anti-elephant tactics

[shingenmitch2]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif CALTROPS

It remains to be seen how prevalent the "flaming pigs" are and how badly an army needs them to defeat elephants.

But it occured to me, and I certainly hope CA has thought of it too, to have the unit that many ancient armies used to restrict/defeat elephants --- light cavalry that dropped anti-elephant caltrops. (basically large tacks that always have their pointy side up)

How cool would it be to be able to run a cav unit out infront of an army and pressing a button, have it lay down a trail of caltrops? Maybe an elephant or 2 hits that spot and goes lame (dies) while the rest are then forced to path-find around the trail.

Hell anti-cav caltrop units might be cool too.

Maybe the caltrops occaisonally "sparkle" as the only hint they are there for the enemy, while the player (and allies) are able to see them clearly -- or maybe it could affect them too.

[Trax]

flamin´ pigs c00l, man
spiky things on the ground no c00l


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bomb.gif

[The_Emperor]

There is something to this...

Elephants have very sensitive feet and when Hannibal lost many of his War elephants crossing the alps, many of them got cuts on their feet due to the terrain, but just refused to walk anywhere... That Left them to the cold which finished them off.

[A.Saturnus]

As it is now, we will probably have Legolas shooting them an arrow in the brain...

[ah_dut]

Go caltrops, neither side knows precisely where they are though

[Divine Wind]

Im sure the historical accuracy faction we have here at the .org wouldnt be to happy with caltrops, seeming they werent invented till the Napoleonic era. Nice idea though. Surely better than flaming piggies. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

[RisingSun]

Didn't Caesar use caltrops at one point, hiding them in tall grass? I think I heard that somewhere, though I'm not sure when Caesar would have had the chance. MAybe I'm just talking out my ass, though. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

From Lil' Timmy;

well, personally i don't know anything about when caltrops were invented, but wouldn't the elephants just be able to navigate around them? i mean wouldn't you be able to see them on the ground? in that TC video about the battle of raphia, the elephants didn't seem over-powered or anything. i don't see the need for flaming pigs or caltrops if they keep them like they were in that video..

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ June 09 2004,11:50)]As it is now, we will probably have Legolas shooting them an arrow in the brain...
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif Why am I laughing with RTW's disgrace??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif

[RisingSun]

We all have to laugh sometime. I'll cheer you up. Wanna hear some Hellen Keller jokes? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (RisingSun @ June 09 2004,17:12)]We all have to laugh sometime. I'll cheer you up. Wanna hear some Hellen Keller jokes? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-shocked2.gif You BAD boy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-speechless.gif

[Kraxis]

To Lil Timmy:

In TC the elephants looks good, perhaps even underpowered, but in a much later E3 preview they were absolutely devastating to some Romans. And since that there has been great discussions on how overpowered the elephants are (as if we would know) or if they are ok since the heavy infantry is their preferred target.

About caltrops, I'm not certain about them, but I seem to remember something about caltrops being dropped by an army facing camels. It might not be in this timeframe, but I'm not against caltrops as the basics were known. The Romans under Ceasar made use of buried wooden spikes with a metal point on them (imagine Buffy's spike with the point into the ground and an iron hookspoint extending a short way up of it). Basically making them into small and unseen obstacles perfect for stopping/slowing any foe. Couldn't be nice to step on them either as they had barbs.

But from a balance point of view they would be extremely hard to implement. Who would get them? Would they stop elephants only? How visible would they be? How effective would they be (allowing some elephants through).
The idea seems nice, but I have little confidence in it.

[nightcrawlerblue]

What's this thread? NO

Hey you can't be killing my elephant hordes I don't care fi they go insane and kill my troops because it will look cool but you can't go killing them That's not cool Stop your evil plans against my fun

[Vanya]

GAH

Vanya's Guide to Battling Elephants
===================================

PART I

First, youz must recognize that elephants are bigger than youz. Youz needs to "get up there, in the air" to beat elephant.

Therefore, the first step is going out and getting your own elephant. Use elephants to attack elephants

PART II

Having your own 'phant is merely the beginning. It is also necessary to have wisdom.

Vanya sez... buy many peanuts As your 'phant approaches "their" 'phant, toss peanuts to the ground. The enemy pachyderm will meander off course and eat the nuts

NUTS, you say? EXACTAMONDO While enemy riders fight with their 'phant to redirect them, youz get close and put a javelin or an arrow through his noggin.

PART III

But doing that would spoil a perfectly good 'phant by allowing it to run amok

SOOO... Instead, keep low and when youz get close, LEAP from your 'phant to the enemy 'phant and knock the enemy riders to the ground They will be trampled beneath the feet of their own 'phant And might even get a few peanuts encrusted into their skulls

And since youz clearly had the foresight to pack a midget copilot for your original 'phant, you now have TWO 'phants under your command Just let it eat up the nuts you gave it and turn it around and start trampling silly enemy pigdogs with glee

GAH

[ShadeHonestus]

how about thos war wagons that were used in that one battle...they had the beams and protruding trident and stuff

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif seriously my memory is failing me lol, but I know I didn't make this up...

[kataphraktoi]

Anything to kill those "phants"

mmm - Phanticide

If not, its up to de flaming bacons to do the trick...

[ShadeHonestus]

ahhhhh

here's a link to some info about that thingy.

Phanticide Wagons (http://www.wargamer.com/greatbattles/Asculum.asp)

[shingenmitch2]

My understanding is that the ancients had caltrops, and ones specifically designed for elephants.

I think it would be cool to be able to deny land to elephants, and even cavalry by this method. Have the first couple of horse/elephants in a unit that encounter the caltrop line die, and have the rest forced to go around it. In effect you could fortify a flank.

Here's an interesting link about war elephants

war elephants (http://www.clickfire.com/viewpoints/articles/political/elephants.php)

[nightcrawlerblue]

Perhaps you could have a unit that can barely fight but can drop those caltrops and then you have another unit that can pick up caltrops?

Then you can fortify it and I can break the fortifications Otherwise you'll just make a circle around your army and my elephants will be useless.

[ShadeHonestus]

I think the whole idea surrounding the use of Caltrops goes hand in hand with my thread on C & C and the limitations in this era.

[Sociopsychoactive]

Caltrops

The Carthaginians tried to force the Roman trenches outside Panoramus with elephants. The elephant was generally not very effective at siege warfare. The usual counter-methods were to pick off the drivers and to put down caltrops which lamed the animals.

Taken straight from Military use of Elephants (http://www.clickfire.com/viewpoints/articles/political/elephants.php)

Romans did use Caltrops, an I am pretty certain they were around a long time before this mention, therofre in the early days of rome if not before.

Also the disadvantages of eephants are clear, they don't exactly care what uniform the people they are trampling are wearing, and as stated in that brilliant article, the elephant trainer (who directed the elephant in battle) often had to kill the beast with a shisel and mallet to the head to prevent it slaughtering their own troops.

For RTW, take out the chisel and elephants ar balanced, easy anti elephant tactics are javlinmen, and as you ca't really ack your elephant up with your own troops without putting them at serious risk of being trampled, one squad of javlin or similar would be enough to take down an eephant or two with ease.

Not overpowered, and actually quite historically accurate. I just hope they find a way of working in the fear factor for an army facing elepants when it has never even seen the beasts before. They had a wonderfull fear effect anyway, but to uncultured enemies they were devestatin g before they even trod on a single man, and when they did they were even more terrifying.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

From Lil' Timmy-

i think it would be cool if you could kill the riders on elephants. there should be some probability of just killing the rider when you attack elephants with ranged weapons. the elephant of the dead rider(s) would just automatically rout away from nearby people.

also, why not include the "chisel and hammer" idea for routed elephants that have riders.. would be a way to kill them if they are ruining your own units. like "rally", it could be a choice that is available for routed units only.

as for caltrops.. i feel like they'd be a little hard to implement. maybe they could be dropped over a certain area (by dragging a box) in pre-battle deployment if you are defending, as long as the attacker has a chance to see them (with the aforementioned 'twinkle' or something). whatever it takes to get rid of the flaming pigs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif

[ah_dut]

pig power http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Sociopsychoactive]

I have had an idea concerning caltrops, but even so it;s kinda to late in the game to suggest it to CA.

For a start, only during sieges, not in any other battle, and only for the defender during aforementioned sieges. They are not a unit, not at all, they are not dropped or placed, infact they are a castle upgrade. An upgrade of seriese of them could allow you to guard your towers and gates with a row of caltrops, laming any elephants that are used as siege weapons, seriously hindering cavalry attacks on gates/towers and annoying, but not really hurting infatry that attack them.

Therefore they arn;t overpowered or even overly usefull, you don't need to bother with a twinkle or anything, have it so they can hurt any unit, not just attackers mening they can actually be a DISadantage for the defenders, if they wanted to charge out of the castle and attack the enemy.

It's far easier to implement than a unit dropping them, damage Vs different unit types is easy to program and it is very historically accurate, especially their great usefullness Vs Elephants.

Saying that, now that you have the ability to man your walls and towers elephants wouldn't be that great in a siege as ranged is their achillies heel, especially javlins.

Hmmmmmm

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] ]Saying that, now that you have the ability to man your walls and towers elephants wouldn't be that great in a siege as ranged is their achillies heel, especially javlins.


True,

But remember official Trailer 4. After the City gate was battered down a War Elephant came storming through into the Roman heavy inf who were waiting on the other side...

Clearly they would be good to send into those tight streets where infantry doesn't have much hope of avoiding getting crushed.

[ah_dut]

I agree but an elephant can also be ambushed far easier in the close up urban combat with a clatrop http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif just joking but I should guess an elephant is too clumsy to use against organized warfare using hit and run techiques. I mean how fast can an elephant turn corners? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif