Imposters update

[Swoosh So]

As i was told i was online when i actually wasent i looked into this imposter thing some more and found out my other imposters.....

The info can be found here.......

[URL=don't-bother... [/URL]

This clan as we all know have been doing this sort of thing since they started, I am now breaking off relations with this clan completely and placing them all on ignore.

Swoosh... I can understand you being annoyed that other players are using your/other players names, I feel that this post is breaking the forum rules.


Quote[/b] ]Examples of objectionable messages: Posts containing names of people suspected of cheating in the multiplayer game. This clause has been much debated; its purpose is to avoid fruitless controversy. No conclusive proof on anyone cheating in the multiplayer game can be obtained or presented. Therefore, the staff and the majority of the patrons (approximately 70% voted in favor) feel that it is for the best to avoid making accusations; even if truthful, their inconclusiveness will probably lead to "flame wars" which are inconvenient to the forum and its every patron. Keeping of private "cheater blacklists" is allowed, indeed encouraged, but The Guild does not wish to be the medium for such. (Note that in the case of "name posting", the staff will often make an exception and edit out the name rather than deleting the entire message.)

I have edited your link to that information.

Rob The Bastard

[Demon of Light]

Rob: So what details can Swoosh So divulge that are in accordance with policy? Time? Date? Description of the impostor's speech habits? Speculation on the impostor's motives? Basically, can every relevant piece of information save the identity of the imposter be posted?

[The_Emperor]

From what I understand this isn't a new thing.

I heard from some other clans who have had players use similar online names to give them a bad rep online.

Perhaps the solution lies in not so much creating a blacklist, but as in creating a list of proper players Nicknames... This way people could always check back what Nickname that player actually uses in multiplayer.

(since people cannot steal your exact nickname very easily, it has to be a variation of it with different characters)

Players could at least generate a list of proper nicknames to compare with so they know if its really ther person who they claim to be.

[Swoosh So]

Thats ok rob i understand, but if anyone wants to know who these idiots are come visit me at the wolf forum.

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Swoosh So @ June 07 2004,15:28)]Thats ok rob i understand, but if anyone wants to know who these idiots are come visit me at the wolf forum.
Got a link to your Forum homepage?

[Rob The Bastard]

Quote[/b] (Demon of Light@June 07 2004 @ 23:37)] So what details can Swoosh So divulge that are in accordance with policy? Time? Date? Description of the impostor's speech habits? Speculation on the impostor's motives? Basically, can every relevant piece of information save the identity of the imposter be posted?

Examples of objectionable messages: Posts containing names of people suspected of cheating in the multiplayer game

That is how I interpret the rule... it specifically mentions names so anything else does not break the rule...

[Nigel]

hmmm, well, I may not personally like all the forums rules on no-name posting (I do understand the issue of avoiding flame wars, but still feel that people beeing impostered should have a way to defend their good name). But the rules have been voted on and agreed by a majority, and thus are not for me to be questioned.


Still, their interpretation may be tricky.

1. You interpret the rule by the letter
Everything but the name is ok and then what is wrong with posting a link to an (external) page.

2. You interpret the rule in its spirit
Everything leading to identify the "offender" is not ok, and thus speech habits and other relevant infromation should be refrained from or at least treated with caution.


Well, you are dealing with a delicate subject here, Rob (I wouldn't want to be in your shoes). But you may have to decide wether you interpret the rules according to 1. or 2.

[Bezalel]

Emperor, it's on the org's main page.

[Rob The Bastard]

You missed one out... I can interpret the rules the way I want to... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif and apply what I consider to be an appropriate response.

Yes... it is all down to how you interpret the rules, while they cover a lot of topics deemed offensive, they are hardly comprehensive when it comes to dealing with them.

As I see it, it is impossible to apply an identical response to every situation, just as the degree of offending will vary between members, so will my response to that offense.

In this instance, it is for Swoosh So to judge whether my actions are acceptable or not... if my actions are too harsh then a complaint can be made, and I am not above apologizing to members when I realize that I have over-reacted.

By the same token, if I feel my decision is correct, nothing short of Tosa intervening will move me to change it.

Apart from editing Swoosh's post I trust that the complete lack of warning cards/post restrictions/ demotions /banning etc meets with your approval?

[Voigtkampf]

Rob,

don't mind me showing off at your turf, but Nigel has a valid point; if you interpret the rules this way, then the mere spirit of that rule will be ignored.

Please allow me to elaborate further; in law theory, as well as praxis, you have the possibility to choose between several methods of interpretations, but mostly you apply them all. I won't count them all, but next to the linguistic interpretation, to my estimation the teleological interpretation is the most important one. The telos (goal, purpose) is the attempt to find out what goal did the law-makers have in mind when they created the law/legal norm, and act upon that conclusions.

Here, the staff wanted to avoid making the Org the battlefield, and a public vote on that issue brought to the decision you are now enforcing. Hence, we should ignore all accusations whatsoever, no matter how true they seem to be or are actually are, which is irrelevant. Therefore, next to names, all of other "hints" should be also rejected, hence this could cause even more trouble; if you describe someone in vague hints, reciting his posting style et cetera, you would willfully participate in an unintentional accusations of perhaps dozen other players that someone concludes they fit into the profile

Sorry to play the smartass, but the issue about interpreting rules is something the legalists have been discussing for centuries now and have developed a great deal of theories; instead of reinventing all that knowledge, perhaps we should take resort to already existing tools and ways of interpretation that are actually a solid part of practicing continental/common law systems.

Of course, aside of editing Swoosh' post, no further action should be taken, I believe everyone here agrees upon that. I have seen the screenshots and they "seemed" authentic, but that is nearly impossible to tell, and for that reason alone the Org doesn't allow any accusations to be made.

Perhaps only announcements to such things should be allowed, with a link to the place where the accusations can be discussed, closing the topic immediately afterwards and preventing the Org from becoming a battleground; in this case, a link to the Wolves' forums would suffice. This would be the maximum extent the Org should involve itself in.

Again, sorry for my incursion on your turf, Rob, these are only suggestions and you are perfectly right to take the course of action you deem appropriate.

Respectfully,

voigtkampf

[Swoosh So]

Voig the screen shots are irrelevant, the people who i know and are friends will take my word at face value, and if they dont then i dont consider them friends so their opinions on this matter dont bother me in the slightest. This information is for anyone that knows me to be wary when they see me online. Already the imposters have said things like i want to leave my clan, insulting my clan and my friends. I advise everyone that knows me to test me when they see me online if i engage in conversation with them. The clan doing this are a disgrace ive been in this community for years and shouldent have to bother with this bullshit. Just as a further bit of information about how idiotic this clan are they actually earlier in my investigation tried to say that 1 of the swoosh imposters was in mizu clan LOL Well this i knew immediatly to be total and uttter b/s Mizu are mature nice people and further led me to believe the idiotic clan were behind this.

Swooosh

[Surprise]

If any of you would like to follow this topic, just visit totalwars.net to find the topic.

Facts, not rumors.
I would like to correct Swoosh that in fact Swoosh is the only one who is bringing Mizu into the picture.

I never stated anything about the other clan member involved. What clan he is from and what his name is, I have not mentioned, solely for the purpose of going about not getting anyone else involved.

I also believe Swoosh is going way over the top, and is beginning an emotional rampage in which many people can now potentially be hurt and she cannot deal with the situation in a mature manner obviously.

Thanks.

[Nigel]

Hi Rob,


Quote[/b] ]You missed one out... I can interpret the rules the way I want to... and apply what I consider to be an appropriate response.

Very true. This is by your authority as a moderator, and it is good that the mods have this authority, for else the discussions will be endless.



Quote[/b] ]Yes... it is all down to how you interpret the rules, while they cover a lot of topics deemed offensive, they are hardly comprehensive when it comes to dealing with them.

And that's why a moderator is needed to make case-by-case decisions, using his best judgement.



Quote[/b] ]In this instance, it is for Swoosh So to judge whether my actions are acceptable or not... and I am not above apologizing to members when I realize that I have over-reacted.

That is comforting to hear, and I am beginning to feel that our forum is in good hands http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Swoosh in any case seems to be happy with your action and thus I am merely saying my opinion (a bit academically, maybe).

I lack Voigtkampf's in depth knowledge of law therory (you're in teh business, I take it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif), but if it can help the moderaters with clear and consistent interpretation of their rules, that may be a good thing. I am not saying that there would be an urgent need for it (I am not attacking you here, Rob http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif). It just sounds like a very interesting (if somewhat complex) subject to me.


Voigtkampf said:

Quote[/b] ]Perhaps only announcements to such things should be allowed, with a link to the place where the accusations can be discussed, closing the topic immediately afterwards and preventing the Org from becoming a battleground
Without having looked at the rules or their ways of interpretation, that sounds like a good suggestion to me (from a common sense approach). But again only my own opinion.



Quote[/b] ]Apart from editing Swoosh's post I trust that the complete lack of warning cards/post restrictions/ demotions /banning etc meets with your approval?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Well, you dont need my approval, of course, to run this site. But I am flattered that you asked http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Taking your post in a lighthearted way - nice But yes I am quite happy with the way the Jousting field is run, and have been for the last 8 month or so http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif.


And finally, yes I do more and more see the need to have a mechanism to keep the flames low.
Thanks,
Nigel

[Swoosh So]

Well unless u are lunar death by surprise how would u know, it was him who said my imposter was either bear clan or mizu clan, 7bearfury can back this fact up.

[Rob The Bastard]

And for my next trick... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif


DEATHby_Surprise suggests interested Members check out the topic at TotalWars.net (http://www.Totalwars.net)

Swoosh So suggests interested members check out the wolves forum... The Wolves clan site (http://www.clan-wolves.com/)

And I suggest that any mud slinging that members might be contemplating be carried out privately or somewhere that allows it.

[Sulla]

Swoosh, the more you comment this, the more they will enjoy impersonating members of your clan. The veteran players know who is who, and they are the only ones who really care about it. If someone decides to impersonate you, just ban them. Ask other members to ban them as well (in the lobby for example) and let them behave the way they behave. Who cares. As long as its under control (I think its a small group who impersonate you and other wolves?). I once made a small mistake by letting a fake wolf in (I really thought he was a wolf), and the game allready started. We just played the game, asked the fake to just drop the name, and I dont think he ever took that name again (no I dont know who it is, and I dont really care. Everybody makes mistakes) (wolf_spanker).

Also, Rob the Bastard has a point in editing these posts. Its his job, and he only follows the boards rule. Anyone who is interested could allways pm Swoosh to ask what is going on and who is who.

Regards

Sulla

[Puzz3D]

Sulla,

Well, I care because the clans in question are in the present cwc competition. How do you play a clan in a tournament if they are banned from your games?

[Sulla]

hmm yes, havent thought about that. The org isnt really the place to discuss this. However, maybe some other action can be taken? Discussions could take place at .net? clan forums?

Better get things organised, since a clan is involved in all this? Or is it just a few, and does the clan take distance of these events?

Sulla

[teki]

let's get some facts straight.
1. everything happened AFTER I have left takiyama. so clan takiyama is in no way responsible for any of following.
2. the people involved, were NightDragon, me (at the time TekiCunhao) and _7Bear7Furious.
3. the reason we did it : WolfSwo0sh, WolfSw00sh, Wolf__Swoosh was online.
5. have not been playing this game for a while, I was not very well informed of this issue being bought up. apologies for wasn't here sooner to clear things up.

[teki]

text error? part of my reply was missing...

3. the reason we did it : Wolf__Swoosh was kicking Inda out of a game where he was one of our teammates. Inda repeatedly apologized (for some arguement between him and swoosh before the game), and swoosh refused to accept it, despite our efforts, insisted on kicking Inda out of the game.
4. the people that were involved, were furious, me and dragon(as nightdragon). at the time we did it, the real swoosh was online.

[jones21]

hey swoosh kinda funny this clan made it to semi-finals in CWC and this happened a while ago but you just bringing it up.......anyways this is just a small fraction of that clan u cannot blame this on the whole clan and there where other people doing this as teki pointed out and why have u targeted just this clan when we know for a fact others not in this clan did same thing


>InsaneHighlander

[Swoosh So]

Jones 21 get a life, of course this has nothing to do with cwc, myself and silents have sorted this out (sortof). as for the inda thing ITS MY DECISION WHO I LET INTO MY GAMES as host its my choice plain and simple. Just because someone apologises for insulting u doesent mean they are immediatly forgiven now does it. Actually me and inda are on speaking terms and he is again welcome to join my games. As for u teki all i asked for was an apology for your impostering me and it was met with abuse so i replied in kind. I have nothing more to say to u as u dont believe what u did was wrong. And i stick by my opinion that a host can choose who to let into their games.

[jones21]

Swoosh did i insult you i dont think so, so please dont insult me..i asked u a simple question why is only silent clan be accused when u know there are others non-clan people doing this.

>InsaneHighlander

[ichi]

OK, so everyone knows that folks were impersonating Swoosh, and all can now take appropriate measures as they see fit.

OK, Teki has confessed and explained.

OK, Rob has moderated and any comments or ideas about moderating can be discussed in the Watchtower - there's a couple of great threads there about moderators and moderating.

OK, there's several other places to discuss this, see Robs last post,

so I don't see any more value in this thread, and am (for the first time in my illustrious career as an Assistnat Mod) closing a thread.

Thanks for your understanding and cooperation.

ichi

[ichi]

Took me two posts to close a thread

LOL, newbie I am

ichi