Billmen or Chiv Sarges?

[Axeknight]

I'm playing English GA. It's 1300ish. I've got Mercia up into a fantastic spear producing province, and am building all my spear/polearm units there.

My question is, which unit is better, Billmen (at v2 straight out, as I have the master spearmaker, and with the second armour upgrade), or chiv sgts (v1, 2nd armour upgrade)? I know I'll be able to get Pikemen soon, but it'll take a while for my armies to convert from high era units to late. My late era armies (ones I raise after 1320) will be pikemen, but the garrison ones are high era.

My recent strat has been to have 1 chiv sgt unit in the centre, 2 billmen units in the left-centre and right-centre of my line, flanked by 2 more chiv sgt units, which in turn are flanked by 2 chiv MAA. I then have 3 or 4 longbow units (welsh with master bowyer, so v2 + 1 armour upgrade), 1 mounted sgt unit, 1 royal knight unit (usually a prince), and 3 chiv knights. This makes exactly 960 (I think) men, and 16 units. Are there better strats for high era? Should I go for halbs over billmen? They have better armour, but is the poor morale and poor attack, a fair compromise?

[katank]

I'd say go with more billmen.

having about 2 chiv sarges can be enough for pinning and use the billemen to flank/rear pinned knights and you can say bye, bye horsies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

also go a bit more longbow heavy.

I tend to have about 6-8 longbows, 4 bills, and CMAA or CK with an odd chiv sarge thrown in.

halbs are junk and too slow to flank.

I'd say more bills for better attack and speed.

V2 bills are also better than v1 halbs by a long shot in general usage.

[gaijinalways]

The Chiv searents are notorious for their poor valor/morale. I almost never use them as they rout constantly.

The Billmen are okay. they seem sometimes to be better for flanking and hitting enemy cav in the rear or side than facing them straight on.

[katank]

the idea is to use chiv sarges to pin and bills to flank.

straight bills are better than straight chiv sarges but you don't want the bills to eat a cav charge since it hurts and more of them go down compared to chiv sarges and chiv sarges also cost less per man down in charge.

let the spears eat the charge and pin iwht the polearms to hit in rear is always my high era onwards philosophy although in late I replace spears with pikers.

[gaijinalways]

As I said, I've usually found the chiv sarges a bit weak and likely to rout. Either using or facing them, they rout easily compared to other men and they are a bit slow, though not as slow as halbs.

[pdoan8]

katank is right.

Remember that spear have 1/4 (att/def) bonus vs cav. They also have rank bonus. Not sure if they still negate frontal cav charge as in STW. Spear are good for receiving cav charge. CS have good defense and have large unit size, so unit size goes down slower. CS also good for pinning/holding enemy. CS have low morale. Need to train them in province with good morale bonus buildings and use them with high ranking general (3+ stars are good enough). Use them in close order so they can protect each other flanks.

Bill are anti-cav. They have 3/1 (att/def) bonus vs cav plus AP weapon and faster than spear. Perfect for taking down heavy cav from the flank or rear. Also good for flanking armoured troops.

Halb are too slow and have low att, morale that make them harder to use as flanking troops. However, they have good defense so they can take frontal cav charge better than Bill. For flanking, I rather use MS.

[Axeknight]

Quote[/b] (pdoan8 @ June 10 2004,05:49)]Need to train them in province with good morale bonus buildings and use them with high ranking general (3+ stars are good enough).
That's no prob. I have a cathedral in Mercia.

So I should use 2 Chiv sgts in the centre, with 2 billmen on either flank, right? And longbow heavier.

[Mablung]

Personally I would go with 4 bills, 2 CS, 2 CMAA, 5 Lbows, 2 CKs 1 RK general. If you have Gallows, use them instead of CMAA - they will utterly destroy spears. Spears are in the centre, bills on the outside, swords inside bills. Keep the cavalry behind ready for flank. Keep the Lbows behind the battle line. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ROCKHAMMER]

I agree with Mablungs strategy. It will give you a very flexible battle line which should be able to deal with just about any threat you come across. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[solypsist]

billmen

[katank]

I like mablung's setup too.

just one thing as to gallow use.

be sure to get some morale for them and then armor.

charging them head on is bad idea as their defense is weak and morale very low.

you might beat the units but survival rate is too low.

try to get chiv sarges to pin their lines completely and focus the bills on cav and gallows on spears or other swords.

both have armor piercing and with the longbow fire, can take down most armored units that woudl maul severely any other army.

[gaijinalways]

This is very true for any kind of troops, anything to build up their starting morale/valor is great. I have usually just found other kinds of troops (even MAA ) to be better than CS. Just my personal experience, pikemen on the other hand, rock on even with heavy losses sometimes, but of course sometimes the game is over before they become available in great numbers.

[katank]

spears need it more than most and a cathedral is very important.

I personally like v2 bills from mercia just for the 8 morale which is very good.

after master spear finishes, I usually build a cathedral to boost morale further.

[Mablung]

V2 Bills with the Cathedral (and other) morale bonus are basically unstoppable when the AI faces them. Not to mention their versatility Billmen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[LordKhaine]

2/3 Chiv sarges to hold the line, and stick the rest in bills. Billmen are strong and reliable, you can't really go far wrong with them.

[katank]

bills are better units overall in terms of versatility and wouldn't lose that badly to swords due to AP abilities.

also, you can get them to start at v2 which is a huge advantage over v1 max chiv sarges.

the 8 morale bills at v2 vs. 2 morale v1 chiv sarges show how bills are also more reliable.

still, a few tins cans to hold the lines and pin will reduce the casualty rate for your precious bills.

[ah_dut]

as said before, use CS to hold bills to flank. I like Halberds on the pin and bilss flank personally, though but i'm a slow defensive kind of n00b. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[katank]

CS are cheaper than halbs in terms of survival rate for the pinning.

halbs do take missile fire better though, hmmmm

[Drake]

The answer is not Billemn or CS, not even both. The answer is Swiss Amoured Pikemen. Works wonders on all your Holy Roman, French, Turkisk and Byzantine stains. Now works on Papal problems too. Just top one in with your regular army and watch as SAP munch the buggers. Only available in grey.

[ah_dut]

drake, you miss the point, you have to conquer Switzerland and tech it up to ludicrous levels to get SAP. He already has the infrastructure to build the CS or billmen. so why choose SAP in a land that may well be low tech?
@katank, in my (few) MP games, i come under a lot of archer fire so i find that halbs are better while my longbows return fire

[katank]

drake, seriously.

you need to take switzerland which is ok but it's practically in the middle of central europe and it's likely to have you end up fighting 4+ factions simultaneously which can go up to 7 easily.

central europe is a huge brawl and I prefer to stay away.

SAPs also require fortress level in switzerland which is not very developed at all.

besides, they aren't really relevant to this discussion as it's not realistic in many circumstances.

@ ah_dut, I like halbs too but find them a bit too slow for my liking.

vanilla halbs you can't manuever and they tire faster due to their armor.

it's all personal preferences really.

[dessa14]

i prefer billmen.
i think they have a bigger punch then any of the Sergents.
thanks, dessa

[ah_dut]

I don't mind their relative slowness in defense which fappens a lot in SP (i don't play very much MP) as I do what Froggy writes in her guide, I use halbs as tin cans http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[katank]

I don't know though.

I just feel a bit queasy about just using polearms. halbs+billmen? that's a funny combo.

I guess I'll give it a try.

[Oleander Ardens]

It might sound irrelevant but has somebody made Almughavaras buildable in Castile like me?

They are a polearm unit armed with spears without the armorpiercing hand-to-hand attack but with 4 missiles as canopener. Relative bad at taking a charge even if they are wellordered in three ranks, but what an attack

An consider that they are fast too, so that flanking is far easier with them...

Now I always try to get Castile for Jenites+Almughavars; This duo enriches every army http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[katank]

they are merc in high only available in aragon so I made them buildable in aragon with metalsmith and spear guild.

they are pretty good.

think of them as bonnacht types.

I rear attack pinned cav with them and find them good.

they are attacker spears just like muwahids just as their unit size woudl suggest.

think of javs as nice bonus.

[Oleander Ardens]

Good to know that others made them buidable too...

Doesn't it say that they are mercs form Castile? Anyway I too set spearguild as requirement, without the metalsmith..

I use them mainly on the flanks where their speed allows you to use the high attack and the 4 javs to your advantage. They only fear horsearchers and fast footarchers, as they can stand pretty well against light and medium horse and run from stronger infantry.

That's why I screen them with fast footarchers; They can outduel enemy horsearcher´with ease. Another nice combo is the Almughavars - Jenites couple. It is deadly against enemy cavalry.

But sometimes, when I fight with almost pure missle armys in a fine defensive position I deploy them as spearwall - the shower of javs after the rain of arrows has routed many men, and the ones which sustainted it faced the unstoppable charge of the Almughavars http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


OA

[Drake]

But their so good.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[katank]

@ OA, they are actually available in Aragon as mercs in High.

they are so difficult to come by although a unit is in rebel stack in Navarre at start of High.

don't read their units descriptions or anything.

trust me, make them available in Aragon.

besides, Castille already has inquisitor bonus so give Aragon the cool unit.

[ah_dut]

@OA isn't an all missile force a bit too risky especially against a longbows and CMAA army.

[katank]

I've never seen the AI field an all longbow/CMAA army.

also, amulghavars aren't really your average missile.

they do better than longbows IMHO.

they are also counters to cav even if they don't take the charge that well, they can protect other missiles.

throw in some gunpowder and arbs and you should be able to roll.

I actually tried almughavars in an High Aragonese game after I enabled them and I had silver armor for them and used them instead of chiv sarges in my battle lines and it worked reasonably well.

I used demiculvs and handguns too.

gotta love modern technology all missile with gunpowder is very good idea. throw in some cav or you can't catch all the routers.

[Oleander Ardens]

@ah-dut: Just take a look at their stats - from Froggies guide

Almughavars
Charge 6 Attack 3 Defence 0 Armour 2 Speed 6, 12, 13 Morale 8 Cost 425 Support cost 60

The moral gets a -3 modifier as they are mercs, but...
1)Add the bonus for the supporting ranks
2)take into account the bonus vs cavalry
3) dont't forget the 4 deadly javelins

And voila' you have one, if not the most versatile infantry unit in the MTW world.

As they are fast they can outrun all stronger enemy infantry, only the JHI and the Highlander are dangerous for them. They can skirmish heavier infantry without fearing too much the enemy cavalry and with these 4 javs and their great charge and high attack chances are high that even Vangerian Guards of equal valour crumble after that treatment.

As I said they are a great bonus for every army



@Katank: As I made them buldable in Castile my enemys had to face a complete silver wall of Almughavars - very deadly indeed..

Perhaps I will give them to Aragon - or Leon, perhaps to both http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[katank]

exactly, ah_dut, a look at the stats will convince you that they are no less powerful than many turkish hybrids in melee.

I consider them to be chivalric javelins if there's such a thing.

@OA. I still have them only in Aragon.

rest of Iberia is already quite valuabel and giving this to Aragon may give the Aragonese a possible boost.

[octavian]

Marquis de Said has this to ask

Mercenary

Group: Junior Patron
Posts: 13
Leeds, England

------------------------------------------------------------
Could someone post this to this thread:
http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....t=19182

Topic: Billmen or Chiv Sarges?, Or both?

How can you mod Almughavars to become available to build in Aragon or Castile? What files do you have to change?

Marquis

[katank]

crusaderbuild prod file.

use gnome editor and add in the build reqs.

column 17

region is column 51.

have fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

Seems that we presented the Almughavars in a fine light, katank http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I'm writing right now on a public comp and can not say exactly which files you have to edit but with a close look into the crusader_unit folder it is rather easy.

Download the Gnome Editor from the .org it makes things much easier...


Search the Almughavars, follow the line until you get to the "regions etc required to built this unit". Than you have to fill in "ID_ARAGON" where the Swiss Pikes have ID_SWITZERLAND and you have to set the buildings required to built them - Speargild seems fine to me.

If you have doubts just check how things look in the line of the units like the Swiss Armored Pikmen - there you can doublecheck...

OA


...arg Katank was faster http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

[katank]

lol, yeah we presented amulghavars in a really fine light.

I've used almost all missile armies where except for 2-3 CKs, all units were gunpowder, arbs, or almughavars.

these boys are likely one of the best hybrid missiles ever.

top hybrid jav almughavars

top hybrid archer janny inf

top hybrid cav boyar or siphais of the porte etc.

[ah_dut]

just me being a n00b again, but i like turkic hybrid armies, i prefer longbows, as I play medmod, you get ebglish longbowmen who have 8 attack are fast(iirc) and have a longbow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif byebye almughavar http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[katank]

lol.

you love coming up with counter examples, don't you?

can't we just settle it as each unit has their specialty?

almughavars are just awesome javs.

[ah_dut]

okay but a debate is no use without a counterexample, i learnt that at my school's debating society http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[katank]

not if it's pretty irrelevant.

we were only discussing whether or not amulghavars are capable melees and classification as your typical weak missile unit.

conclusion is it's pretty darn good for stats and poweful in its class.

well, longbows own all shouldn't be the answer.

just my 2 cents http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[octavian]

Quote[/b] (katank @ June 17 2004,18:48)]not if it's pretty irrelevant.
score