Killer Routers

[Kristaps]

It has always amazed me that the biggest losses my cavalry-men see is when their targets start routing. Saw it again yesterday: my king's royal bodyguard unit frontally charged a unit of woodsmen. The fight went on for some short time: the woodsmen unit was 30 men down, while the royals had not lost any, when the 'routing' sign appeared above the tree-hugger unit. Boom..., in a matter of a second my royal bodyguard unit went down from 21 men to 16...

Come on, if the woodsmen were not able to kill anything while fighting, how, the heck, they obtained such ability when routing? My suspicion is that the game engine gives routing units a charge bonus :(

[Demon of Light]

Routing units go a their top speed off the map as quickly as possible. I don't know if the charge bonus is added but I do know that there is a push-back bonus as well as a bonus for multiple attackers against a single defender. When they rout, they all go in the same direction at the same time and often kill a few people who get caught up in the wave.

[katank]

they enjoy full charge bonus when routing.

this is why chasing routers, it's best to hit from flanks or rear as the AI can't hit back.

I actually sometimes use this to my advantage.

a few times when my pronoiai got surrounded and cut up by MHC, the best way to MHC turned out to be to rout them and their charge ripped a big jagged hole in the MHC surrounding them.

sure I lost the pronoiai but they actually killed a lot more MHC than I expected. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[gaijinalways]

Sounds a bit crazy to me, running for your life and you kill someone in the stampede? Sounds more like cattle

I have had the other experience too, where you are routing and a few cav keep killing and chasing when the numbers you have routing should clean their clock My battle yesterday gave me still 2x the number of kills, yet i lost the battle as I couldn't get my tired (after running) and depleted (from getting hit in the backsides) troops back together in time before my wife would divorce me(it was 1 a.m. already).

Of course, I could try a new wife, certainly a fellow gamer would be good.

Husband---You feel hungary?

Wife --- Yeah let's kill something and finish this game

Husband-- Sounds good

[motorhead]

@Kristaps - what version are you playing with? I know post 2.01 (where they removed the unlimited charge bug) i've experience vastly fewer router kills. Previoiusly, I knew getting some cav in the path of routing spears meant many needless deaths, but post 2.01 i've no problem heaving some cav in front of most routing spears.

edit: I also recall, pre 2.01 that rear-charging with light/med cav was a double-edged sword. It would increase the chance of the enemy routing, but if they did rout, and were spears, those cav were gonna go thru a shredder

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (motorhead @ June 10 2004,22:57)]@Kristaps - what version are you playing with? I know post 2.01 (where they removed the unlimited charge bug) i've experience vastly fewer router kills. Previoiusly, I knew getting some cav in the path of routing spears meant many needless deaths, but post 2.01 i've no problem heaving some cav in front of most routing spears.

edit: I also recall, pre 2.01 that rear-charging with light/med cav was a double-edged sword. It would increase the chance of the enemy routing, but if they did rout, and were spears, those cav were gonna go thru a shredder
I am playing v 2.01: but still seeing frequent router kills (on hard and expert so that the AI get's attack/defense bonuses but those shouldn't be that significant). As to my units getting in the way of routers: the situation actually was not exactly like that. My knights were attacking the target frontally; they had no losses until the point when their target turned around and ran...

As to Katank's suggestion: yeah, I have thought about that too... Routing some to my advantage so my routers would get the killing bonus :)

[TigerVX]

In 1.1, once I was in a castle siege, and my reinforcement cavalry routed and tried to go to the castle. When they got to the gates they ran down alot of attackers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Hmmm. Fighting for your life, or fighting in a battle where you're pressed into service and don't want to be there?

No, I'm not surprised that routers can take a toll on units that are split up during the chase.

"Never press a desperate enemy too closely" -- Sun Tzu.

[Beirut]

Being a bona-fide woodsmen myself, all I can say is...

Never chase a man who has an axe. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[solypsist]

i thought this problem with killer-routers had been solved with the 2.01 patch.
what version of the game is this?

[katank]

even with 2.01, I have experienced the unfortunate router bug many times.

I think that they no longer enjoy unlimited/infinite charge bonus but still get the charge.

my knights often take quite a hit once the enemy that crumbled under their rear charge routs through them.

having heavy spears rout through my knights can mean as many as a score of dead knights.

I take care to rear attack heavy spears with swordsmen now.

[Doug-Thompson]

I don't think this is a bug. I wouldn't stand in the way of a bunch of men running for their lives. Desperation is courageous. People will do a lot of things out of fear that they'd never do from bravery.

[Red Harvest]

Quote[/b] (Beirut @ June 11 2004,17:17)]Being a bona-fide woodsmen myself, all I can say is...

Never chase a man who has an axe. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
I've cut my share of trees and am reasonably proficient with an axe...but if I were to the point of running for my life, I wouldn't be carrying that axe anymore. I figure if the axe wasn't doing me any good while I was facing them, it won't do me a lot of good while I've got my back to them. Historically, routers are known for leaving every piece of gear they own behind, slinging things off as they ran. Units that rout should have much depleted attack and defense if they rally--not because of morale, but because they will be lacking gear.

Reminds me of the story of two guys running from a bear. One stops and takes off his boots and puts on his running shoes. The other one commnents, "Those shoes won't be enough to outrun that bear." The fellow replies, "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun YOU."

Never ever let your heirs or generals get in front of enemy routers. I've learned that the hard way. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[motorhead]

this really leaves me scratching my head. Pre-2.01 i would get really burned up when my rear-charging turcoman horse would get chewed to pieces by routing spears, but with 2.01 i have no issues with doing this anymore. Sure, they still take some casualties, but nothing like before when a unit of turc-horse would sometimes itself get routed after suffering 20-30 casualties from routers - something i never see anymore.

Before the unit routed, perhaps 1/4-1/3 of the enemy unit was actively defending their rear, but with a rout, suddenly every man in the unit is taking a swipe as he tries to escape, odds are yer gonna suffer a few more casualties with all the bodies flying by.

Also, routers suffer -8 attack, which nullifies the charge bonus of even the most elite troops.

[katank]

@ motorhead.

are you sure about -8 attack?

it think it's only -8 defense.

they get killed easily but their charge etc. is still intact.

[motorhead]

bradybooks strat guide sez:
ADD 4 if the target is routing
OR
SUBTRACT 8 if the striker is routing

- which effectively makes routers -4 Def, -8 Attack.

- Which means even a RKs charge bonus is nullified when they're routing. I think the casualties (post-2.01) inflicted by routers are just raw numbers - suddenly every man is running towards the rear group taking a swing at anything in his path.

[katank]

I'm pretty sure whatever it is, it's -8 defense somewhere.

I personally don't really trust the brady guide as there were mistakes in it before IIRC.

[motorhead]

Well, if you can come up some reference to -8Def from a dev i'd believe it. I have an extensive but not complete archive of dev posts and have never seen -8D for routers. But everything listed in the Guides section regarding morale and attack/defense penalties are directly out of the bradybooks guide. So, if the official strat guide is questionable, then everything regarding morale and combat modifiers and even how the 'to-kill' chance is calculated is questionable.

[Kristaps]

a clarification - my discontent is not about routers gettin their occasional kills but about the fact that, in this case, they could not kill anything during the fight and suddenly were able to do so while routing, suggesting an attack bonus for routing troops...

just a repeat: there were only two units involved in this fight: a frontal charging knights' unit (mine) and woodsmen (the target). the woodsmen had no kills whatsover until the very moment they started routing...

[eds]

I'm on 2.01 and have seen routers kill non-routing troops, when the routers ran through them. Most of the time though, the routers try to avoid running into anything, so it's pretty rare and usually I just scoop up the prisoners from behind.

[katank]

@motorhead, I can't seem to find the -8D reference but -8A just doesn't make sense.

as you pointed out, that would be enough to negate the charge of any unit and thus we shouldn't see nearly as many router kills.

I shouldn't see half my unit destroyed when an enemy ones routs through them.

[soibean]

I can understand how routers can kill a few men if they run... like one of the posts said above if a man is running for his life or freedom and he's all by himself there is less holding him back then when he is within his own unit and feeling a bit safer

but my problem is when you have units who are fleeing and would have NO chance whatsoever even if cornered and they take you down nonetheless... Example: I sent some royal knights against some archers. The archers fled the moment my knights surged into their ranks and my knights took their time ripping the archers apart. Now my force started with a number of 21, being the king and all, and when they finished they were down to 10

First off all I dont care who you are, if you're unarmored, unarmed ( I dont think you'll worry about lugging along your arrows and bow when there is a fully armored knight on horse back chasing you down and ready to crush your skull in ), and running around blindly I highly doubt you could take on anyone who is armed with anything above a stick.

[Papewaio]

A cornered animal is far more deadly.

It makes sense that when they are routing and you are in their way they will fight as they see they have nothing to lose.

This is also modeled in beach landings where there is no retreat the units get morale bonuses.

I think it is a good feature and if anything is a little weak.

I generally chase down routers not head them off at the pass so to speak so it minimises my casualties. But the times I have cornered them I have paid for it.

---- EDIT ----

Read Sun Tzu.

He says always leave a line of retreat (or at least one that appears to be a line of retreat) as the enemy will fight far harder if they believe they have no chance of escape.

Also look at recent examples like Warsaw Ghettos and The Welsh Guard vs Zulus etc