from Turkey and the like became his friends and they honoured him as a good superior and co-worker. I haven't heard a single racist/fashist remark in the 30 years I knew him.
I guess most of the Germans can/ would say this about their relatives.
Talking about the 3rd Reich and its soldiers is very difficult in Germany. Normaly the soldiers aren't honoured in any way because this would mean to honour their achievements/ goals, or so the most of us think.
I think you cannot relate the committed atrocities to all the soldiers since the Germans had specialist troops like SS to act out the ethnical cleansing. Different purposes and different orders existed like today.

Concerning war-atrocities I would like to add the following:

Americans (mostly of European origin) eradicated the native tribes in order to colonize North America.
Spanish and Portugese annilihated native tribes to colonize South Ameria.
French, English, Dutch and Germans divided Afrika into colonies over the dead bodies of natives.
English (again) conquered huge parts of Asia killing too many.
Australians had their share with the Aborigines.
Russians killed 9 (?) millions in WW2.

Forgot anyone? I guess the List goes on and on.... (forgive any inaccuracy, this is all from memory). Conclusion? War is a bloody ugly business.
So, tell me why is it that when it comes to war crimes the (evil) Germans come to mind first? And don't tell me it's the organized form of killing in Concentration Camps.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for apologies for the commited crimes. I'm just sick of the self righteous point of view that some countries put forward.

Kind regards

R'as
Thank you for posting. I agree that, although some crimes are more horrible than others, no nation is free of guilt. The reasons for the focus on German guilt have to do with three factors:

-Recent event. More in memory, more documented, many people that participated in the events are still living.
-The sheer scope of the Holocaust. Extremelly organized, massive, vast and inhuman in a way previously unheard off.
-The winners impose their ideas of how the story will be told. Although nobody doubts the cruelness, savagery and culpability of the Nazi regime, stories could have been embezeled to increase the difference between Axis (not only Nazis) and Allied actions.

My point was preciselly the point of the individual, not of the nation iteself. It's hard to distinguish when it's the case of the free will an individual, or the Nation's orders to which he is subjected too. I was hoping for a bigger compreension on that matter when I innitiated the thread.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Simon Appleton @ June 08 2004,09:05)]I am not sure there is a helpful analogy between Nazi atrocities with Allied bombing of civilian targets. Bombing of cities was seen as a way of winning a war. I disagree with that perception but clearly a reasonable case can be made for it (shattering your enemy's will to fight is fundamental to war winning). Where we draw the line in war fighting is a matter of degree. But the killing of Jews and others considered politically undesirable was not a military strategy and was clearly wrong.
Allied bomber commanders had the choise to destroy military factories instead of performing those missions. The fact that they dicussed it while considering them, is a testament to the necessity of destroying the german military production machine instead of pouring resources in killing civilians.



Quote[/b] ](shattering your enemy's will to fight is fundamental to war winning).
Except it worked like Sun Tzu's boat burn. It only made them more determined to resist to anhilation.



Quote[/b] ]Comparing bombing with Nazi killings in their occupied territories is like equating a homeowner shooting an unarmed burglar with a burglar shooting an unarmed homeowner. Yes, in both cases people die - perhaps unnecessarily - but one act is clearly wrong whereas reasonable people can disagree on the morality of the other.
Of course that they are not even in the same scale. But by claiming the German people to be as an unarmed burglar being shoot down by a legitimate Allied howner is a very marginal comparation.

The civilians in Dresda and Hamburg were unarmed civilians just like those of London. Retaliation for London is understandable but not justifiable.

[Ironside]

I remember reading about a German soldier who was supposed to kill of the population of a village (anti-partizan activity http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif ) but he put down his weapon and placed himself among those who would get shot.
And his comrades then shot him.

Only a question, how many of you would do the same?

And about atrocities, they seems to different alot from unit to unit, and men from men. For example, in 1945 many of the Russian officers and some (especially) front-line units in the Russian army behaved perfectly, while other units was filled with murdering, (mass-)raping, cruel guys.
For example, they forced a German SS soldier to play piano non-stop, if he did stop the would shoot him. He played for 28 hours before he collapsed and got dragged away and shot.
Not that the Germans was any nicer. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

And years of propaganda and hatred seems to be working fine to get your soldiers commit atrocities, it worked for the Russian side and the German side.

And purely militarily, the German units performed very well.

[econ21]

R'as al Ghul, I think the reason why people focus on German war crimes in WW2 is partly the scale. How many Poles died in WW2? - I heard a figure of 21%. How many European Jews died? - 6m with how many left? (I heard a figure 1m, not sure if it is accurate).

But the other reason for the focus is the Nazi ideology that motivated it just seems to have no redeeming virtues. Morally, it just seems a particularly perverted system of belief. It's the same reason South Africa under apartheid was regarded so harshly by the international community when some other parts of Africa had much worse abuses going on at times. We may disagree about economic systems, what acts are justified in war etc but most can agree against murderous racism.

But to be honest, I don't think many people regard these as essentially German war crimes anymore, as opposed to Nazi war crimes. Time moves on and anyway people understand how a country can be taken over by a bunch of gangsters.

[Aymar, I think we agree about strategic bombing.]

Edit: Ironside, your story about a German soldier being killed for not commiting an atrocity is not universal. Daniel Goldhagen's book "Hitler's Willing Executioners" has several instances of German soldiers refusing to commit atrocities and suffering no reprisals.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Ironside @ June 08 2004,12:15)]I remember reading about a German soldier who was supposed to kill of the population of a village (anti-partizan activity http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif ) but he put down his weapon and placed himself among those who would get shot.
And his comrades then shot him.

Only a question, how many of you would do the same?
Much less than 1%...

I could bable on that I would be within the 1%, but that is not something one can judge at a distance.



Quote[/b] ]And about atrocities, they seems to different alot from unit to unit, and men from men. For example, in 1945 many of the Russian officers and some (especially) front-line units in the Russian army behaved perfectly, while other units was filled with murdering, (mass-)raping, cruel guys.
Yes. That is quite a good point of discussion. I mentioned earlier that personal education was paramount in setting example. Even more so if the person involved is an officer commanding soldiers.



Quote[/b] ]For example, they forced a German SS soldier to play piano non-stop, if he did stop they would shoot him. He played for 28 hours before he collapsed and got dragged away and shot.
Not that the Germans was any nicer. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Of course not. In the eastern front, due to the unspeakable atrocities commited by Germans, the resentment and hate accumulated by the Russians grew to unbelievable levels. After the tides turned, retaliation was taken as a compulsory demand. Most Russian soldiers decided that they had to exert revenge. Brutality, torture, assassination and rape were the norm.



Quote[/b] ]And years of propaganda and hatred seems to be working fine to get your soldiers commit atrocities, it worked for the Russian side and the German side.
Yeap. I agree. The brainwash system implemented by guys like Goebels and such, was paramount in the radicalization of ideas.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Simon Appleton @ June 08 2004,12:38)]R'as al Ghul, I think the reason why people focus on German war crimes in WW2 is partly the scale. How many Poles died in WW2? - I heard a figure of 21%. How many European Jews died? - 6m with how many left? (I heard a figure 1m, not sure if it is accurate).

But the other reason for the focus is the Nazi ideology that motivated it just seems to have no redeeming virtues. Morally, it just seems a particularly perverted system of belief. It's the same reason South Africa under apartheid was regarded so harshly by the international community when some other parts of Africa had much worse abuses going on at times. We may disagree about economic systems, what acts are justified in war etc but most can agree against murderous racism.

But to be honest, I don't think many people regard these as essentially German war crimes anymore, as opposed to Nazi war crimes. Time moves on and anyway people understand how a country can be taken over by a bunch of gangsters.
Great post, Simon Appleton http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif



Quote[/b] ][Aymar, I think we agree about strategic bombing.]
Great. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif



Quote[/b] ]Edit: Ironside, your story about a German soldier being killed for not commiting an atrocity is not universal. Daniel Goldhagen's book "Hitler's Willing Executioners" has several instances of German soldiers refusing to commit atrocities and suffering no reprisals.
Yes, I've heard a couple ones too. But how many escaped without reprisals and how many didn't?

[R'as al Ghul]

Quote[/b] (Simon Appleton @ June 08 2004,19:38)]R'as al Ghul, I think the reason why people focus on German war crimes in WW2 is partly the scale. How many Poles died in WW2? - I heard a figure of 21%. How many European Jews died? - 6m with how many left? (I heard a figure 1m, not sure if it is accurate).

But the other reason for the focus is the Nazi ideology that motivated it just seems to have no redeeming virtues. Morally, it just seems a particularly perverted system of belief. It's the same reason South Africa under apartheid was regarded so harshly by the international community when some other parts of Africa had much worse abuses going on at times. We may disagree about economic systems, what acts are justified in war etc but most can agree against murderous racism.

But to be honest, I don't think many people regard these as essentially German war crimes anymore, as opposed to Nazi war crimes. Time moves on and anyway people understand how a country can be taken over by a bunch of gangsters.
Hey Simon,

Thanks for the nice reply. It's good to hear. As I said it's difficult as a German. It happened to me quite a few times that while being in different countries people who found out that I'm German said things like "Oh German? Cool Heil Hitler". Thats not exactly what I expected. It's disturbing to be brought into context with actions and ideologies that I have no relation to and am not responsible for, because I wasn't even born at that time.
It seems as if all Germans have to live with the dirty spot on their vest. We are told all our school life that we have to feel responsible and guilty. This goes so far, that at the moment it is impossible to openly criticize Israel which IMO uses some of the SS-methods today. If you drive together the people of a village by the use of guns, put them into darkened busses and drive them off without telling them where to (happened in Gaza and West bank several times), I consider this an inhuman action quite comparable to German SS ethnic cleansing methods. The only difference is that the Palestines weren't shot after.

Back on the Topic, I agree that the sheer inhumanity to regard other people as subhumans (as in the Nazi & Apartheid regimes) is most disgusting and is probably the cause why this still fascinates us (in a bad way)

To Aymar,

you wrote

Quote[/b] ]My point was preciselly the point of the individual, not of the nation iteself. It's hard to distinguish when it's the case of the free will an individual, or the Nation's orders to which he is subjected too. I was hoping for a bigger compreension on that matter when I innitiated the thread.
I'm sorry that I got carried away. It's an emotional topic for some of us. I assume that the strong propaganda and the possibilty to take revenge for the disgrace of Versailles (the treaty after WW1) motivated a lot of the soldiers. Scientific research abot human race differences (eugenics?) was also very popular (not only in Germany) and may have supported the thinking about jews, gypsies etc.

Regards

R'as

Edit: Yesterday in the MP-Lobby some of the members thought it would be funny to post things like "Death to all jews", "Six millions isn't enough", lots of "HeilHitler" etc. As I was absent for a few weeks I found that a bit disturbing and I hope it's not the rule by now. They were warned by others about the Chat-Monitor but didn't bother to stop. Stupid morons...

[SwordsMaster]

Quote[/b] (Ironside @ June 08 2004,18:15)]I remember reading about a German soldier who was supposed to kill of the population of a village (anti-partizan activity http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif ) but he put down his weapon and placed himself among those who would get shot.
And his comrades then shot him.

Only a question, how many of you would do the same?

And about atrocities, they seems to different alot from unit to unit, and men from men. For example, in 1945 many of the Russian officers and some (especially) front-line units in the Russian army behaved perfectly, while other units was filled with murdering, (mass-)raping, cruel guys.
For example, they forced a German SS soldier to play piano non-stop, if he did stop the would shoot him. He played for 28 hours before he collapsed and got dragged away and shot.
Not that the Germans was any nicer. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

And years of propaganda and hatred seems to be working fine to get your soldiers commit atrocities, it worked for the Russian side and the German side.

And purely militarily, the German units performed very well.
Well, 10 million russians died in ww2, you cant really blame them.... I think they are the only country in the world hat could lose 10 million people and still win.

Have you seen the beginning of "Enemy at the gates" that film depicts pretty well Stalin´s "policy" about the war.

[king steven]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ June 07 2004,13:02)]
read Hitler's public speeches against the Jews and other "sub-humans" and the public atrocities and crimes the Nazis were committing in the country.

do u happen 2 have those speeches please

cheers KS

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (R'as al Ghul @ June 09 2004,04:35)]To Aymar,

you wrote

Quote[/b] ]My point was preciselly the point of the individual, not of the nation iteself. It's hard to distinguish when it's the case of the free will an individual, or the Nation's orders to which he is subjected too. I was hoping for a bigger compreension on that matter when I innitiated the thread.
I'm sorry that I got carried away. It's an emotional topic for some of us. I assume that the strong propaganda and the possibilty to take revenge for the disgrace of Versailles (the treaty after WW1) motivated a lot of the soldiers.
The Versailles Treaty was an humillianting proof of England's and France's greedy ambitions on German colonies, as well as their will to bend Germany in to not thinking of rising again. Unfortunatelly for WW2's dead, they tought wrong...



Quote[/b] ]Scientific research abot human race differences (eugenics?) was also very popular (not only in Germany) and may have supported the thinking about jews, gypsies etc.
Eugenics is not study of races:

Eugenics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics)

Do not forget that it was part of the Nazi doctrine and it was regime policy. Of course they had to teach it, to legitimate them, even if scientifical facts had nothing to do with what they teach.



Quote[/b] ]Edit: Yesterday in the MP-Lobby some of the members thought it would be funny to post things like "Death to all jews", "Six millions isn't enough", lots of "HeilHitler" etc. As I was absent for a few weeks I found that a bit disturbing and I hope it's not the rule by now. They were warned by others about the Chat-Monitor but didn't bother to stop. Stupid morons...
That is sick. But brains are a requirement for a human, you know? Could they pass as one? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

[ah_dut]

I agree that the majority of crimes were performed by SS cowards. however i am of the opinion that the holocaust was the largest systematic genocide in history. i also believe that bo country is free of guilt no one is perfect

[king steven]

i don't suppose any1 could give/enlighten me with complete
history of the SS (hitler's police)

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[R'as al Ghul]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 10 2004,00:46)]Eugenics is not study of races:

Eugenics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics)

Do not forget that it was part of the Nazi doctrine and it was regime policy. Of course they had to teach it, to legitimate them, even if scientifical facts had nothing to do with what they teach.
Well,

while my definition may not have been exactly correct I think it fitted my point. The Link you provide says it too, I think.


Quote[/b] ]In modern usage, it more commonly refers to human selective reproduction with the intent to create children with desirable traits, especially those that best meet some ideal of racial purity ("positive" eugenics), as well as elimination of individuals carrying undesirable traits ("negative" eugenics)....Germany under Adolf Hitler was infamous for its eugenics program, which attempted to maintain a "pure" German race. Among other acts, the Nazis performed extensive, often cruel, experimentation on live human beings to test their genetic theories....The nation that had the second largest Eugenics movement was the United States. Beginning with Connecticut in 1896, many states enacted marriage laws with eugenic criteria, prohibiting anyone who was "epileptic, imbecile or feeble-minded" from marrying....Almost all non-Catholic western nations adopted some Eugenics legislation, with the notable exception of Britain. Sweden forcibly sterilized 62,000 "unfits" as part of a eugenics program over a forty year period...Similar incidents occurred in Canada, Australia, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Switzerland and Iceland for people the government declared to be mentally deficient.

In fact, many nations sent exploring teams around the world to research the differences between human races in the name of eugenics. The results lead some people to the assumption that some races (white of course) are superior by nature. It was a popular thought not only in Germany. Of course the Germans followed this perverted conclusion to the bitter end. But I would guess that other colonial powers also didn't consider their Sherpas, boys, native servants and whatever as equal. The difference would be true.

Apart from that I think we agree on most of the points.

Regards
R'as

Edit: Just reread the quote because I stumbled over the word positive in relation to pure race. Ok it's put in quotation marks, but "racial purity" is something that doesn't exist anymore and if it would, it would lead the human race nowhere. We need more mixture for more tolerance and acceptance.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (R'as al Ghul @ June 16 2004,08:58)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 10 2004,00:46)]Eugenics is not study of races:

Eugenics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics)

Do not forget that it was part of the Nazi doctrine and it was regime policy. Of course they had to teach it, to legitimate them, even if scientifical facts had nothing to do with what they teach.
Well,

while my definition may not have been exactly correct I think it fitted my point. The Link you provide says it too, I think.


Quote[/b] ]In modern usage, it more commonly refers to human selective reproduction with the intent to create children with desirable traits, especially those that best meet some ideal of racial purity ("positive" eugenics), as well as elimination of individuals carrying undesirable traits ("negative" eugenics)....Germany under Adolf Hitler was infamous for its eugenics program, which attempted to maintain a "pure" German race. Among other acts, the Nazis performed extensive, often cruel, experimentation on live human beings to test their genetic theories....The nation that had the second largest Eugenics movement was the United States. Beginning with Connecticut in 1896, many states enacted marriage laws with eugenic criteria, prohibiting anyone who was "epileptic, imbecile or feeble-minded" from marrying....Almost all non-Catholic western nations adopted some Eugenics legislation, with the notable exception of Britain. Sweden forcibly sterilized 62,000 "unfits" as part of a eugenics program over a forty year period...Similar incidents occurred in Canada, Australia, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Switzerland and Iceland for people the government declared to be mentally deficient.
Correct. But it is an alteration to the definition.



Quote[/b] ]In fact, many nations sent exploring teams around the world to research the differences between human races in the name of eugenics. The results lead some people to the assumption that some races (white of course) are superior by nature. It was a popular thought not only in Germany. Of course the Germans followed this perverted conclusion to the bitter end. But I would guess that other colonial powers also didn't consider their Sherpas, boys, native servants and whatever as equal. The difference would be true.
But nowhere near the Nazi's approach. That one was of a monstruos extreme vileness.



Quote[/b] ]Edit: Just reread the quote because I stumbled over the word positive in relation to pure race. Ok it's put in quotation marks, but "racial purity" is something that doesn't exist anymore and if it would, it would lead the human race nowhere. We need more mixture for more tolerance and acceptance.
And for less probability of a limited gene pool to reinforce the appearance of genetic diseases. Remember Isceland's case: they are one of the most genetically equal populations and have greater problems with genetic diseases due to a smaller gene pool.

[mercian billman]

Quote[/b] (king steven @ June 16 2004,08:19)]i don't suppose any1 could give/enlighten me with complete
history of the SS (hitler's police)

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif
Here's a website you can check out:

http://www.feldgrau.com/ss.html

Also check out,

http://www.feldgrau.com/ssorg.html

Hope this helps,
Billman

[PanzerJaeger]

Well im German and my grandfather was a panzer commander on the eastern front until he was killed at kursk. Im proud of him and his actions.

In fact, im in the minority on this one, but i really feel no shame for the invasion of the USSR. France and the rest of Europe yes, but the USSR, no. The russians killed tons more people than the Germans, but ov course the Germans get the bad rap. Not to mention Dresden... a huge military target there. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Sure the Germans did terrible things during the war, but so did the Russians, the Japanese, and yes even the Anglo alliance.

Dont get me wrong, im no nazi apologist, but i do find it frustrating that the crimes of all these other countries can be forgotten, while the nazis are continually dredged back up and compared to a contemporary politicion or watever to discredit him.

As for German soldiers... the best, always have been, always will be.

[Ser Clegane]

Quote[/b] (PanzerJager @ June 30 2004,03:25)]In fact, im in the minority on this one, but i really feel no shame for the invasion of the USSR. France and the rest of Europe yes, but the USSR, no. The russians killed tons more people than the Germans
That's quite a scary statement you make here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

So you are saying that because under Stalin millions of Russians were killed it was OK for Germany to invade Russia and slaughter some more millions of Russians?

Now that's what I would call really twisted...

Or are you trying to tell us that Germany was trying to "liberate" the Russian people?

[Leodegar]

Quote[/b] (Ser Clegane @ June 30 2004,11:42)]
Quote[/b] (PanzerJager @ June 30 2004,03:25)]In fact, im in the minority on this one, but i really feel no shame for the invasion of the USSR. France and the rest of Europe yes, but the USSR, no. The russians killed tons more people than the Germans
That's quite a scary statement you make here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

So you are saying that because under Stalin millions of Russians were killed it was OK for Germany to invade Russia and slaughter some more millions of Russians?

Now that's what I would call really twisted...

Or are you trying to tell us that Germany was trying to "liberate" the Russian people?
i'm with you Ser Clegane.

another's crime never can be an alibi for your crime. and the nazis sure didn't intervene because of humanitarian reasons.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (PanzerJager @ June 30 2004,03:25)]Well im German and my grandfather was a panzer commander on the eastern front until he was killed at kursk. Im proud of him and his actions.

In fact, im in the minority on this one, but i really feel no shame for the invasion of the USSR. France and the rest of Europe yes, but the USSR, no. The russians killed tons more people than the Germans, but ov course the Germans get the bad rap.

Sure the Germans did terrible things during the war, but so did the Russians, the Japanese, and yes even the Anglo alliance.

Dont get me wrong, im no nazi apologist, but i do find it frustrating that the crimes of all these other countries can be forgotten, while the nazis are continually dredged back up and compared to a contemporary politicion or watever to discredit him.
I agree with Ser Clegane and Leodegar.

You can be apreciative of your grandfather's duty, but in no way excuse the reasons for the invasion of the USSR or the start of the WW2. That has no excuse whatsoever. By ellecting Hitler and the Nazis, the German people were responsible by the events that lead to WW2, the Holocaust and the deaths of millions of innocents, wheter they were British, Americans, French, Russian, etc...

Nazi ideology, supported by the greater part of the German population, was, far and away, responsible for most of the extermination operations of innocents altrough Europe. Contrary to other coutries in the war, Germany was the only one that engaged in organized, systematic, search and extermination of civilian populations. The other nations warcrimes were perpretated as disorganized, ocasional and reactional events. Some exceptions like Dresda ocurred, but those have nothing to do with the Nazi regime of state-established, organised, systematic killings.

When I refer Germany's warcrimes, I'm not just talking about the 6 million Jews executed, but of the millions of Polish, Checks, Ukranians (who recieved very well the Germans until the SS started killing them), etc...

So, accordingly, you can say that, but you are definetelly being uniformed or very biased while commenting such a serious subject.




Quote[/b] ]As for German soldiers... the best, always have been, always will be.
That is a matter of oppinion. The individual courage, in most cases, is the important piece on the equation.

[PanzerJaeger]

Both regimes were evil and killed millions... dont forget russia invaded finland and helped in the invasion of poland. They were hardly innocent both internally in their own country or externally toward their neighbors.

The way i see it is they were two destructive ideaologies bent on expanding their empires. Germany simply took the initiative while Russia was suffering from the purges. Both nations were on a collision course however, it was just a matter of when and where.

[PanzerJaeger]

Quote[/b] ]Nazi ideology, supported by the greater part of the German population, was, far and away, responsible for most of the extermination operations of innocents altrough Europe. Contrary to other coutries in the war, Germany was the only one that engaged in organized, systematic, search and extermination of civilian populations. The other nations warcrimes were perpretated as disorganized, ocasional and reactional events. Some exceptions like Dresda ocurred, but those have nothing to do with the Nazi regime of state-established, organised, systematic killings.


Then what were the gulags for?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Maybe I'm being naive or stupid or something, but...

I remember reading a book about Erwin Rommel. In it, towards the end of the book (and thereby the end of Rommel's life and the end of the war), Rommel was quoted saying something along the lines of 'Let's end that Jew business, make peace with the Western allies, and concentrate on Russia' (I did not at all quote Rommel, just got the jist of it, I hope - this is mostly from memory).

My guess is, most Germans thought about it like that. I distinctly remember Rommel referring to the Holocaust as "that Jew business". It wasn't a topic for everyday discussion, and it had some shame in it. But not enough, not nearly enough. Between propaganda and resident anti-semitism, the average German probably did not think of Jews as an equal (I hope my guess is off, I'm just speculating). So the crimes were more of an embarrisment than a terrible tradegy/terrible injustice. But the average German probably also deeply feared and loathed the USSR, and realized it was the more terrible, if not more powerful, foe between the Western allies and the Russians.

But moral judgement aside, German infanrty was darn good, indeed. But our American boys stilled whipped the German boys.

[Stefan the Berserker]

The Waffen-SS was the most loyal (Nazi) Armed Force between 1933-1945 in Germany, they were never in direct command by the Wehrmacht an its Officers. It was started as a facist Militia in the 20s and thought for bringing Shitler to power with a Revolution. After the Size of Power in 1933 they became somehow a second Army, next to the Reichswehr, now for the Opposite case: The SS (Schutzstaffel / Protector Squad) choose its members for loyality and their will to follow Shitler, at first they were kept as a kind of Guard to defend the Nazi-Regime from possible attempts of a Revolution (through the forbidden Partys SPD and KPD still got a strong Fellowship, incase of the KPD-Communists even organised Militias). The Nazi-Gouverment was fully established when the President of the Empire Paul von Hindenburg died and the Parlament was removed in 1935. The SS continued to persecute any Enemy inside the Empire, as Communists, Jews, Socialdemocraths, too-religious-Catholics and Disabled people. When the War began the SS expanded this Mission to the occupied Regions and pro-german Nations (like Hungary or Slowakia). They did the most things we would call a "Warcrime", they saw it as duty and it was the only purpose of that organisation. The Organisation and purpose of the SS is identical to the Soviet NKWD, the Fedayeen-Saddam, Red Kymers and equal in Despotic Regimes: Remove the Enemy of the System, they way HOW is not important SUCCSESS is what matters.

[Dramicus]

Quote[/b] (Ser Clegane @ June 30 2004,05:42)]So you are saying that because under Stalin millions of Russians were killed it was OK for Germany to invade Russia and slaughter some more millions of Russians?

Now that's what I would call really twisted...

Or are you trying to tell us that Germany was trying to "liberate" the Russian people?
Do you know why Russia lost over 20 million people? Its because they had absolutely no regard for life what so ever... The Russian tactics comprised of swarm the enemy with insanely overwhelming strength of numbers untill they ran out of ammunition... The Russians launched wave after wave of attacks with infantry against entrenched machinegun postitions, to the point where the ground could no longer be seen.

It was so bad that many German soldiers committed suicide because they couldnt stand the slaughter any more... The Russians are completly responsible for their military losses, it is their fault that an entire generation was wiped out...

My Great Grand father fought in world war 1 as well as World War 2. He fought on the eastern front and fought for the defence of Berlin. My Grand father fought in the invasion of France and was then shipped over to the Eastern Front, he fought in Stalingrad where he was wounded and was brought back to Germany. ALL of my relatives fought In World War two, most were killed to the extent that I am almost the last of my family line.

The German soldier was valiant and honourable. Regardless of what he was fighting for he did his duty to his people and his nation with the upmost of his ability in many instances fighting to the very last man. If anyone knows the true meaning of sacrifice it is the German Soldier.

I am truly proud of my nation, I feel no guilt, no remorse, only an unwavering sense of national pride. I do, however feel anger at the fact that Germany is put down and insulted at every twist and turn, and that all the actions of every other nations are put aside and forgotten.

The Germans fought against impossible odds and although all logical sense said that they could never win, they continued to fight and in their effort almost overcame what may have been seen as fate.

Were war to break out now, I would give up everything that I have in order to return to Germany and serve in defense of my Nation.

[Ser Clegane]

Quote[/b] (Dramicus @ July 03 2004,14:38)]
Quote[/b] (Ser Clegane @ June 30 2004,05:42)]So you are saying that because under Stalin millions of Russians were killed it was OK for Germany to invade Russia and slaughter some more millions of Russians?

Now that's what I would call really twisted...

Or are you trying to tell us that Germany was trying to "liberate" the Russian people?
Do you know why Russia lost over 20 million people? Its because they had absolutely no regard for life what so ever... The Russian tactics comprised of swarm the enemy with insanely overwhelming strength of numbers untill they ran out of ammunition... The Russians launched wave after wave of attacks with infantry against entrenched machinegun postitions, to the point where the ground could no longer be seen.

It was so bad that many German soldiers committed suicide because they couldnt stand the slaughter any more... The Russians are completly responsible for their military losses, it is their fault that an entire generation was wiped out...

My Great Grand father fought in world war 1 as well as World War 2. He fought on the eastern front and fought for the defence of Berlin. My Grand father fought in the invasion of France and was then shipped over to the Eastern Front, he fought in Stalingrad where he was wounded and was brought back to Germany. ALL of my relatives fought In World War two, most were killed to the extent that I am almost the last of my family line.

The German soldier was valiant and honourable. Regardless of what he was fighting for he did his duty to his people and his nation with the upmost of his ability in many instances fighting to the very last man. If anyone knows the true meaning of sacrifice it is the German Soldier.

I am truly proud of my nation, I feel no guilt, no remorse, only an unwavering sense of national pride. I do, however feel anger at the fact that Germany is put down and insulted at every twist and turn, and that all the actions of every other nations are put aside and forgotten.

The Germans fought against impossible odds and although all logical sense said that they could never win, they continued to fight and in their effort almost overcame what may have been seen as fate.

Were war to break out now, I would give up everything that I have in order to return to Germany and serve in defense of my Nation.
Yes, I know the reasons why Russia lost so many soldiers.

Yes, I know that the Russian leadership was brutal and did not regard the lives of the Russian people very much.

But to imply that this gave Germany the right to invade Russia and slaughter civilians is unacceptable IMO.

Fine with me if you say that Stalin was a tyrant that has not been any better than Hitler and would have deserved to be removed - but does that mean that the Russian people deserved that German invaders came to Russia to either subjugate or kill the Russian people? I think not.


Quote[/b] ]
The Germans fought against impossible odds and although all logical sense said that they could never win, they continued to fight and in their effort almost overcame what may have been seen as fate.


Germany fought against impossible odds not it was forced to do so and had to defend itself against these odds. The German leadership stupidly chose to fight these odds to gain more power and imposed a destruvtive war with its consequences on the German people (and at least partly the German people happily followed its leadership in this destructive course). This is hardly anything somebody can be proud of. Starting a war of aggression against "impossible odds" and driving your country into destruction and ruin is not heroic - is is stupid and criminal.

My grandfather also fought in Russia and died there - this does not make me proud, it makes me sad because his life has been wasted for nothing. My father lost his father and my grandmother lost her husband. For what? For the megalomania of a madman. In addition to that my father's family lost their home when they had to flee from Silesia as Russian troops advanced after the the war of aggression failed and backfired.



Quote[/b] ]
he did his duty to his people and his nation


The German soldier at best thought he fought for his people and his nation. In reality the German soldiers wasted their lives because some people thought it would be a good idea to make the German people beleive that they are superior to all other people and should therefore take the lands of other poeple and subjugate them.


Quote[/b] ]
I am truly proud of my nation, I feel no guilt, no remorse, only an unwavering sense of national pride. I do, however feel anger at the fact that Germany is put down and insulted at every twist and turn, and that all the actions of every other nations are put aside and forgotten.


Quite a myth that only German is put down and accused of the committed atrocities. The atrocities of Stalin and of Japan during WWII are also remembered and often discussed and you see for example numerous for references to them in discussions on this board. What makes German atrocities unique is the scale and the "industrial" methodology of the genocide against Jews.
Perhaps what makes you believe that German atrocities get more attention than the atrocities committed by other countries is the fact that Germany actually accepts the burden of its horrible history instead of hushing it up or denying it.
And the fact that we openly face our past, take the responsibilty and see it as our duty to prevent such things from ever happening again is what I would be proud of as a German.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Beautifull reply, most esteemed Ser Clegane... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif

[econ21]

Dramicus, sorry but I think you are talking nonesense. The Russians did NOT lose 20 million people in battle. Most of the dead were not soldiers and a good proportion of Russian soldiers died after surrendering. To say the German soldiers killed so many Russians because they could not stand the slaughter is a bizarre, Orwellian big lie - the Germans started mass executions in Russia within months or so of invading.

The early Eastern front battles were not mass slaughter - the German attacks were extremely successful and the Russians surrendered in droves. IIRC, the Russians lost the majority of their army in the first year of the conflict and were outnumbered after those initial losses. Quite frankly, the ones who fought back amazingly against the odds were the Russians in the winter of 1941 and in 1942. Yes, the Germans fought bravely throughout, but by 1943, I sympathise with the contemporary American perspective - they were too dumb to realise it was hopeless.

I suspect not a small part of the amazing Russian fightback in late 1941 and 1942 was due to the fact that the Russian soldiers learnt what happened to the majority of their comrades who surrendered. When your enemy will kill or starve you if you surrender, you may as well fight to the death. It really was quite an achievement of the disgusting German war machine that they managed to make Stalin's regime something that millions of Russian soldiers were willing to die for.

As for Russians relying on human wave attacks, well maybe it happened to a degree, but Russia did not have the manpower edge to get away with this across the board. It was not Zulus vs redcoats stuff. The Russians had some great kit - lots of heavy artillery, good AT guns, excellent tanks and fighter-bombers etc etc. They gradually learnt to use them to good effect to blunt the skilful German panzer thrusts - Kursk is a case in point. They ripped the heart out of the German war machine in the destruction of Army Group Centre through just the kind of armoured and air supported thrusts that the Germans pioneered.

BTW, aren't we past the stage of wanting to die for our countries? It's BS like that which makes me more symapthetic to the much reviled European federalists.

[Dramicus]

First of all, I wasnt supporting or condoning National Socialism. It seems that whenever an American or British, etc person is proud of their nation, then they are patriotic but if a German is ever proud, then they are automatically a Nazi. Which also kinda also applies to the Russians and communism...

It is certianally not a myth that Germany is constantly put down, perhaps it is different in Europe, but in North America, it occurs almost as soon as anyone discovers that you are German. World war 2 is always brought up and people always assume that you are racist. Maybe I am living in one of the most narrow-minded places on the continent, but it occurs every day.

German soldiers did commit suicide on a regular basis when fighting on the Russian front, especially during the winter. I have read countless first hand accounts ( this is an example (http://www.landser.de/) ) My grandfather even told of the same things when he fought in Stalingrad. He also experienced one of the Soviet "Human Wave" attacks first hand. He said that everyone was glad when the winter came, because the snow covered the bodies.

and BTW what is wrong with wanting to serve one's country?

PS: perhaps you guys are getting the wrong tone from my post, its usually hard to get emotions across through text alone...

edit: one last thing, I never stated that Germany had the right to attack Russia...

edit again: I re-read your post, and it seems that you continually assiciate what I posted with the German leadership, I was refering to the German soldiers only, I never mentioned the leadership or their choices...

Also, who said that I was not proud that Germany was openly accepting what happened and was working to ensure that it never would occur again?

[mercian billman]

What I don't understand is why we stigmatize Germans for their atrocities but, not the Japanese http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Ser Clegane]

Quote[/b] (mercian billman @ July 04 2004,01:40)]What I don't understand is why we stigmatize Germans for their atrocities but, not the Japanese http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
You defintely have a point here - but what would like to see is not that others stigmatize the Japanese, but that the Japanese take responsibility for their history. One example is e.g., the atomic bomb museum in Nagasaki were the drastic and terrible effects of the bomb are shown (and rightfully so) but all the things that ultimately led to the bomb being dropped are conveniently left out.
Please note that I do not want to start a discussion about the bomb here - I am rather torn regarding my opinion on this issue and my point is that a exhibtion on the bomb should cover all aspects of its history.

It would earn japan a lot of respect if a Japanese Prime Minister would show the strength to do this in China:

http://schueler.freepage.de/cgi-bin/feets/freepage_ext/41030x030A/rewrite/maverrick/Kniefall_Brandt.jpg

[metatron]

People have a habit of making the Germans "the worst". I suppose it has to do with movies; people are more likely to go watch a movie about Jews and gas chambers, than they are about death marches or people forced to eat their own children because of Stalin's policies.

The start of the last century was one of mankind's darkests moments. Since then, only the Germans have made an effort to redeem themselves.

[lonewolf371]

Hmm, just on a side note when we posted about WWII on GameFAQs we could always avoid a flame war... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Now I will say now I have an enormous distaste for the German government of World War II, and now after studying him more I have a pretty big hatred of Stalin as well, but if I and I believe most people were to pick between the two: which one served its country better? It would probably be Stalin. Hitler ruined the lives and economical structure of his country, Stalin ruined the lives of his country but strengthened its economy and military in the true Russian fashion: if by sacrificing a life the goal becomes more achievable, by all means carry on This policy was used rather widely by many Russian leaders before the Soviet Union, Stalin is only widely discredited because he existed in a time when the common man and his life, family, and home were deemed important by those in power. Hitler, however utterly destroyed his country, trusting no man's opinion but his own. He killed of millions in his own purges, but did not do anything to make up for it. Germany's economy remained in the sh****r and he lost the war. Not to mention during the war he killed off his best generals and didn't even think of a peace agreement when the time would have been most favorable. Personally, I have no doubt that in both World Wars, Germany was the single most powerful nation in the world. IMHO if it had had a better leader in one of those conflicts, it might very well have achieved its dream of taking over the world.

[Pellinor]

I would recommmend reading "The Rommel Papers", edited by Sir Basil Liddell-Hart. It's essentially a lot of Rommel's diary, correspondence, and essays.

It is clear that Rommel was just not aware of a lot of what was going on, and was very surprised and shocked when he found some of it out. He also repeatedly complains that Hitler, Mussolini and OKH in general are lying to him, making false promises, obscuring important information, fabricating statistics, etc etc etc.

It is also interesting that even as early as 1943 Rommel was advocating peace with the West in order to focus on fending off Russia. He saw the war in the West as being merely a political issue, and thought that surrendering to the Western Allies would result in a change of government and loss of pride but not much more; but he considered that Stalin would, given the chance, destroy the German people before going on to do the same to the rest of Europe. This is pretty much a parallel to what Western Europe thought about the Cold War.

Note that this is one of the most senior people in the German military, able to travel around and talk to other senior military and political figures. What did the squaddie in the foxhole think, given that he was being systematically deceived?

The typical German soldier was, so far as I can tell, fighting to defend Germany and the German people. Unfortunately for him, the Government and the military were being run by people with entirely different agendas.

[Dramicus]

Quote[/b] (Pellinor @ July 05 2004,09:14)]I would recommmend reading "The Rommel Papers", edited by Sir Basil Liddell-Hart. It's essentially a lot of Rommel's diary, correspondence, and essays.

It is clear that Rommel was just not aware of a lot of what was going on, and was very surprised and shocked when he found some of it out. He also repeatedly complains that Hitler, Mussolini and OKH in general are lying to him, making false promises, obscuring important information, fabricating statistics, etc etc etc.

It is also interesting that even as early as 1943 Rommel was advocating peace with the West in order to focus on fending off Russia. He saw the war in the West as being merely a political issue, and thought that surrendering to the Western Allies would result in a change of government and loss of pride but not much more; but he considered that Stalin would, given the chance, destroy the German people before going on to do the same to the rest of Europe. This is pretty much a parallel to what Western Europe thought about the Cold War.

Note that this is one of the most senior people in the German military, able to travel around and talk to other senior military and political figures. What did the squaddie in the foxhole think, given that he was being systematically deceived?

The typical German soldier was, so far as I can tell, fighting to defend Germany and the German people. Unfortunately for him, the Government and the military were being run by people with entirely different agendas.
Which was exactaly the point that I was trying to get across before my entire post was by-passed and used as a stepping stone of an accusation of Nazism. The fact that I was talking solely about the German soldier and that I never mentioned the government or the political leaders within was completely ignored and the standard "you are a Nazi" arguement was spewed out in order to discredit what I said. It seems that this very same arguement is used absolutly every time someone speaks up in support of the Germans in ww2, check any argument, EVEN earlier in this thread and you will find the same. There is a reason for this but there is no point in stating it as it is the same reason for why is anti-bush then they are anti-america and vice versa.

[Ser Clegane]

Quote[/b] (Dramicus @ July 05 2004,09:29)]Which was exactaly the point that I was trying to get across before my entire post was by-passed and used as a stepping stone of an accusation of Nazism. The fact that I was talking solely about the German soldier and that I never mentioned the government or the political leaders within was completely ignored and the standard "you are a Nazi" arguement was spewed out in order to discredit what I said.
Chill down, Dramicus.

Firstly, I do not quite see where you have been accused of being a Nazi (feel free to show me the statement that offended you in such a way).

Secondly, you are saying that you are not trying to justify the German invasion of Russia - but then - why is your post a direct reply to my statement that is referring to a post were this justification is very obvious. What was the point you were trying to make with regard to my statement that you quoted in your post?

Your post implies that the 20 million dead Russians were all soldiers that were thrown at the German army by the cruel Soviet leadership and that these masses were valiantly fought off by the Wehrmacht.
What you decided to ignore completely in your post were the huge numbers of Russian civilians killed by the German army, many not as "collateral damage" but as executions - and it was not only the SS that committed these war crimes but also the Wehrmacht.

[lonewolf371]

True, the German invasion of the USSR did not above all things follow a policy of clemency. However during the Soviet advance to Berlin the Russians returned every favor offered to them by the Wehrmacht. Thousands of Germans were killed during the Soviet advance, and those that were taken prisoner were praded through Moscow after the war's end. In the end atrocities commited by the Soviets against the Germans (and their own people as well) probably exceeded what occured during the German advances.

PS: On a side note, in terms of dead the USSR did not lose quite 20 million soldiers, rather they lost more around 13.6, with some number wounded and missing. I can't remember the amount of civilians, but I'm sure it was high.

[Ser Clegane]

Quote[/b] (lonewolf371 @ July 05 2004,15:00)]those that were taken prisoner were praded through Moscow after the war's end

PS: On a side note, in terms of dead the USSR did not lose quite 20 million soldiers, rather they lost more around 13.6, with some number wounded and missing. I can't remember the amount of civilians, but I'm sure it was high.
AFAIK 2 million Soviet soldiers that were taken as prisoners by the German Wehrmacht died.


Quote[/b] ]
PS: On a side note, in terms of dead the USSR did not lose quite 20 million soldiers, rather they lost more around 13.6, with some number wounded and missing. I can't remember the amount of civilians, but I'm sure it was high.


Roughly 7 million dead civilians (so we have a total of 20 million dead in the Soviet Union).

If you charge up the Russian civilians killed by the German army against the German civilians killed by the Soviet army, I am sure the Wehrmacht will "win" this contest by a comfortable margin.

[econ21]

I owe Dramicus an apology - I saw his opening sentence that 20m Russians died because of their leadership and got angry. It just seemed like blaming the victim. I did not read the rest of his post carefully and imputed somethings to him that he did not say. But I did not accuse him of being a Nazi and find nothing in his posts to think that.

I am not sure why I got depressed at Dramicus's eagerness to defend his country. May be this reflects a difference in the attitudes of current land (the US) and that of his origin where I reside (Europe)? In America, people do talk proudly of defending their country - in Europe, the emphasis is more on peaceful means to avoid having to see it come to that.

It is clear with 9/11, that there are still threats to countries like America, Germany, Britain etc. and they do need people who are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to defend it. But in the face of the millions of dead in the wars in the last century, there is a side of me that would rather see militant patriotism wither away. I always admired Einstein's reaction to 1914:
"The world has gone mad."

[Dramicus]

Thank you Simon, I agree with you and I do suppose that the American "Defend our Country at all costs" view has rubbed off on me.

What I ment by the Nazi accusations, is that although no one went and outright said it, it seemed intended in the posts, again I know that its not always easy to get the exact message across over the internet and I too am also guilty of not reading your posts carefully enough. The reason that I was so quick to jump at such a conclusion is that around here, ive always experienced that if anyone speaks in support of the Germans, they are usually accused of being a Nazi in one way or another... Whats worse is that if anyone knows that you are German, they automatically assume that you are a Nazi, I am simply tired of having that stereotype thrust apon me. I apologise for leaping so quickly to that conclusion.

The reason for why I feel so strongly is that my family has a very long military history in Germany, one of which every member is proud of. In my direct line alone (which can be traced back to the 1200s) almost every male member has served in a German army at one time or another. One might say that the will to serve Germany in in my blood... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

It is, however the reason for my family line becoming almost extinct and Ser Clegane is right in stating that the war stole his grandfather from him, as well as the majority of my family members from me. However, my family was always known to fight with honor and discipline which has lead to many of my relatives recieving medals, of which I currently have the Iron cross 1st class of my Great Grandfather, issued during World War 1. This is why I would like to honor the sacrifices of my family instead of calling them wastes. It simply would not be fair to them

I would once again like to apologise to Simon and Ser Clegane for my rather quick accusations and I hope that there are no hard feelings...

[Ser Clegane]

Quote[/b] (Dramicus @ July 05 2004,19:07)]I would once again like to apologise to Simon and Ser Clegane for my rather quick accusations and I hope that there are no hard feelings...
No hard feelings, Dramicus (and I'm glad to see that you feel the same way)- I am aware that the whole topic of WWII and German guilt can get very emotional due to a lot of generalizations on one hand and very specific personal stories on the other hand (and often enough the specific and the general contradict each other).

As always I see it as a very positive aspect of this forum that usually we get out of these discussions with a better understanding and knowledge about other point of views instead of just flaming away.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Hetman]

I believe one of the biggest problems for Germany, even today, is the prussian heritage and 'the prussian spirit'.

You might not notice this but fighting against the odds is the old prussian custom - they fought this way in 7-years' war - and only miraculously survived, next they stupidly and arrogantly challenged Napoleon in 1806
and again they were almost annihilated and finally led the rest of German nation towards almost certain doom from 1939 to 1945.
Don't you think it was like walking along a blind alley ?

It is sad that 'the prussian spirit' conquered the rest of Germany and many of the Germans don't even know this, they don't know that Prussia murdered democracy in German countries, namely in Hamburg for example.

I'm not accusing only Germans for committing horrible crimes, but we cannot forget.
For many it is still rather fresh memory, for example this year german chancellor was invited to Warsow to join the celebration of Warsaw Uprising in 1944, when Germans destroyed 97 % of the old polish capital killing more than 50% of its inhabitants. There German army ( also Wehrmacht) commited horrible warcrimes - even used 'human shields' created from women and children captured during the Rising to protect their tanks and infantrymen.
I really hope Mr.Schroder is going to repeat Willy Brandt's gesture and kneel, this time, before the monument of Warsaw Uprising from 1944 as Brandt did before Warsaw Ghetto Uprising's monument.
Otherwise it won't be so easy to forgive...

I must add I'm not anti-german and my family suffered from Soviets rather than Germans ( my grandfather nearly avoided being killed in Katyn, and after the war he spent 7 years in prison just because he fought in Polish-Soviet war in 1920), but I was horrified when I read
some of posts in this thread.
Even in one Dark Angel post, one of these I like to kill so much with my Ulthwe Eldar ( one of my friends is a Dark Angel).


Regards Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ July 06 2004,09:21)]I believe one of the biggest problems for Germany, even today, is the prussian heritage and 'the prussian spirit'.

You might not notice this but fighting against the odds is the old prussian custom - they fought this way in 7-years' war - and only miraculously survived, next they stupidly and arrogantly challenged Napoleon in 1806
and again they were almost annihilated and finally led the rest of German nation towards almost certain doom from 1939 to 1945.
Don't you think it was like walking along a blind alley ?

It is sad that 'the prussian spirit' conquered the rest of Germany and many of the Germans don't even know this, they don't know that Prussia murdered democracy in German countries, namely in Hamburg for example.
I do not agree with your thesis, it is, in my opinion, a relative narrow-sighted attempt to pick one "trait" known from history and then try to explain it all using just this single argument. It is problematic already in a certain timeframe of history, but when stretched across several centuries up to today, it's really a bit lacking.

Also at the end of the 18th and beginning of the 19th century, Prussia was indeed a substantial military, economic and diplomatic power alone (despite its relatively small size), thus it was not at all a "stupid" attempt to declare war on Napoleon. They lost because the officer corps didn't make the necessary modifications to match the new combat style of field battles employed by Napoleon. This could be explained with a certain arrogance, but the potential for winning was there, in equipment, training and manpower. They could have picked a better time though

Another point I want to mention is democracy. How many countries actually had a democracy in the 19th to the beginning of 20th century? France, at least teporarily, the USA, and a constitutional monarchy in the UK. Democracy concepts just started to evolve at that time, monarchy was still the most common and accepted form of government. In this context it is also worth mentioned that the Prussian state was one of the most modern of that time, many reforms took place and civilians enjoyed relatively many rights (and duties too) compared to other contemporary states (such as the other German princedoms, Russia and also Poland, for example). The "Prussian Spirit" thus isn't as one-dimensional as you make it out to be, and certainly not the major contributor that thrust Germany into all the latter events.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Simon Appleton @ July 05 2004,16:51)]I always admired Einstein's reaction to 1914:
"The world has gone mad."
I think it was him that said something like this (not quite his exact words):


Quote[/b] ]"There are only two things we can be certain off. The first is the existance of the Universe. The second the existance of Inteligence... ...but I'm not quite sure about the later...

He was doubting man's sanity and inteligence when in war situations, etc...

[Dramicus]

actually it was:
Quote[/b] ]There are two things which are infinate in this universe, Human ignorance and Hydrogen.... and Im not too sure about the latter....

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Steppe Merc]

As an American, I don't blame all the German soldiers for what they did. Watching interviews of surving SS, lutwaffen, panzer drivers, and multiple other kinds of soldiers (soryy, I know little of the correct terms), I wouldn't classify all of them them as Nazis. Those would be the top ones, the ones in the concentration camps, most of the officers etc. Most grunts I wouldn't classify as Nazis. Of course, it's hard to think of people that are older than my grandpa (if he was still alive) as Nazis, but I doubt all bought into the whole crazy Nazi thing. Even some of the SS men said they joined so they wouldn't get stuck in the regular army. And no one side has perfectly angel soldiers, ever. It seems to me, the Americans hold up their pride so much, many are blinded to our shortcomings.
And as for the horribly attroctious acts, I agree that everyone should have been shot that participated. But if your one guy, how much can you do? And no one called all Union soldiers monsters, because of the raids by Sherman and Grant in the Civil War.
Of course, I was born over 40 years after WW2, so what do I know?

[PanzerJaeger]

Quote[/b] ]I am truly proud of my nation, I feel no guilt, no remorse, only an unwavering sense of national pride. I do, however feel anger at the fact that Germany is put down and insulted at every twist and turn, and that all the actions of every other nations are put aside and forgotten.


Dont let them make you feel guilty about this, theres nothing wrong with it. The stigmas associated with the common german soldier will pass with time, as will the constant insults directed towards Germany.

Its very hard to find any major world power that hasnt committed crimes against humanity.

Be proud of your rich German heritage and your family's sacrifices. Your relatives were a part of the greatest military the world's seen. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[lonewolf371]

The most surprising thing to me is that no one reacted angrily to my post about Stalin. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

As to the Prussian heritage, I've always admired it a little, but then again I play all sorts of war games so what do I know? Probably the nicest thing about it is that it probably knew better than the modern-day US about WHEN AND WHERE TO DECLARE A WAR AND HOW TO WAGE IT Our politicians make me so mad. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Dramicus @ July 06 2004,18:25)]actually it was:
Quote[/b] ]There are two things which are infinate in this universe, Human ignorance and Hydrogen.... and Im not too sure about the latter....

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
That's it. Thanks, Dramicus http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

[Rosacrux]

Quote[/b] (lonewolf371 @ July 07 2004,03:48)]The most surprising thing to me is that no one reacted angrily to my post about Stalin. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

As to the Prussian heritage, I've always admired it a little, but then again I play all sorts of war games so what do I know? Probably the nicest thing about it is that it probably knew better than the modern-day US about WHEN AND WHERE TO DECLARE A WAR AND HOW TO WAGE IT Our politicians make me so mad. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
The Prussian attitude during the 18th and 19th century was the most viable and certainly the most rewarding possible. At a time when jingoism was generally considered "a good thing" and most nations had to rely on a strong military and a viable set of alliances to make it through, a country that has an exemplar military and uses it wisely to gain land, money, prestige or whatever, is an exemplar country.

In the 20th century, when the betterment of the conditions for the lesser classes and the general rise of the living standards, the Prussian attitude was extremely outdated. Today it's more outdated than ever, I must say.

Jingoism is not the word of the day, people do not like war, people are not prepared to die so one or the other capitalist has a market for his products or cheap raw materials and labour. Nowadays, the real wars are being fought in the economic field and they are even more ruthless than the wars proper.

Of course, there is one exception: USA. The one and only advanced nation still having strong jingoistic tendancies and a population willing to fight and die for the sake of the mega-sharks of their economy.

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
...the victor writes the history...
_