The Ptolemaic army

[Ellesthyan]

We're all bitching about the ancient Egyptian army CA is giving the Ptolemies, but no one actually says what army they DID use. I've done a little research and compiled a possible armylist. It's possible I made mistakes

This is far from complete, far from 100% accuracy. I'll need your help to make it so

[Ellesthyan]

The Ptolomaic Empire

King Ptolomaeus III

Controls: Alexandria, Memphis, Thebe(south-egypt), Tripolis, Jerusalem, Nicosa (Cyprus), Antalis (south Anatolia).

Units
The units are based on a mixture of Greek Successor troops, with region specific troops from Africa and Syria. Historically the Ptolomaic army was almost exclusively made up of Greeks. Only after the Phyrric victory at Raphia the kings were forced to take up Egyptians in their armies.
Until Alexander the Great, he Egyptian armies consisted actually out of barely clothed Egyptian looking troops. No silly pharao hats though.
As far as I know, the Greek armies used by the Ptolomies had no real specialty compared to the other successors. Some variety could be given to a new king leading a more african army; The Ptolomies have access to the powerful Nubian and Libyan troops, as well as other region specific greek units.
It seems like the Ptolomies relied more on their naval power than on land forces, most probably because their main enemy the Seleucids were superior on the ground. Most of the fighting took place on their oversea colonies, but they were invaded by the Seleucids a few times in Syria, and they had some troubles with the Libyans to the west as well.

They can get Rhodian Slingers and Cretan Archers from their home-islands. Also they can recruit Cilician javelinmen (pirates...) from Cilicia.

Ptolomaic units (Greek, elite forces)
Ptolomaic units need the usual requirements, but have a higher support cost than usual.
Everywhere available unless otherwise stated.
Successor cavalry is of good quality, but not the best of the game. (best would be Parthian or Scythian etc.)

Royal Ptolomaic guard
Elite Successor cavalry with lances, heavy armour and shields. Exclusive from Alexandria.
Can dismount into royal bodyguards.

Ptolomaic light cavalry
regular successor light cavalry, with swords, javelins, light armour and small shields.

Ptolomaic heavy cavalry
regular successor heavy cavalry, with lances, medium armour and large shields.

Ptolomaic phalanx
regular Greek phalanx, with pikes, medium armour and large shields.

Ptolomaic Auxillia
regular Greek light swordsmen, with swords, light armour and small shields.

Ptolomaic Psiloi
regular Greek javelinmen, with javelins, swords and small shields.

Egyptian units (lesser-Greek, peasant forces)
Egyptian units have very low requirements, but are also low morale.
Everywhere available unless otherwise stated.
Egyptian units have 25% more than usual, as Egypt was a well populated area and therefore a lot of troops could be conscripted in times of need.

Egyptian Peasants
Peasant unit.

Egyptian archers
regular archers, with light armour.

Egyptian horse archers
good horse archers, armed with bows, spears, and light armour.

Egyptian warband
band of Egyptian peasants, who have had some kind of equipment and training.

Egyptian spearmen
regular spearmen, armed with spears, small shield, and light armour.

Bedouin Camels
Camels are a very good anti cavalry unit, as their smell and unusual looks scare horses Available all over the desert places.

Nubian units (excellent archers, spearmen)
Nubian units are excellent forces, with high morale and fighting capabilities, but with no armour. Their troops are more expensive than usual due to their mercenary status. They take two turns to build.
Available in Egypt and the Sahara province next to it.

Nubian archers
second best archer unit in the world (best would be Cretan), they are armed with bows, swords and small shields. They've got great accuracy, but almost no armour.

Nubian spearmen
Almost as good as the phalanx, these troops are fast and powerful, armed with spears and large shields. They are however vulnerable to missiles.

Nubian guard
The famous axemen that make up the Nubian guard are the elite of the Nubian armies. They can kill anything with their two handed axes; however they are unarmoured and very vulnerable.

Libyan units (excellent phalanx, elephants)
The Libyans were enemies and allies to the Ptolomies. Their troops are a little more expensive due to their mercenary status, but are frequently quite good.
Available in east Africa.

Libyan spearmen
Very good phalanx unit, used by (according to Time Commanders) Hannibal in his famous campaign.

Libyan chariots
I believe that chariots were extensively used in the whole world only a few decennia before the time frame. Therefore these are available for anyone willing to take up old traditions. One rider and one archer.

Libyan warband
Unarmoured swordsmen, fast.

Libyan Elephants
A little smaller elephants than the Seleucid ones, these animals are used by both the Ptolemies as the Carthageans. No armour or tower on them, only two riders with spears.

Siryan units (good medium infantry)
Available in the Syrian cities.

Syrian auxillery
Armed with bows, light armour, swords and small shields these bowmen can be used either as auxillery or as archers. However, do not expect them to battle it out in melee, they are best used in a flank attack.

Syrian slingers
The sling is a good weapon, and the Syrians use it to great respect. They've got a long range, but are vulnerable up close.

EDIT:
added Syrian auxillery and Nubian Guard. Changed Cataphractoi to heavy cavalry. Added mercenary status to the Nubian troops. Added Bedouin Camels. Added Syrian slingers.

[Ellesthyan]

As a side note, I did not include historical names. That was not on purpose, but more because I did not have the time to look them up. Any history buffs who happen to know them, please help

[hundurinn]

I like those units. Mixture of the good old Egypts and Greeks. That would be a good combination. Not only naked Egytians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

Nice piece of work done there Ellestyhan;

Some fine info about Ptolomaic forces is displayed here:
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/PtolemaicSuccessorDBM.html

I may add that the Nubians formed the Kushite Empire which also ruled all Egypt as the XXV Dynasty, and which only ceased several hundreds years after the RTW timeframe.

So Nubian infantry, cavalry and archers as well as Elephants were not directly avaiable to our ptolomaic empire..

Elephants were used by the Kushites and this Elephants were in turn traded with both "Egypt" and the Carthies. But we have no informaion about Kushite Elephants in battle - the same applies to Nubian cavalry as far as I know...

[The_Emperor]

very nice, would make a great MOD.

[Basileus]

Thats way better then what CA is giving us, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[alman9898]

libyan pikemen will be in the game because I heard of their use in TC but the carthage had 'um

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (alman9898 @ June 06 2004,19:42)]libyan pikemen will be in the game because I heard of their use in TC but the carthage had 'um
The egyptians were depicted in the TC episode Raphia as a largely greek based faction with a lot of greek units. I think it's fair to say we shouldn't use TC as a reference on how factions will be represented, CA would rather ignore huge amounts of history and records to just make things up...

[Steppe Merc]

Hopefully someone will change it in a mod, since it's probably to late, and they want to (for some foolish reason) please those only interested in a shallow, non-historical game.

[Leet Eriksson]

Syria were good for their archers,used as auxillary archers by the romans,used by other armies like the seleucids and Ptolemacs.

Also the Nubian archers were known for accuracy,so it might be a trade off,cretan archers can skirmish,but nubian archers could be more devastating if screened properly.

The rest of your units sound good,but i don't know wether the ptolemacs used cavalry archers and cataphract horses,since from what i understand their army is based on the macedonian one,so they rely on heavy infantry rather than cavalry.

[Leet Eriksson]

Might not be historically accurate,but just to give you a general idea on Later ptolemac army.

http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_42b_figure_1.htm

[Steppe Merc]

I surely hope one of the greats (BKB, Wes, the dudes on HTW), will fix this, or even better all of the greats working together. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif
But hopefully the core will be good enough for to make it the game it should have been.
Lord, deliver us from evil, and weirdo naked-barbarians and the fake Egyptians and all other upcoming disapointments http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Steppe Merc @ June 06 2004,19:49)]Lord, deliver us from evil, and weirdo naked-barbarians and the fake Egyptians and all other upcoming disapointments http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif
Too bad I'm not religious. If I was, I would say Amen.

[biguth dickuth]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 07 2004,04:01)]
Quote[/b] (Steppe Merc @ June 06 2004,19:49)]Lord, deliver us from evil, and weirdo naked-barbarians and the fake Egyptians and all other upcoming disapointments http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif
Too bad I'm not religious. If I was, I would say Amen.
Hehehe... my thoughts exactly

About the Seleucid army, i agree with faisal on the fact that the Ptolemaeoi shouldn't have cataphracts but macedonian-type heavy cavalry, but i have a slight disagreement on one point:

Quote[/b] ]The rest of your units sound good,but i don't know wether the ptolemacs used cavalry archers and cataphract horses,since from what i understand their army is based on the macedonian one,so they rely on heavy infantry rather than cavalry.
The Ptolemaeoi might have relied more on heavy infantry than cavalry because their heavy cavalry was beginning to decline, but that was not because their army was based on the macedonian.
In fact, Philip's and Alexander's macedonian army was primarely based on heavy cavalry.

I will also thank Ellesthyan for his search on the subject and i hope that, until the game reaches the selves, the subject will be thoroughly inspeced so that all of us modders can get to work immediately http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

That's the only hope, regarding the game, that i've got left anyway... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[Ragss]

Looks good, but also quite boring...

[Scipio]

I think a mod for this would be a great idea, therefore I'll indevour to learn how to mod in RTW, who else is with me? We dont have to stop at fixing Ptolemaic Egypt buit we can strive to make the game more historical in general.

[PSYCHO]

Where's the Jewish units?

[Ellesthyan]

Thanks people

Kushite Empire; good call. Nubians therefore get the mercenary status like the Libyans.

In Time Commanders the Libyan Phalanx were used by Hannibal, but that's no guarantee they will make it to the game. If they will the Libyan and Carthage factions will probably be able to use them, until the mod.

Thanks a lot about Syria I really didn't have a clue. However, that's another region with archers as it's famous unit...

You are probably correct about the Cataphractoi. I'll change it to heavy cavalry.
The Egyptian army before Alexander the Great did use horse archers (as their only cavalry I might say), so they are in the list. The Ptolomies did not use Egyptians in their armies until Raphia, and even later they would prefere Greek above Egyptian troops. Therefore I've decided to present a couple of possible troops, that the Ptolemies might not have used in reality. (because they loved themselves too much http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif)

The Ptolomies have many kinds of heavy and lighter spears, but also quite a variety of cavalry. None of them were too powerful. If you want to win with the Ptolemies you'll have to get yourself the best kind of army on the right place. You aren't going to win it one on one, mano on mano, but you've got such an amount of possibilities that you can win it with the rock-paper-scissors game. Besides your regular troops you can easily lay your hands on some top of the top archer units (Cretans, Nubians, Syrians) and you've got elephants

My Ptolemy army would therefore consist about a mainstay of Greek forces, the bulk would be Egyptian rabble, while on the flanks the elite would be Nubian and other "mercenary" forces.

Jewish units That's a splendid idea, Im sorry I forgot about them. Could you give me a hand and tell me what they were famous of?

[Leet Eriksson]

Jewish revolt were mainly warbands and peasants...though i don't know much about an organised jewish army.Besides the maccabean one,the foot soldiers were warbands and skirmishers/slingers,they also had Cavalry,heavier cavalry were made up of jewish nobles i think,lighter cavalry were of the lower class.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Scipio @ June 06 2004,23:43)]I think a mod for this would be a great idea, therefore I'll indevour to learn how to mod in RTW, who else is with me? We dont have to stop at fixing Ptolemaic Egypt buit we can strive to make the game more historical in general.
I agree. I had that same idea in the thread about IGN Egyptian Units. The more people with modding experience we gather the better. But anyone will be helpefull. The amount of work will be massive.

Maube we should start a thread in the Colosseum and another in the Monastery to gather people, coordinate teams and collect information.

[The_Emperor]

I'll help with the... Moral Support, yeah.

Also feel free to use those posts in the Europa Barbarorum thread. It would be a shame to see all that effort go to waste. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (Scipio @ June 07 2004,00:43)]I think a mod for this would be a great idea, therefore I'll indevour to learn how to mod in RTW, who else is with me? We dont have to stop at fixing Ptolemaic Egypt buit we can strive to make the game more historical in general.
I'm with you scip http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

When you get the chance get in Contact with DemonAA, he seemed anxious to get some sort of team together to mod rtw.

[Steppe Merc]

Quote[/b] ]I'll help with the... Moral Support, yeah.

Oh oh, me too, me too
Serouslly, it would be a great idea for atleast some of the modders to work together,to make RTW the way it should be. I can't do much modding, but I know the basics of what the so called barbarians should be really like. Anything I can do, I'm there.

[biguth dickuth]

I did some reading on the Ptolemaic army and mainly on the battle of Raphia and i have constructed a list of units which were at use at the time.
I would like to share it with you as i hope it will help.
It is quite similar to that of Ellesthyan but with a few changes.

I also want to add a few things about the "cleruchs".
The cleruchs were professional soldiers who were granted land parts, the "kleroi", in exchange for their military service.
The cleruchs were not only cavalrymen. The "macedonian" phalangites were also cleruchs, although they probably received less land than the cleruch cavalrymen.
The egyptian royal guard (cavalry and infantry) were also recruited among the cleruchs.
Most of the cleruchs were of greek origin but only 1/3 of them was of macedonian origin. The rest were from other parts of greece or from thrace.

This is a list of units, recruited among several social classes:

Greek social class:

- Royal Guard (elite cavalry, recruited among the cleruchs, few in numbers)

- Royal Guard (elite infantry, recruited among the cleruchs)

- Heavy cavalry (armoured, of quite high standards, cleruchs)

- Sarissa(pike) phalanx (armoured, well trained, cleruchs)


Local population:

- Light infantry (psiloi) (unarmoured, mainly archers)

- Militia and guards in cities and forts

- Egyptian pike-phalangites (better trained and equiped than most of the locals but not among the best phalangites around, they were used from Raphia (217BC) and afterwards but for gameplay's sake we can make them available from the beginning)

- Egyptian horsemen (not many accounts about them, probably light horsemen and not too many in numbers, in use from the late 2nd century and afterwards but they can also be made available from the beginning in order to improve gameplay)


Mercenaries

- Greek cavalrymen (probably both heavy and light horsemen, quite able)

- Greek phalangites (probably pikemen and quite well equiped)

- Libyan infantry (pike-phalangites mostly)

- Nubian infantry (light infantry, mostly archers and very able ones)

- Cretans (mostly archers, quite able ones)

- Rhodians (mostly slingers and other light infantry)

- Thracians (probably peltasts and other light infantry)

- Gauls (warbands, probably spearmen and swordsmen, possibly armoured)

- Numidian cavalry (light, agile, able cavalrymen)

- Bedouin camel warriors (easy to imagine...but without the curved sword)

- African elephants


Before the battle of Raphia (217 BC), the ptolemaic army was mainly comprised by the greek inhabitants of egypt and several mercenaries and only a few locals, mainly archers.
From this battle and after, many thousands of locals were recruited into the ptolemaic army.

EDIT: I haven't found any accounts on syrian archers or libyan swordsmen so i didn't include them, although they might as well had been historical.

[biguth dickuth]

Based on the historical accounts of the battle of Raphia, a somewhat historical ptolemaic army could be the following:

- 1 unit of Royal Guard Cavalry (for king/pharaoh or prince) or a simple Cavalry Bodyguards for ordinary generals

- 1 unit of Royal Guard Infantry

- 1 unit of heavy cavalry (cleruchs)

- 5 units of "macedonian" phalangites (cleruchs)

- 1 unit of egyptian archers

- 4 units of egyptian pike-phalangites

- 1 unit of cretan archers (mercenaries)

- 1 unit of nubians (probably archers, mercenaries)

- 1 unit of libyan pikemen (mercenaries)

- 1 unit of greek pike-phalangites (mercenaries)

- 1 unit of greek cavalrymen (possibly from thessaly and other regions, mercenaries)

- 1 unit of thracian or galatian warbands (mercenaries)

- 1 unit of african elephants


The analogies are not perfect but i had to make the units sum up to 20, which is the number of units per army in RTW, from what we know so far.

I hope all this is useful (for history fanatics and future modders) and i anticipate for any corrections and suggestions you may want to make.

[Ellesthyan]

That's a nice looking army list, Biguth Im glad someone else found almost exactly the same as I could get. The emphasis however is more on the heavy infantry than I would expect (being a Macedonian successor army and all), but it's probably historic.
I cannot make hard that they used Syrian archers (I've seen slingers), nor have I seen Libyan warbands. However they were used by the Libyan armies and are historical "correct", although the Ptolomies might not have used them.

*cough* Aymartakingovermythread *cough* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Ellesthyan @ June 08 2004,14:20)]That's a nice looking army list, Biguth Im glad someone else found almost exactly the same as I could get. The emphasis however is more on the heavy infantry than I would expect (being a Macedonian successor army and all), but it's probably historic.
I cannot make hard that they used Syrian archers (I've seen slingers), nor have I seen Libyan warbands. However they were used by the Libyan armies and are historical "correct", although the Ptolomies might not have used them.

*cough* Aymartakingovermythread *cough* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif
I only posted twice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-shocked2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-lost.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif I'm not criticizing anything http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

You are both discussing things the way they please me... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[Spino]

Quote[/b] (biguth dickuth @ June 08 2004,12:03)]I did some reading on the Ptolemaic army and mainly on the battle of Raphia and i have constructed a list of units which were at use at the time.
I would like to share it with you as i hope it will help.
It is quite similar to that of Ellesthyan but with a few changes.

I also want to add a few things about the "cleruchs".
The cleruchs were professional soldiers who were granted land parts, the "kleroi", in exchange for their military service.
The cleruchs were not only cavalrymen. The "macedonian" phalangites were also cleruchs, although they probably received less land than the cleruch cavalrymen.
The egyptian royal guard (cavalry and infantry) were also recruited among the cleruchs.
Most of the cleruchs were of greek origin but only 1/3 of them was of macedonian origin. The rest were from other parts of greece or from thrace.

This is a list of units, recruited among several social classes:

Greek social class:

- Royal Guard (elite cavalry, recruited among the cleruchs, few in numbers)

- Royal Guard (elite infantry, recruited among the cleruchs)

- Heavy cavalry (armoured, of quite high standards, cleruchs)

- Sarissa(pike) phalanx (armoured, well trained, cleruchs)


Local population:

- Light infantry (psiloi) (unarmoured, mainly archers)

- Militia and guards in cities and forts

- Egyptian pike-phalangites (better trained and equiped than most of the locals but not among the best phalangites around, they were used from Raphia (217BC) and afterwards but for gameplay's sake we can make them available from the beginning)

- Egyptian horsemen (not many accounts about them, probably light horsemen and not too many in numbers, in use from the late 2nd century and afterwards but they can also be made available from the beginning in order to improve gameplay)


Mercenaries

- Greek cavalrymen (probably both heavy and light horsemen, quite able)

- Greek phalangites (probably pikemen and quite well equiped)

- Libyan infantry (pike-phalangites mostly)

- Nubian infantry (light infantry, mostly archers and very able ones)

- Cretans (mostly archers, quite able ones)

- Rhodians (mostly slingers and other light infantry)

- Thracians (probably peltasts and other light infantry)

- Gauls (warbands, probably spearmen and swordsmen, possibly armoured)

- African elephants


Before the battle of Raphia (217 BC), the ptolemaic army was mainly comprised by the greek inhabitants of egypt and several mercenaries and only a few locals, mainly archers.
From this battle and after, many thousands of locals were recruited into the ptolemaic army.

EDIT: I haven't found any accounts on syrian archers or libyan swordsmen so i didn't include them, although they might as well had been historical.
Nice list but I would downgrade the native Egyptian pike-phalangites to simple spearmen. Native Egyptian troops were rather unreliable and were poorly armed. Peasants with pointy sticks and all that. A simple spear and small wicker or wooden shield should suffice.

I would remove Libyan infantry (pikemen). The Ptolemaic Kingdom's pikemen were almost exclusively Greek/Macedonian and they were relatively plentiful.

Add Numidian Light cavalry. They seemed to serve under everyone's banner during that time period.

Add Celtic Light Cavalry - Apparently a cavalry force of roughly 4,000(?) Celtic or 'Galatian' horsemen fought for Ptolemy IV at the battle of Raphia. I'm not sure how often the Ptolemaic kingdom used Celtic cavalry, granting them unlimited access for all of RTW's 'eras' might be a touch too generous. Anyway add them to the mercenary mix.

Add Bedouin Camel cavalry - Indigenous troops.

[Ellesthyan]

Citaat[/b] ] only posted twice I'm not criticizing anything

You are both discussing things the way they please me...

Not exactly what I ment: the thread was used as a recruitment place for modders. That's fine and all but it was taking over my thread http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Im quite sure that CA will implement inns into the game. Therefore giving them all the mercenary troops they used is a little over the top... The Libyans can be recruited from their home provinces; I think (hope) they are a minor faction, but if Carthage may use them why not the Ptolemies?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Ellesthyan @ June 08 2004,15:45)]
Quote[/b] ] only posted twice I'm not criticizing anything

You are both discussing things the way they please me...

Not exactly what I ment: the thread was used as a recruitment place for modders. That's fine and all but it was taking over my thread http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
My lips are sealed... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif ...or should I say my hands are tied? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking.gif

[biguth dickuth]

Quote[/b] ]Nice list but I would downgrade the native Egyptian pike-phalangites to simple spearmen. Native Egyptian troops were rather unreliable and were poorly armed. Peasants with pointy sticks and all that. A simple spear and small wicker or wooden shield should suffice.


No, i think they were actually pikemen, trained in phalanx tactics and all, but i agree that they were peasants and should be poorly armed.
You are also right that they were quite unreliable, or at least that is so regarding Raphia, as they were hurriedly trained because of the imminent danger.
They actually won the battle with their numbers.


Quote[/b] ]I would remove Libyan infantry (pikemen). The Ptolemaic Kingdom's pikemen were almost exclusively Greek/Macedonian and they were relatively plentiful.


There are reports of 3,000 Libyan pikemen fighting in the battle of Raphia. Of course they were mercenaries.
I also don't think that they were commonly used but they ptolemies used them at least once.


Quote[/b] ]Add Numidian Light cavalry. They seemed to serve under everyone's banner during that time period.

Add Celtic Light Cavalry - Apparently a cavalry force of roughly 4,000(?) Celtic or 'Galatian' horsemen fought for Ptolemy IV at the battle of Raphia. I'm not sure how often the Ptolemaic kingdom used Celtic cavalry, granting them unlimited access for all of RTW's 'eras' might be a touch too generous. Anyway add them to the mercenary mix.

Add Bedouin Camel cavalry - Indigenous troops.

Agreed - at least for the numidian cavalry and the bedouin camels.

I'm not so sure about the celtic cavalry, though.
I'm pretty sure that the Celts who fought in Raphia for the Ptolemies were mainly infantry.
If celtic cavalrymen had been recruited in other occasions is something i don't remember reading anywhere. Therefore, i prefer not to add them, for the time being at least.
The usual mercenary cavalry forces of the Ptolemies were greek.

I will edit my initial post and add the rest.

[biguth dickuth]

Quote[/b] ]That's a nice looking army list, Biguth Im glad someone else found almost exactly the same as I could get. The emphasis however is more on the heavy infantry than I would expect (being a Macedonian successor army and all), but it's probably historic.

I can understand why you are surprised. I was surprised too when i read that in Raphia the Ptolemies had 70,000 infantry (of which 25,000 "macedonian" phalangites and 20,000 native pike-phalangites) and only 5,000 cavalry (of which 2,000 were greek mercenaries) and, of course, a few dozens of elephants.

Although the Seleucids had more cavalry (6,000-7,000) they had only 30,000 phalangites (and lots of light infantry) comparing to the more than 45,000 phalangites of the Ptolemies and this is one of the reasons they lost the battle.

[Maedhros]

We should rembember too that nearly all records from this time are lost. The numbers involved are only guesswork by historians.

I'm sure they are good guesses...However CNN failed to document. Oh, wait they have trouble with that today.

Different generals and kings may have used whatever mix suited the moment and availablity. I don't know they could engage in deficit spending, so a bad harvest might mean few mercanaries and heavy foot. Or if things were good, they could bring the army to a fearsome level.

As for dressing the men up in egyptian regalia...it adds character and flavor if not historical correctness. Let us all be glad some of the Celts won't be as undressed as history tells they were.

[Kraxis]

Impressive list dickuth.

Though the mercenaries would in my mind not be in the list. Mercenaries are after all just that and their inclusion depends on recruiting officers that toured various places, much more than roaming bands of mercs. Thus it would be wrong to say the Ptolomies were restricted to these mercs and at the same time it would be wrong to say that these mercs were Ptolomaic... It would be an option, pretty much like in MTW (just the other way around).

[ShadeHonestus]

Back in the day we use to do a Lot of tabletop minature wargaming. I think I still actually have my army of Alexander and my Army of Northern Virginia..among others, including a Roman army of Trajan. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif ahhh those were the days....thousands of minatures marching to do battle, after recruiting (researching and finding minatures) to training (painting, modding, and basing).

ANYWAYS, enough nostalgia...back to the topic at hand. We use to game this very period as well and the rules we most often used were either Tactica or De Bellis Antiquitatis. After much research we found the DBA army list (with a few alterations) to be the most accurate and below I have provided such for the Ptolemic Dynasty.



The format for below is:
Unit Name (typical number of Units)
Brief Description where applicable.


Army Mainstays 320-30 BC.

Cleruch Cavalry (2-5)
Cleruch Cavalry. Equipped similarly to Macedonian companions, the cleruch cavalry were offered land for military service.

Egyptian "Ethnic" light cavalry (1-4)

Agema (0-4)
Originally these were thought to be a crack/elite Auxilia/Pike hybrid. Some now think that perhaps these units’ sarisas were the sleeve-joined halves like that found in a Macedonian tomb

Cretans (0-8)
Basic Psiloi, most likely bows/javs I think.

Thracians (0-5)
Irregular Auxilia

Ethnic Egyptian or Syrian Archers (0-12)
Irregular Auxilla

Egyptian, Bedouin or Jewish Javelinmen (0-8)
Regular Psiloi

Bedouin Camelry (0-2)
Irregular Light Camels

Period Adjustments
Only before after 274 BC:

Macedonian phalangites (24-48)
Regular Pikemen. The bulk of the army was made up of military settlers and mercenaries. The Egyptian native population was considered too unreliable and was only used in dire emergency.

Peltasts (0-6)
Regular Auxilla. Equipped with the usual javelin, spear and shield.

Indian Elephants (0-1)
Irregular Elephants

Only from 274 BC to 54 BC:

Macedonian phalangites (24-48)
Regular Pikemen

Egyptian phalangites (0-24)
Regular Pikemen. Ethnic Egyptians were in increasing use.

Thureophori (0-6)
Regular Auxilla. Hellenistic foot, armed with the thureos(a shield, a large oblong, four cornered shield).

Galatians (0-4)
Irregular Warband - Galatan mercenaries.

Aitolian Mercenary Cavalry (0-2)
Irregular Light Horse

Aitolian Javelinmen (0-10)
Irregular Auxilla

African Elephants (0-2)
Irregular Elephants. African elephants of the small forest species were tamed to make up for the lack of Indian elephants after the line of supply was blocked by the Seleucids.

Only after 167 BC:

Imitation Legionaries (0-8)
Regular Blades - represents troops equipped in Roman style as "imitation legionaries".

Only after 54 BC:

Celtic Bodyguard (0-1)
Irregular Cavalry or Irregular Warband

Phalangites (8-12)
Regular Pikemen

Gabinian or Antonine remnant legionaries (0-10)
Regular Blades

Cilician and Syrian thureophoroi (4-12)
Regular Auxilla. Hellenistic foot, armed with the thureos(a shield, a large oblong, four cornered shield).



Of course, once again, looking at the richness of this army and the history of the Ptolemic Dynasty...why would they put anything but an accurate depiction in the game.

[ah_dut]

I think that you should include stronger cav as the eggy's should surely have good cav as they are the sucessors of big A. however great thread Ellesthyan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Ellesthyan]

Now that's a very well made list, ShadeHonestus. But could you make clear what you mean with regular/irregular in gaming terms?

It seems like the Ptolemaic army existed out of a big core of phalanx units (Macedonian, Ptolemaic or Egyptian), with a large support of archers and other ranged units. Surprisingly, I always find the percentage of cavalry be very small. Was the cavalry of such a quality that they didn't need numbers?

Thank you Ah_Dut http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Ellesthyan @ June 10 2004,16:37)]I always find the percentage of cavalry be very small. Was the cavalry of such a quality that they didn't need numbers?
No, there simply wasn't any more. The numerical decline of Companions is a well known fact, and the relatively few Companions that followed Ptolomy would not be enough to form a new core. And the Egyptian horses were not as good as the Thracian horses the Companions used.

All this was the same for every Succesor faction, and their constant fighting ensured they never recovered. So what did they do? They began to rely on the phalanx beating each other instead. And that broke the back of phalanx tactics completely (of course not when against each other).

[biguth dickuth]

Yes, a good post ShadeHonestus and a good list.

Regarding the mercenaries, i included them in the list because they were a significant part of the ptolemaic army.
I am not suggesting making these mercenaries de-facto available to the Ptolemies, or available only to them, i just took them in to show what a real ptolemaic army would look like.

As far as i'm concerned, for simplicity reasons, the Ptolemies should have the same mercenary-recruitment system as the other factions but since the majority of those mercenaries that we took in were peoples of the eastern mediterranean and not too far from Egypt, it should be easy for someone playing as the egyptians to get them.

[ShadeHonestus]

Ellesthyan The regular/irregular breaks down as follows.

The distinctions sometimes referred to troop quality, and sometimes were used to denote their purpose/formation.

In both cases, the representation was done in how figures were based. So lets say you have an irregular unit and a regular unit, regardless of quality. The irregular unit would be based on a base 20mm deep, while the regular unit would be based on a base 15mm deep. This came largely into play for movement and recoil. A irregular unit would recoil further in hand to hand then would a regular unit. Thus having the opportunity to create gaps in the line with greater ease for the opposition.