Can Slinger pick up stones?

[Oleander Ardens]

We discussed the Egyptian faction quite intensive recently, but has anybody else noticed this?

Slingers

Slingers are highly skilled missile troops but are at a huge disadvantage in hand-to-hand combat, especially against cavalry. They can maintain a sustained and concentrated barrage on enemies and then fall back rapidly to avoid hand-to-hand combat. Slingers carry a shoulder bag with many pieces of lead shot (they can also use stones picked up on the battlefield) and several spare slings including slings of different length for greater or lesser range. Other than a knife and a small shield, they carry no other equipment.


It would a incredibly cool feature which also could enhance gameplay by giving the slingers distinct characteristics.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif


What do think about it?

[lancelot]

will eat a book if it happens.

If it does, should archers be able to pick up arrows?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (lancelot @ June 09 2004,15:00)]will eat a book if it happens.

If it does, should archers be able to pick up arrows?
A sling projectile doesn't relly need to be constructed. Arrows do. A sling projectile is available everywhere. An arrow no. A sling projectile doesn't break. An arrow does.

Does this answers your question?

[Nelson]

If suitable rocks were always available and effective then lead shot would not have been used. Battles were not held in quarries or stream beds after all. If you are standing in a grassy field enough nice round stones to equip a bunch of slingers could be hard to come by. I think slingers should get more shots than archers and avoid weather penalties but otherwise should go winchester just like any other missile unit.

[Spino]

I think you're reading way too much into the unit description. My money's on slingers having a limited ammo supply and nothing more. They should have at least as many missiles as the average archer unit possesses.

[Dead Moroz]

Quote[/b] (lancelot @ June 10 2004,00:00)]will eat a book if it happens.
Hope it won't be "War and peace". http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif


I think slingers should have unlimited ammo when fighting on mountain and arid ground. On desert, grass and snow they should have limited ammo.
But I'm afraid that in RTW they'll always have limited ammo just like other missile units. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[Ragss]

The ability to pick up rocks as you go will probably be the only exceptional thing about slingers. Its all about gameplay balance.

[Trax]

The picked up rocks should of course have only 1/2 or 1/3 effectivness of the lead projectiles.

[RisingSun]

I noticed that in the description, too. But I wouldn't read too much into it.

And they should not have unlimited ammo on said maps. Can you imagine the MP games "Arid Early NO SLINGERS"

And then people pick all slingers anyway and never run out of ammo.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Maybe if there are slingers on both sides, they could pick up the other sides shots and send them back. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[RisingSun]

You mean out of the dead bodies? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Trax]

Leadshots would probably be badly deformed after first use
or not?

[RisingSun]

Certainly, but I doubt they were very round to begin with.

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (RisingSun @ June 09 2004,20:11)]Certainly, but I doubt they were very round to begin with.
No, they were oval. I think it has something to do with the slinging of the bullet would spin it like an American Football making it much more accurate than a round bullet. But I'm not certain about it.

So stones could be used, but they would hardly be as good in any department. Range, power, accuracy...

[Nowake]

Help me a bit: what exactly a slingers initial ammo comprised?

[Oleander Ardens]

Well the Slingers from Rhodos were the first to use lead for slinging and outranged the Persian slingers by the factor two, according to Xenophon in the march of the tenthousends..

Lead bullets were spherical like the ones of burned clay, which have been in use for millenias; In fact they are cases full of slingshots with the symbol of the slingshot almost on every citywall of Mesopotania..

Lead bullets outperform their counterparts of stone by at least the factor 3. Far longer range, far higher velocity, far better accuracy, far higher kin energy concentrated on a far smaller area; the list of their pros is very long and I could add even some more...

So possible stone slingshots should nothing else be than an possibility to continue to undermine the enemy moral and to keep the slingers from standing idle on the field~:D

There was a big post in the .com abbout slinging, and there I suggested that slingers could pick up stones if they run out of shots, so I read the description with care http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[ShadeHonestus]

Is anyone projecting slingers to be so effective that it would matter one way or another? LOL

The average slinger will either be javelined to death, or be trampled by light cav long before they run out of ammo...

Granted in history they played pivotal roles, but I see that as difficult to maintain in the game engine unless they get stepped up dramatically from what they have been in STW or MTW.

[The_Emperor]

It should also be noted that the Britons used especially rounded stones for their ammo... At one Hillfort at least 20,000 rounded stones were found.

[Trax]

Archers vs Slingers (http://www.legiontotalwar.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3784&st=0)

[Oleander Ardens]

It is a very good link, although I knew most of it already -beside the use of slingers against the Elephants by the Iberians..

One might add that Nervii slingers played a big part in the defeat of a roman corps during the de bello Gallico - the Romans were surrounded by the lighter Nervii infantry and peppered all the time by javelins and slingers...

Slingers with lead shots should be better against armored infantry than even Sarmantian or Cretian archers with armorpiercing arrow - it is not a case that lead was first used shortly after the Greek armys relied more and more on heavily armored infantry...

[Oleander Ardens]

@Emperor: Were can I find this findings? I`m curious as the Gauls used burned clay... A link would be much appreciated http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[ah_dut]

slingers sound awesome

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ June 11 2004,16:42)]@Emperor: Were can I find this findings? I`m curious as the Gauls used burned clay... A link would be much appreciated http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
I found it once during my seach for facts on the Britons for Europa Barbarorum...

But I can't remember what the exact site was. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

However I just did a search about slingstones and Maiden Castle (the largest Iron Age Hillfort in Britain) and found a site that explains that around 50,000 Sling stones have been found scattered around the site. Demonstrating the stubborn resistance Vespasian's army faced. (the stones originally came from a beach nearby as I understand it)

Maiden Castle. (http://www.roman-britain.org/places/celtic/maiden_castle.htm)

[DemonArchangel]

Archers were definitely lethal, and the psychological effect of an arrow buried in a guy is ALOT scarier than a sling ball buried in someone. Also, the problem with the sling ball is that slingers required ALOT of training, more so than archers, who required huge amounts of training in the first place.

[RisingSun]

That's something I didn't know. Is it really that hard to use a sling? I know bows take a lifetime to master, but I never would have guessed a weapon like the sling.

They should be very effective, however. Good luck glancing that lead shot off your armor like you would an arrow at a poor angle. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

[Colovion]

I think that archers and slingers should be able to recover a certain percent of their projectiles from the dead if they happen to go over the aread they were firing upon - they scavenged arrows historically - maybe the next Total War game....

[Oleander Ardens]

Thanks Emperor http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif

Having made a good deal of researchers about slinging and archery I'm no longer surprised by such huge numbers of ammunition. Since the first citys and forts were defended with ranged weapons both sides always tried to get as much shots and arrows as possible - Quantity has a quality all of it's own...

Here a little piece of how many arrows one needed to wage war in the ancient Mesopotania

Mari on the Euphrates... The palace administration was responsible for the provision of arms, munitions, and siege equipment. King Zimri-Lim wrote while on a military campaign to order further supplies of arrowheads: 'To Mukannishum [his official in the palace] say this, Thou speaks your lord. When you hear this letter read, have made: 50 arrowheads of 5 shekels [40 grams] weight in bronze, 50 arrowheads of 3 shekels, 100 arrowheads of 2 shekels, 200 arrowheads of 1 shekels. Give orders to have this done at once. Then have them put in store to await my further instructions. I suspect the siege of Andariq will be prolonged. I shall write to you again about these arrowheads. When I do write, have them brought to me as quickly as possible.' Anothe letter from the king to the same official orders him: 'When you hear my letter read to you, have made 1,000 bronze arrowheads at 1/4 shekels [2 grams] each. Have them made from the red bronze at your disposal, and have them sent to me at once.'.. Later, when Shamshi-Adas's son Yasmah-Addu was installed as vice-regent at Mari... in a letter to his son, Shamshi-Adad ordered 10,000 arrowheads to be made, requiring almost five tons of bronze. Some of the bronze for the job had to be transported from Assur since the Mari palace armourers did not have enough stock. The accounts were kept straight Watkins, 1989, The Beginnings of Warfare, in: General Sir John Hackett (ed.), Warfare in the Ancient World, London, Sidgwick and Jackson Ltd.)

Source: www.hindunet.org/hindu_hi...rseals.htm


About the Archer vs Slinger debate:

An leadshot will be much more lethal against armor than arrows - even if it didn't penetrate the helm or the lorica segmentata it could cause havoc - it is said that a slingshot hitting a helm could blind a man...

[Colovion]

In Age of Mythology archers are countered by slingers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Vanya]

GAH

There be swingers in da game? Hmmm... interesting.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

GAH

[RisingSun]

Indeed, there will be an "MLB All-stars" unit in the American version in which all the MLB's top hitters romp around the battlefield swinging their bats using performance enhancing drugs.

Rumor has it it is an Egyptian unique unit. They all have head dresses.

You can also purchase each slugger individually. After all, more units=COOL right?

[ah_dut]

Quote[/b] (RisingSun @ June 15 2004,03:34)]You can also purchase each slugger individually. After all, more units=COOL right?
no, not more flaming pigs